Amtrak Petition to save Special Trains

[TiBike]

Don't know how common carrier obligations work specifically for railroads, but in my industry, telecoms, the general principle is that any given service is priced the same way for everybody, and any one who wants a given service can get it, so long as there's sufficient capacity. It doesn't obligate a telco to offer any particular service in any particular location, although other regulatory obligations, such as with (publicly subsidised) universal service programs, might.

Not all services offered by a telco are common carrier services. Some, such as plain old telephone service - POTS - are, some aren't. Assuming the FCC's December decision takes effect as planned (still a couple of procedural hurdles to go), broadband will no longer be a common carrier service.

The nearest analogy to rail that I can think of is long haul fiber. Company X might have fiber that runs from point A to B to C, but even if it offers service between A and C, it doesn't have to offer anything in B. Anyone can buy service between A and C at the tariffed rates so long as there's capacity, but there are a hundred exceptions (e.g. sales and promotions) to the tariffs.

 

[jis]

Indeed. My experience with common carrier rules are entirely from the Telco perspective. since I worked at Bell Labs for 12 years or so, 8 of them on the telephony side. That is why I am trying to wrap my head around the Railroad perspective based on legal precedents and case law and am for now ignoring random personal opinions [emoji57]

BTW, I do agree with your description of the situation in telephony based on my own knowledge and formal training.

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[xyzzy]

I'm not signing the petition. Although I used to work safety on Southern steam excursions (more than I can count) and have been on PVs and have ridden diesel-powered Amtrak excursions, I don't consider any of those essential. Steam trains, PVs, and rare mileage collection are not my passion.

I would like to see useful, reasonably reliable and regularly scheduled passenger rail service in the U.S. And I think we're a long way from an optimum use of taxpayer money toward that end. If pulling the plug on Amtrak's sideline businesses moves us even one inch toward that goal, let it be so.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Freight railroads will happily move cars as long as they are not occupied, or if the owner of the car carries the requisite insurance for cars carrying people.

Frankly this bru ha ha has mostly to do with getting Amtrak insurance coverage or not as far as I can see.

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I'm not sure if that's true. And if it's true, im not sure they actually make it possible.
I don't think Amtrak should be forced to haul private cars around. But I think private car owners should have a reasonable way to move their rail cars over an interstate transportation system.

 

[jis]

I am sure it is quite possible that the freight railroads make life hard. [emoji57]

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[PVD]

It is very likely that some people have a very different notion of what "common carrier obligations" are to what it actually means under the laws of today. In most cases, agreeing to a set schedule and pricing and subjecting oneself to regulation does not obligate me to engage in a specific business segment. Can Amtrak haul freight/ In most cases, yes. Does it, should it, and is it obligated to, no. Is there anything in AMTRAK's enabling legislation that obligates it to engage in this particular business segment/ I don't know. Personally, I would like to see them stay in this type of service, but I do not know if there is any legal principle (that applies today) that obligates it.

 

[TiBike]

Indeed. My experience with common carrier rules are entirely from the Telco perspective. since I worked at Bell Labs for 12 years or so, 8 of them on the telephony side. That is why I am trying to wrap my head around the Railroad perspective based on legal precedents and case law and am for now ignoring random personal opinions [emoji57]

BTW, I do agree with your description of the situation in telephony based on my own knowledge and formal training.

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Which lab were you at? I worked as a summer intern at Piscataway back in the 70s -- a wonderful experience.

 

[seat38a]

Does anyone else think the whole petition wording sounds like justifying taking from one pocket to line the other? Take from Amtrak so others can earn a profit. Also this part:

Freight railroads will often move private cars, but in many cases charge astronomically high rates and do not handle the cars properly, resulting in expensive damage.

So what damages do the freights cause? Or is that part just put in to justifying not wanting to pay the "astronomically high rates?" After reading it over twice and after experiencing delays and power outages on Amtrak related to the PV's, I decided not to sign.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Seems strange that the flyboy-in-chief has decided to take on two groups --- railfans and private car owners -- that are among Amtrak's biggest supporters and the ones most likely to take Amtrak's side to their congressmen. He's already alienated students and veterans by eliminating discounts and regular riders of the Coast Starlight, diners on the CONO and CL and sleeping car passengers in general, what's next, dropping the NARP discount? I sure hope there's some grand plan behind all this that will actually improve service.

 

[KmH]

Why would they want to improve service?

As service has declined ridership has continued to grow.

Why screw with a zero sum game?

 

[PVD]

Chefs on the CONO have been gone for quite some time. I am not sure about the discount elimination, do we have any real numbers as to how many people actually used those discounts, so we can try and figure if they actually caused a ridership drop? Right now we are only guessing. Not sure most students care, and other than a few vocal ones that may well apply to lots of veterans. Many of them will be eligible for senior anyway, so it wouldn't be a radical change in fare. People act like he's doing this on his own in some kind of a vacuum, more likely, he is carrying out the plans and strategies the board hired him to.

 

[seat38a]

Chefs on the CONO have been gone for quite some time. I am not sure about the discount elimination, do we have any real numbers as to how many people actually used those discounts, so we can try and figure if they actually caused a ridership drop? Right now we are only guessing. Not sure most students care, and other than a few vocal ones that may well apply to lots of veterans. Many of them will be eligible for senior anyway, so it wouldn't be a radical change in fare. People act like he's doing this on his own in some kind of a vacuum, more likely, he is carrying out the plans and strategies the board hired him to.

In the same memo about eliminating PV movement, Anderson says that he has a problem with organizations getting Amtrak discount and then offering it to only paid members of that group. It said that discounts if any will be given by Amtrak vs people having to join AARP, AAA, etc to get a discount. It looks like the internal memo that was posted was taken down on the other thread but it was on the last paragraph of the memo. Essentially, Anderson feels that these organizations are getting the discounts for free from Amtrak and then making a profit off of it by selling membership to their organization.

 

[TinCan782]

Chefs on the CONO have been gone for quite some time. I am not sure about the discount elimination, do we have any real numbers as to how many people actually used those discounts, so we can try and figure if they actually caused a ridership drop? Right now we are only guessing. Not sure most students care, and other than a few vocal ones that may well apply to lots of veterans. Many of them will be eligible for senior anyway, so it wouldn't be a radical change in fare. People act like he's doing this on his own in some kind of a vacuum, more likely, he is carrying out the plans and strategies the board hired him to.

In the same memo about eliminating PV movement, Anderson says that he has a problem with organizations getting Amtrak discount and then offering it to only paid members of that group. It said that discounts if any will be given by Amtrak vs people having to join AARP, AAA, etc to get a discount. It looks like the internal memo that was posted was taken down on the other thread but it was on the last paragraph of the memo. Essentially, Anderson feels that these organizations are getting the discounts for free from Amtrak and then making a profit off of it by selling membership to their organization.

Hey wait! I join an organization for something I have an interest in, be it AAA, NARP/RPA, AARP, etc. NOT to get some particular discount! I'm a member of AAA to get a "free" 100+ mile tow if I need it, not to get an Amtrak discount. I'm a Veteran. If I get a discount because of that, so be it.

If you need to be a "paid" member of an organization to get an Amtrak (or any other) discount, that's a benefit of the membership.Not a fee to get a discount!

 

[Seaboard92]

Does anyone else think the whole petition wording sounds like justifying taking from one pocket to line the other? Take from Amtrak so others can earn a profit. Also this part:

Freight railroads will often move private cars, but in many cases charge astronomically high rates and do not handle the cars properly, resulting in expensive damage.

So what damages do the freights cause? Or is that part just put in to justifying not wanting to pay the "astronomically high rates?" After reading it over twice and after experiencing delays and power outages on Amtrak related to the PV's, I decided not to sign.

This is something I'm qualified to answer. Most but not all freight engineers have no actual experience dealing with passenger equipment and jar it too much. Passenger cars aren't the same as freight cars and are much more on the delicate side.

Most PV owners are very particular about which crews handle their cars when they are going from parking locations to Amtrak. Generally either the owner or someone like me will follow the car along in an auto to monitor the move.

So I totally understand where they are coming from because I've seen my fair share of bad freight crews. Now most of the ones I've worked with at Norfolk Southern I've worked with have been very good. But the road foreman of steam engines for them has been around during most of my exposure. And he has thirty to forty years of experience with passenger equipment.

 

[jis]

As long as Amtrak is reimbursed by a membership based provider of Amtrak discount (either monetarily or through some other quid pro quo, e.g. marketing or campaigning/lobbying for Amtrak etc.) for said discount there would be no reason to complain. Unfortunately they don’t.


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[Devil's Advocate]

Rather than nitpicking over details, the OP is interested in getting people to sign the petition for Amtrak to reverse course. Either you support it or you don't....

Thank you. The unending penchant for mocking derision of nearly any call to activism has to be the most singularly disappointing aspect of Amtrak Unlimited. Instead of looking for shared goals and common ground we look for ways to divide and conquer our own support base. With friends like this who needs enemies?