Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[Train2104]

Until we see details of the proposed points:dollar ratios for redemptions, we don't really know if this is a good deal or a bad deal. We can sure guess which way it will go, but we do not know for sure. It will certainly have an impact on those who enjoyed putting together a one or two zone meandering sleeper adventure, but it could actually help someone who lives in an area like Pittsburgh where even a mid-length trip to Chicago or Minneapolis required two zones.

There will be winners and losers. We just don't know how many of each.

And there's another variable that can be changed - points earned per dollar spent. Both VIA and the airlines do this, giving you 4 or 5 or more points per dollar spent on premium accommodations...

 

[jebr]

That being said, the lowest fare on Southwest (WGA) earns six points per dollar spent. Higher fares earn more points per dollar.

It's possible that AGR will re-work the points earned per dollar of travel, but I don't see Amtrak going too much lower than a "ten cent value" per dollar spent on Amtrak travel, especially for sleeper, business, and first class. Saver fares may have a lower points earning ratio. Credit cards will almost certainly have a lower earning value on general spend than they do now, which may mean a shift in my credit card use habits.

 

[jis]

And there's another variable that can be changed - points earned per dollar spent. Both VIA and the airlines do this, giving you 4 or 5 or more points per dollar spent on premium accommodations...

Also based on status.
If they don't go below 10c per point on redemption then I guess the point purchase bonanzas of yore a re history too.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It's been a nice run, but all good things must end. I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.

Same here. Best of luck to Amtrak but with prices marching up and service sliding down I'm finding it harder and harder to include them in my trip planning. A big AGR devaluation on top of that would only make it that much easier to move on.

Until we see details of the proposed points:dollar ratios for redemptions, we don't really know if this is a good deal or a bad deal. We can sure guess which way it will go, but we do not know for sure. It will certainly have an impact on those who enjoyed putting together a one or two zone meandering sleeper adventure, but it could actually help someone who lives in an area like Pittsburgh where even a mid-length trip to Chicago or Minneapolis required two zones. There will be winners and losers. We just don't know how many of each.

I think we can safely assume that while there are likely to be new sweet spots the net impact is likely to be negative. I've yet to see a major loyalty program change that was objectively net positive or even net neutral. My advice is to spend your fiat points now and refocus on growing some fiat currencies instead. At least in that case you can sometimes come out ahead of the game.

 

[printman2000]

It's been a nice run, but all good things must end.

I think that jebr is too optimistic about the future exchange rate. A five cents per point redemption rate won't work if you can buy points for less than that. Two cents per point seems more likely, or even lower. I think that we're looking at a major devaluation for sleeper redemptions, so I plan to use up my points under the old dispensation.

I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.

I am feeling the same way.

 

[City of Miami]

I wonder if we'll have a phase in period to make future reservations at the current rate (burn points :help: ) like there was when the bedroom redemption rate went up.

I also wonder what "higher value AGR co-branded credit card" means. Does that mean annual fee?

 

[jebr]

After further speculation in my head (which is all I have ) both earning and redemption will have a higher point value/cost - for example, a point may be able to be redeemed for 50 points/$1, but a person will earn 5 points per dollar spent on Amtrak. The opportunity cost of buying points will almost certainly be diminished to almost zero (maybe with some bonuses nice to get a few extra points to round out a redemption, but certainly not like it is today where buying all the points for a redemption is cheaper than paying cash for it.)

I can dream that they will "rebalance" the accounts to something better if points are devalued a significant amount, but we shall see how much that dream plays out.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I wonder if we'll have a phase in period to make future reservations at the current rate (burn points :help: ) like there was when the bedroom redemption rate went up.

I also wonder what "higher value AGR co-branded credit card" means. Does that mean annual fee?

You have till Dec 31 of 2015 for sure., Since the New AGR II kicks in Jan 2016 well see???

Yep on the Credit Cards, there will be 2 types,and almost certain to be from BOA!!!

 

[City of Miami]

Looks like DA's grim warnings will be vindicated. He told us so!

Amtrak is gradually eliminating ways to screw the system [e.g., taking a $3000 trip for the point equivalent of $400] which we rail fans have enjoyed for years. It's the American way.

 

[jis]

All so called improvements in these loyalty plans are usually improvement from the perspective of the vendor and not from the perspective of the consumer. The marketing sugarcoating that it comes with is interesting to watch. But basically each has to figure out their own niche in the new eco-system to make it work the best for them, or worst case just abandon the whole thing.

I have managed to find myself a useable niche within the new United Mileage Plus eco-system, which for me is not too horrible compared to the pre-change eco-system. Hopefully I will be able to find such in the new AGR II eco-system too.

Due to my otherwise changing circumstances, I am already reducing my use of Amtrak to about half of what it was last year, and will have to make an effort to make Select+. Basically not living within a 50 mile perimeter of any Amtrak station, and said station having only two trains a day each way, has such an effect. This proposed change now puts into question whether I should even bother. I hope they come out with details sooner rather than later.

 

[Anderson]

On the one hand, from a management perspective I understand the reasoning behind the changes. Quite a bit about this makes sense from a whole slew of perspectives, and in some respects this was probably overdue.

On the other hand, while I know that the talk of "improving value" an so forth is boilerplate...assuming a devaluation to around $.02/point, I find it hard not to take it personally when someone mentions that they are improving a program by removing the best aspects of it. I wouldn't be put off by a blunt announcement to the effect of "Look, this is costing us too much versus what it is "supposed" to cost us due to some of those loophole trips", but trying to BS-speak their way through this one...honestly, I'm inclined to post a public rant on FT followed by a PM to AGRInsider saying "Look, this really isn't personal and please don't take it that way".

I'll probably still end up knocking my way to SE, but while I intend to get the new CC...it may literally become an "Amtrak only" card with my Virgin card (or even my Citi cash back card) taking most of the load. That being said...I'm actually sorely tempted to not bother with SE and just cash out a huge number of my points throughout the rest of the year...and I know I'm probably not the only one looking at that. I think the big question comes with those upgrade cards...if there ends up being some way to cash them (or whatever replaces them) in for something on the LD trains, that's the only way I can actually see something substantially positive coming out of this pile.

 

[alben]

[SIZE=13.3333330154419px]Marketing speak is such an insult to our intelligence. Revenue based. Translation: rewards program gutted.[/SIZE]
End of the tracks for the long distance sleeper rewards at a great point value.
I'll get the new Bank of America AGR credit cards (personal and business cards) when they become available (if they have high enough of a sign-up bonus), make the minimum spend, use the points to make reservations before Jan 1, and sock drawer the cards.
Time to work on airline and hotel points instead.

 

[jis]

All the airline and hotel cards have exactly the same issues. They are no walk in the park either.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Marketing speak is such an insult to our intelligence. Revenue based. Translation: rewards program gutted.

End of the tracks for the long distance sleeper rewards at a great point value.

I'll get the new Bank of America AGR credit cards (personal and business cards) when they become available (if they have high enough of a sign-up bonus), make the minimum spend, use the points to make reservations before Jan 1, and sock drawer the cards.

Time to work on airline and hotel points instead.

So far as I can tell the're all heading in the same basic direction.

 

[calwatch]

It's an interesting precedent to see what other revenue based programs are in terms of redemption values. They are generally in the 5-12% rebate category - Southwest is roughly at 10%, JetBlue at 9%, and hotel programs are in the 5-8% range (although they aren't true cost based redemptions, the categories for hotels roughly correspond to their regular pricing).


Remember AGR has always been revenue based for earning - 2 points for each dollar spent with the 100 point minimum. This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning. I would expect that premium AGR members to get better redemption values, and paying the annual fee for the platinum credit card will probably grant you select or select+ status similar to airline and hotel premium cards. Even on Southwest there are sweet spots (i.e., using the Companion Pass and always redeeming for the cheapest fare, which has a higher value per point), but they are not as good as a fixed value redemption system.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning.[/size]

That's precisely the problem. The ability to arbitrage was the key to making use of AGR. Soon it will be little more than generic rebate system. Kind of like a cash back card, but with a lower opportunity value and more restrictions on use.

I would expect that premium AGR members to get better redemption values, and paying the annual fee for the platinum credit card will probably grant you select or select+ status similar to airline and hotel premium cards.

I'm not aware of any airline cards which grant genuine status. Instead they grant some sort of imaginary status that is still trumped by the lowest actual status tier. There are a couple hotel cards which grant actual status, but we're talking about the lowest tiers which already struggle to remain relevant no matter how you earned them. Even cards with annual fees of several hundred dollars are struggling to remain relevant in today's heavily diluted loyalty market.

Even on Southwest there are sweet spots (i.e., using the Companion Pass and always redeeming for the cheapest fare, which has a higher value per point), but they are not as good as a fixed value redemption system.

The Companion Pass is a great tool but we should keep in mind that it's a holdover from the OLD Rapid Rewards system. It is not a new sweet spot that came about recently and over a long enough timeline it too will be devalued.

 

[jis]

As for the new CC, I need to see what it comes with, the bold and the fine print, before I decide.

If it is a BofA card, then it will be my first. So at least no one will try to reduce my line of credit on some other card. Although somehow that did not seem to be an issue when Chase gave me the Marriott Reward Visa, but they created a big stink when they gave me the original United Explorer or whatever the heck it was called card.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I've surprised by that jis since you're a frequent World Traveler for Business and pleasure with a stable job!. ( and I know you're not on Food stamps since you lived in High Buck Jersey and moved to Florida. )

I have two Chase Cards and never had any hassle with Chase.(and used to have an AMEX when I traveled all the time back in the day!)

Now I am retired and have good Credit but a Small Fixed Income.

I still get unwanted offers and solicitations from Financial Institutions all the time, and they go straight into the shredder!

I too will look closely @ the offer, but it would have to be worth it to take their Card. For sure I'll keep ,@ least One Chase Card even if I do get one of the new BOA AGR Cards.( Annual Fees do nothing for me as little as I travel now!)

 

[SanDiegan]

It's probably another plot to benefit the NEC

 

[Anderson]

I've worked up a bit of a tirade that I'm going to put up over on FT, but...the more I think about it, I'm split between three options on the card:
(1) Get the card, use the same as now.

(2) Get the card, milk for the bonus, only use strictly for Amtrak travel.

(3) Don't get the card.

Amid the overhaul, I've come to the pained conclusion that a straight cash-back-with-2%-on-travel card might be a better deal for me if we end up with some sort of 1.5x card in a gutted AGR.

 

[SteveSFL]

I thought one post mentioned the new program would start Sept 1, 2015 for redemptions after Jan 1, 2016. Any speculation on if redemptions for travel next year would need to be redeemed before Sept 1, 2015 to be under the new program?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've worked up a bit of a tirade that I'm going to put up over on FT, but...the more I think about it, I'm split between three options on the card:

(1) Get the card, use the same as now.

(2) Get the card, milk for the bonus, only use strictly for Amtrak travel.

(3) Don't get the card.

(4) Get the card, unlock the bonus, remit full payment, shred and toss card, close the credit line at eleven month mark.

Amid the overhaul, I've come to the pained conclusion that a straight cash-back-with-2%-on-travel card might be a better deal for me if we end up with some sort of 1.5x card in a gutted AGR.

I would agree that at this point cash based kickback cards seem to be the best overall option. The monkey point program cards are only useful for unlocking the humongous signup bonus and then trashing.

 

[Ryan]

Call me crazy, but I'm going to wait until we know a little bit more (like earning and redeeming rates) before passing judgement.

I agree that on net, it'll be a better deal for the company and that the super good deal of a last minute, high dollar bedroom for cheap on points are probably gone, but there will probably be some places where there is still a good deal to be had.

 

[SteveSFL]

I like the part about being able to self-book online, but I'll believe that when I see it!

 

[BCL]

All I know is that the 100-point minimum per segment did kind of influence me to work over the system even if I didn't outright game it. That RIC-EMY-SFC trip with my kid was a little more than taking BART, but my kid loves trains. I liked the EMY-OKJ-GAC trip because it started later, I could grab coffee at Blue Bottle, and I got 100 more points. And apply the Levi's Stadium discount.

I'd like to see the document, but it's apparently been wiped from the OCTA server. So LOSSAN is using the OCTA servers to host their stuff? They're the joint powers authority that operates the Pacific Surfliner, right?