Amtrak, Energy, Pipelines

[RRUserious]

After seeing how frac sand in Wisconsin is leading to repair of rail lines, I started to wonder. Did the administration block the oil pipeline as a devious way of forcing money into railroads? I think i t is apparent that the petroleum industry would much prefer to just have oil travel in pipelines which involve a lot less infrastructure and employment than moving energy by railroad cars. And I am guessing there are a lot of unrelated issues, but there's no question that the push for clean energy has implicatons in railroading. Just as the push for coal depots on the west coast have to be related to phasing out coal as a fuel for electric generation.

Probably none of it bodes well for rail TRAVEL, though shoddy tracks certainly are a downside for comfort and timeliness in travel. I know that things in America don't travel in straight lines, so that's why I wonder about the oil trains and the pipeline that got, shall we say, "sidetracked".

 

[Nathanael]

Well, BNSF has proposed leasing out the space over its railroad lines for major electric transmission corridors, in exchange for being allowed to use the electricity to power its trains. If, for instance, a giant solar farm was built in the Arizona desert, this might work out very well for travel. That's the only scenario I've seen where the trends in energy will directly benefit rail travel (as opposed to indirectly benefiting it by driving more passengers to trains).

 

[transit54]

After seeing how frac sand in Wisconsin is leading to repair of rail lines, I started to wonder. Did the administration block the oil pipeline as a devious way of forcing money into railroads? I think i t is apparent that the petroleum industry would much prefer to just have oil travel in pipelines which involve a lot less infrastructure and employment than moving energy by railroad cars. And I am guessing there are a lot of unrelated issues, but there's no question that the push for clean energy has implicatons in railroading. Just as the push for coal depots on the west coast have to be related to phasing out coal as a fuel for electric generation.

Probably none of it bodes well for rail TRAVEL, though shoddy tracks certainly are a downside for comfort and timeliness in travel. I know that things in America don't travel in straight lines, so that's why I wonder about the oil trains and the pipeline that got, shall we say, "sidetracked".

No. The administration postponed the pipeline decision (I believe a formal ruling won't come until after the election) because they are stuck between a base with strong environmental reservations about using oil derived from tar sands and not wanting to be seen as raising fuel prices or hurting the economy. That's all there is to it, there's no railroad implications intended at all. To the extent that freight railroad traffic increases, it generally creates further difficulties for running additional Amtrak trains.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So far as I'm aware tar sand oil is just about the dirtiest form of energy the world has ever known. That we're still moving forward in a big way with such a fuel source in an era of supposedly enlightened thinking is truly appalling and dispiriting to me.

 

[AlanB]

After seeing how frac sand in Wisconsin is leading to repair of rail lines, I started to wonder. Did the administration block the oil pipeline as a devious way of forcing money into railroads? I think i t is apparent that the petroleum industry would much prefer to just have oil travel in pipelines which involve a lot less infrastructure and employment than moving energy by railroad cars. And I am guessing there are a lot of unrelated issues, but there's no question that the push for clean energy has implicatons in railroading. Just as the push for coal depots on the west coast have to be related to phasing out coal as a fuel for electric generation.

Probably none of it bodes well for rail TRAVEL, though shoddy tracks certainly are a downside for comfort and timeliness in travel. I know that things in America don't travel in straight lines, so that's why I wonder about the oil trains and the pipeline that got, shall we say, "sidetracked".

No. The administration postponed the pipeline decision (I believe a formal ruling won't come until after the election) because they are stuck between a base with strong environmental reservations about using oil derived from tar sands and not wanting to be seen as raising fuel prices or hurting the economy. That's all there is to it, there's no railroad implications intended at all. To the extent that freight railroad traffic increases, it generally creates further difficulties for running additional Amtrak trains.

Another part of the equation is also the fact that the publicity on the new pipeline is that it will help lower prices here in the US, especially in the mid-west. But internal documents showed that the primary reason that the oil companies wanted the pipeline was so they could send the oil down to the gulf and from there be able to ship it to wherever they could get the best price for their oil.

So we the people would be stuck with the environmental issues & concerns, as well as other considerations, and yet we might or might not actually benefit from the oil.

 

[RRUserious]

Another part of the equation is also the fact that the publicity on the new pipeline is that it will help lower prices here in the US, especially in the mid-west. But internal documents showed that the primary reason that the oil companies wanted the pipeline was so they could send the oil down to the gulf and from there be able to ship it to wherever they could get the best price for their oil.
So we the people would be stuck with the environmental issues & concerns, as well as other considerations, and yet we might or might not actually benefit from the oil.

Sounds like a rerun of the North Slope oil history. Every intrusion is going to lower our imports. No intrusion ever does.

 

[PRR 60]

Another part of the equation is also the fact that the publicity on the new pipeline is that it will help lower prices here in the US, especially in the mid-west. But internal documents showed that the primary reason that the oil companies wanted the pipeline was so they could send the oil down to the gulf and from there be able to ship it to wherever they could get the best price for their oil.
So we the people would be stuck with the environmental issues & concerns, as well as other considerations, and yet we might or might not actually benefit from the oil.

Sounds like a rerun of the North Slope oil history. Every intrusion is going to lower our imports. No intrusion ever does.

Actually, USA oil imports have been declining since 2005 in both absolute volume and percentage. Imports now are at the lowest point since 1999. In 2005 we imported 60% of the oil consumed. This year it will be about 42%. Canada and Mexico are the primary sources for imported oil.

 

[Nathanael]

Actually, USA oil imports have been declining since 2005 in both absolute volume and percentage. Imports now are at the lowest point since 1999. In 2005 we imported 60% of the oil consumed. This year it will be about 42%. Canada and Mexico are the primary sources for imported oil.

This is, more or less, because US oil consumption has been declining since 2005. (This is on the whole a good thing, but a large part of it is due to the Depression which started in 2008, which is not a good thing.) Obviously when consumption declines, imported sources are turned off first, in order to minimize transportation costs.

 

[NW cannonball]

Living here in Saint Paul the local news is about the several trains loads of sand per week that get sent to Texas to be turned into "frac" sand.

Some local "activists" fear the sand trains from Wisconsin might be leaking "silica dust" -- me -- "What - me worry" not likely any problem with the raw course sand.

Just another local point of view.

I do wish that they get the pipeline done -- there are several crude trains per day thru here which is slowing down all traffic here at MSP. Where are these NoDak crude trains going - what refinery and where?

 

[PRR 60]

Living here in Saint Paul the local news is about the several trains loads of sand per week that get sent to Texas to be turned into "frac" sand.

Some local "activists" fear the sand trains from Wisconsin might be leaking "silica dust" -- me -- "What - me worry" not likely any problem with the raw course sand.

Just another local point of view.

I do wish that they get the pipeline done -- there are several crude trains per day thru here which is slowing down all traffic here at MSP. Where are these NoDak crude trains going - what refinery and where?

At least some of those crude trains end up in southern NJ and Delaware. Refineries in Delaware City, DE and Paulsboro, NJ are processing Bakken oil shipped by rail from the Williston Basin.

 

[NW cannonball]

So far as I'm aware tar sand oil is just about the dirtiest form of energy the world has ever known. That we're still moving forward in a big way with such a fuel source in an era of supposedly enlightened thinking is truly appalling and dispiriting to me.

Yup. But for Saskatchewan or Alberta wherever it's a wonderful subsidized thing. Every year or two the Port of Duluth lands another humongous extractor - reactor thing that needs a specialized train a month to move it - can only move these monstrous overload extractor things when the ground is frozen -- the things move thru Duluth because they are too big to cross the West Coast ranges or the Rockies on their way from Japan. Google Schnabel car and Duluth and reactor to see what the peripheral beneficiaries of the tar sands are getting.

 

[NW cannonball]

Living here in Saint Paul the local news is about the several trains loads of sand per week that get sent to Texas to be turned into "frac" sand.

Some local "activists" fear the sand trains from Wisconsin might be leaking "silica dust" -- me -- "What - me worry" not likely any problem with the raw course sand.

Just another local point of view.

I do wish that they get the pipeline done -- there are several crude trains per day thru here which is slowing down all traffic here at MSP. Where are these NoDak crude trains going - what refinery and where?

At least some of those crude trains end up in southern NJ and Delaware. Refineries in Delaware City, DE and Paulsboro, NJ are processing Bakken oil shipped by rail from the Williston Basin.

Well, good to hear that transport costs are low enough to ship the crude a thousand miles to under-utilized refineries - I think -- ? --

Thanks for the info.