Amtrak LD trains always carry two engines

[dlagrua]

I always wondered why Amtrak always used two engines on most of their long distance routes. The consists on most of these trains are only 8 cars so why is so much pulling power required? The only logical conclusion that I can make is that they are there for redundancy. This way if one engine fails the other can take over, or is it that they use one and switch to the other when one engine runs low on fuel? They also could be there to help generate additional hotel power for the train but it remains a mystery to me.

On the recent Cardinal trip North that we were on, the NE Regional stalled in front of us at Charlottesville, VA. The Crecent backed up to a crossover switch came along side and detached one engine so the regional could get going again. When the Crescent finally resumed its journey, we noticed no decrease in the A.C. or electical system, nor the speed of the train, and everything including the toilets seemed to work fine. We were getting off at the next stop and didn't check if the diner car was still operational but this episode left more questions than answers. Does anyone know the exact reason that Amtrak uses two engines on most LD trains?

 

[TVRM610]

A few months ago when I rode the Crescent they had to take a locomotive off in Atlanta because it kept shutting off the Head end Power. Someone asked the Conductor what that would mean for the rest of the trip and she said that since the 1 locomotive would be working alot harder they would have to stop and take on fuel en route, which they did (some freight yard in the middle of the night, this was prob. a 20-30 minute delay since the train had to stop, be routed into the fueling track, get fueled, and then get back onto the main). She also said the locomotive would have slightly lowered speed and acceleration once we got into some of the grades in Virginia.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Texas Eagles run with Only One Engine most of the Time which is Surprising since Most of the Route is through the Hills of Arkansas and Missouri in the Middle of the Night in the Middle of Nowwhere! Occasionaly there will be a second Engine when one is being Repositioned or Extra Cars are being Carried! (ie PVs or an Extra Sleeper or Coach or Hospital Cars!).

Several Times Ive been on this Train when there were Engine Problems and Waiting on an UP or BNSF Freight Engine to Rescue you isn't a Rapid Thing when the Train is in the Middle of Nowhere in the Middle of the Night! :help: IMO ALL LD Trains Shoud have Two Engines, maybe even Three in the Case of the Builder, Zephyr and Chief!

 

[Amtrak George]

CITY OF NEW ORLEANS: Unfortunately on the Amtrak train nearest me, they usually use only one unit. This is a bad idea, as there is no back up in the event of engine failure. This is especially true because if Head End Power fails you are ruined.

I grew up around the ICRR and GM&O RR, and on long runs they regularly used at least 2 units on passenger trains so they could limp in if one failed. (also in days before AMTK the RRs often had protect engines in places on the system).

IIRC, most other long AMTK runs use at least 2 units.

 

[Amtrak George]

I stand corrected about one thing, the Texas Eagle I believe also uses just one unit, and last I heard they share trainsets with the City of New Orleans.

 

[amtkstn]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

 

[Trogdor]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

That only happened in the days of roadrailers and Amfreight. Nowadays, it's two all the way through.

Eastern trains could get away with one, and for a while, the Silver Service just had one per train. You take an acceleration penalty with just one unit.

While it's true that in "the good old days" the railroads used two engines, they also, as far as I know, didn't have 4250 horsepower engines either.

 

[rrdude]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

That only happened in the days of roadrailers and Amfreight. Nowadays, it's two all the way through.

Eastern trains could get away with one, and for a while, the Silver Service just had one per train. You take an acceleration penalty with just one unit.

While it's true that in "the good old days" the railroads used two engines, they also, as far as I know, didn't have 4250 horsepower engines either.

Trogs spot on.In the "good ole days" when many pax trains sported E-units on the head end, you'd see, two (elephant-style or end-to-end) or even three if they had the B-units available. But remember EACH of these units only put out (depends on year, model, etc.) between 1,800 and maybe 2,500 HP, or roughly half of Amtrak's engines today. (granted, no HP was needed either)

I think most host RR either strongly urge, or require Amtrak to run two locos when possible. It's in everyone's best interest to do so, especially given the state of scheduled maint that Amtrak has to suffer with.

 

[me_little_me]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

Not true. We took the Chief from ABQ to Kansas City last summer. It was 4 hours late coming into ABQ because its single engine broke down and it had to be pulled into ABQ by a BNSF engine. When it got there, the BNSF and Amtrak engines were removed and one new Amtrak engine was added. We left with one engine (and had to fill up just before Kansas City).

 

[nolatron]

I took the City of New Orleans from Chicago Union Station with only one engine May 2010.

I've also seen the Sunset Limited depart New Orleans with only a single engine in recent months.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

I think most host RR either strongly urge, or require Amtrak to run two locos when possible. It's in everyone's best interest to do so, especially given the state of scheduled maint that Amtrak has to suffer with.

I notice that the Empire Builder usually runs with three locomotives during the winter season. Is this something that BNSF has asked of Amtrak?

 

[Bierboy]

I think most host RR either strongly urge, or require Amtrak to run two locos when possible. It's in everyone's best interest to do so, especially given the state of scheduled maint that Amtrak has to suffer with.

I notice that the Empire Builder usually runs with three locomotives during the winter season. Is this something that BNSF has asked of Amtrak?

We took the EB in early March this year -- only two locos...

 

[cirdan]

I guess redundancy comes into it, but also the ease or difficulty with which a rescue engine can be sent if needed.

I've seen the Silvers, the Crescent and the Texas Eagle all with one engine. I don't know how typical that is though.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

I think most host RR either strongly urge, or require Amtrak to run two locos when possible. It's in everyone's best interest to do so, especially given the state of scheduled maint that Amtrak has to suffer with.

I notice that the Empire Builder usually runs with three locomotives during the winter season. Is this something that BNSF has asked of Amtrak?

We took the EB in early March this year -- only two locos...

This is what I saw the month before in February and have seen on other occassions. Does anyone know if it's a BNSF mandate or just prudence on Amtrak's part given the tempestuous weather on the Hi Line?

 

[RCrierie]

This is what I saw the month before in February and have seen on other occassions. Does anyone know if it's a BNSF mandate or just prudence on Amtrak's part given the tempestuous weather on the Hi Line?

CR&S: Awesome photos, especially of the train waiting in the snow! How long did you have to wait? Must have been an awesome delay.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This is what I saw the month before in February and have seen on other occassions. Does anyone know if it's a BNSF mandate or just prudence on Amtrak's part given the tempestuous weather on the Hi Line?

I haven't heard of too many Amtrak engines felled by weather alone. It seems the vast majority of failures occur due to poor maintenance or improper rebuilds. I mean, when several engines suddenly burst into flames in the span of a few months what else do you call that? Hail damage? <_<

 

[printman2000]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

Not true. We took the Chief from ABQ to Kansas City last summer. It was 4 hours late coming into ABQ because its single engine broke down and it had to be pulled into ABQ by a BNSF engine. When it got there, the BNSF and Amtrak engines were removed and one new Amtrak engine was added. We left with one engine (and had to fill up just before Kansas City).

Yup, they do not add a third unit to the SWC just for Raton. It is not needed. In fact, one trip over the pass I was one, ONE BNSF unit dragged the whole train and two dead Amtrak locos over the pass. Fortunately, HEP was still running on one of them.

 

[Pat Harper]

I stand corrected about one thing, the Texas Eagle I believe also uses just one unit, and last I heard they share trainsets with the City of New Orleans.

George, the Texas Eagle shares trainsets with the Sunset Limited, not the City of New Orleans. The Sunset Limited meets up with the Texas Eagle in SAS.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

George, the Texas Eagle shares trainsets with the Sunset Limited, not the City of New Orleans. The Sunset Limited meets up with the Texas Eagle in SAS.

No, George is correct. Only two cars are shared between the TE and SL. The bulk of the consist is shared with the CONO, just not through SAS.

 

[AlanB]

The LSL, Auto Train, and EB all require 2 engines simply due to the fact of how many cars they are hauling. Without a second engine, acceleration from a stop would be very poor and would gradually snow ball into a late train. Any other Amtrak train crossing mountains also needs a second engine in order to make the climb at a reasonable rate of speed; that would include the Capitol, Zephyr, Starlight, & SW Chief. The Sunset is probably borderline, so it generally gets a second engine.

But that leaves the Crescent, Silvers, City, and the Eagle all of which could run with one engine. As other's have noted, the wisdom of doing so is very debatable, especially considering the failure rate of the P42's. And in fact, because of that failure rate, CSX now requires Amtrak to always have 2 locos on all LD's that run on CSX tracks. That "agreement" has been in effect now for about 3 or 4 years IIRC.

Finally, I've heard it said that providing HEP steals about 300 to 350 HP off the 4,250 that the P42 can provide. So an engine providing HEP has less traction power with which to move the train, and therefore accelerates more slowly from stops and can't climb mountains as well especially as you add more cars. It is not possible to provide HEP from more than one engine at the same time. Generally, barring any problems or mechanical issues, the engineer will generally set the second engine to provide HEP so as to make the first engine where they're sitting quieter when not moving.

 

[AlanB]

George, the Texas Eagle shares trainsets with the Sunset Limited, not the City of New Orleans. The Sunset Limited meets up with the Texas Eagle in SAS.

No, George is correct. Only two cars are shared between the TE and SL. The bulk of the consist is shared with the CONO, just not through SAS.

Pat,

What George is saying is that the cars from the City of NOL that arrived into Chicago this morning, will go out this afternoon as the Texas Eagle. And the cars from the Eagle arriving into Chicago today, will be cleaned and go out as the City tonight.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

And in fact, because of that failure rate, CSX now requires Amtrak to always have 2 locos on all LD's that run on CSX tracks. That "agreement" has been in effect now for about 3 or 4 years IIRC.

What about the frequency of 3 locos on the Empire Builder during winter? Does BNSF formally request that Amtrak adds that third unit?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

And in fact, because of that failure rate, CSX now requires Amtrak to always have 2 locos on all LD's that run on CSX tracks. That "agreement" has been in effect now for about 3 or 4 years IIRC.

What about the frequency of 3 locos on the Empire Builder during winter? Does BNSF formally request that Amtrak adds that third unit?

Which 3 locos (members) are you talking about? :giggle:

 

[zephyr17]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

Not true. We took the Chief from ABQ to Kansas City last summer. It was 4 hours late coming into ABQ because its single engine broke down and it had to be pulled into ABQ by a BNSF engine. When it got there, the BNSF and Amtrak engines were removed and one new Amtrak engine was added. We left with one engine (and had to fill up just before Kansas City).

3 and 4 always take fuel at Argentine Yard, just west of KC.

 

[jdcnosse]

The SWC allways has two locomotive pulling it. To get over Raton Pass a third locomotive is added at La Junta Colorado and taken off at Albuquerque.

Both times I took it this past spring it had the two locomotives, plus all the other cars. Didn't add any though.