Amtrak Police Questioning in Chicago

[crescent-zephyr]

Hello Amtrak Board! I'm a long time reader of the board, but decided I would make an account and post this recent happening in Chicago. I've read about police questioning beforehand so I figured it was only a matter of time before my luck would turn but wasn't expecting twice in the same day!

I travel for work and take the train whenever possible. This morning I took Metra in to the city, checked my bag in the Metropolitan Lounge, and headed to Lou Mitchel's for Lunch before catching the Zephyr. (Lou Mitchels was better than ever FYI).

On the way back into the station, I entered through one of the side doors that goes down the steps into the great hall. I walked through the great hall, paused to read the Amtrak guest rewards banner, then continued toward the Metropolitan Lounge when I was stopped by 2 amtrak police who wanted to ask me questions.

Are you traveling today? I said yes. I then showed them my ticket.

Where is your luggage? In the lounge.

Where are you from?

Why are you traveling?

How long have you been in Chicago?

Do you have ID? Present them passport card.

Do you have an ID that shows where your live? Present them State ID Card.

Come with us. They took me into the Amtrak Police Office. And while "running my ID" asked me more questions about where I was coming from, the name of the company I work for. Weather I have ever taken professional photography (???), where I stayed while in Chicago, etc.

When they finally gave me my ID back, the officer that gave me my ID had a Amtrak Police paper he was filling out and asked me for my SSN. What was that card? am I now in some sort of Amtrak Police System?

The officer told me I was questioned because I was wearing clothing that matched the description of someone they were looking for. A blue shirt and a black baseball hat is enough for all that?

Yes I know I should have asked "am I free to leave" but I thought it was best to cooperate with them. And once I started answering any questions I didn't know when I could stop. I just wanted to answer the questions and get out of the situation.

THEN after getting on the train... another set of Amtrak plain clothes police say they had "randomly" selected me and asked me questions as well and then wanted to search my bags. (, why I asked them if I could say no and he said "it's your right to deny a search but if you do that gives me reason to take your bags off the train and run them by canine, and I can't guarantee I can do that in enough time to get your bags back on the train before it departs" So then I said Ok then search them. And they did... including going through my laundry bags, and even un-zipping the lining of my suitcase. They of course found nothing.

This is really sad that it is coming to this in the USA, but I don't think there is much to be done about this. I'm mostly worried that I have some sort of record now just for being stopped.

For what it's worth, everyone was extremely professional and as polite as they could be in the situation. The plain clothes unit was very clear on showing badge and ID before speaking to me. They were all Amtrak Police.

I will also say that Union Station looks to be under heightened security, tables set up for bag checks with Amtrak Police and Dark Blue uniforms, couldn't tell if the uniforms were TSA or not.

Mostly I just need to vent.. so thanks for reading everyone! ha. (if this should be posted in trip reports I apologize!).

 

[CelticWhisper]

There is definitely something to be done about this. Write to APD, write to Amtrak customer relations, and write to your elected officials. Complain. LOUDLY. Demand answers, demand reform, threaten to take your money elsewhere, do anything you can to make an inconvenience of yourself. Authorities get away with this because we let them. There are usually no consequences to them for pulling these stunts - we need to make sure they get the message that "safety and security" are no excuse for harassing, questioning and searching people without a warrant.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The oldest excuse on the world, you match the description of a suspect we are looking for is today's version of WWB, Walking While Black!

Call Amtrak Customer Relations and complain about this overkill, we don't need all this Security Theater in our Rail Stations or anywhere else for that matter!

You don't have a "record", but you are in the Amtrak Police Data Base now, this is SOP with all LE Agencies that question subjects!

 

[CelticWhisper]

Also, as I understand it, refusal of a search is NOT probable cause for an involuntary search.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You don't have a "record", but you are in the Amtrak Police Data Base now, this is SOP with all LE Agencies that question subjects!

That's what I figured...

I'm still trying to figure out what I did that would make them stop me in the first place. Oh yeah one of the officers asked me how old I was too.

For the record I'm 29, average build, white. I wasn't exactly dressed up but I don't feel like I looked homeless!

I guess I won't go to the great hall anymore.... walking through the great hall is suspicious activity.

 

[George K]

Wow. Simply wow.

"it's your right to deny a search but if you do that gives me reason to take your bags off the train and run them by canine, and I can't guarantee I can do that in enough time to get your bags back on the train before it departs"

Is that true? Is that probable cause for a search? There should be a penalty for random harassment like that.

 

[fairviewroad]

I asked them if I could say no and he said "it's your right to deny a search but if you do that gives me reason to take your bags off the train and run them by canine, and I can't guarantee I can do that in enough time to get your bags back on the train before it departs"

Translation: We'll put our doggie on "slow mode" and make your bags miss the train on purpose.

 

[KauaiJohn]

This story reminds me when I was young I flew home to Miami while living in Amsterdam. Customs in Miami pulled me into another room, strip searched me and interagency me for about 2 hours. Fortunately my visit was a surprise so no one was waiting for me. My father was the President of the Florida Bar Association and was quite angry. He called the head of customs the next day and after the guy looked into it came back and said it was my new boots. They thought I was smuggling dope in the linings. You never know what those guys at present thinking!

 

[jebr]

The terms of transporation basically gives an "open ticket" for Amtrak police to search your belongings if you wish to travel on Amtrak. Your only real recourse is to refuse the search and be denied boarding or kicked off the train.

From the Terms of Transportation:

In order to ensure the quality of travel and safety and security of its passengers, Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers:
[...]
Who refuse to consent to Amtrak security inspections of persons and/or baggage onboard Amtrak trains and/or at designated areas, such as train platforms and passenger boarding or waiting areas.

 

[Bob Dylan]

But is walking through the Great Hall grounds for searching and grilling people?

Tens of thousands of commuters and visitors go through Union Station daily!

This sounds like profiling to me which technically isn't done by LE Agencies in this country! Wink! Wink!

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The terms of transporation basically gives an "open ticket" for Amtrak police to search your belongings if you wish to travel on Amtrak. Your only real recourse is to refuse the search and be denied boarding or kicked off the train.

From the Terms of Transportation:

In order to ensure the quality of travel and safety and security of its passengers, Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers:

[...]

Who refuse to consent to Amtrak security inspections of persons and/or baggage onboard Amtrak trains and/or at designated areas, such as train platforms and passenger boarding or waiting areas.

Wow. Simply wow.

"it's your right to deny a search but if you do that gives me reason to take your bags off the train and run them by canine, and I can't guarantee I can do that in enough time to get your bags back on the train before it departs"

Is that true? Is that probable cause for a search? There should be a penalty for random harassment like that.

The officer knew what he was doing... I think the officer has the right to run any bag by the dogs if he has any reason to, conveniently the dog wasn't with him, so he would have to take the bag. Naturally that is a great way to get me to agree to a search, and I did.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

But is walking through the Great Hall grounds for searching and grilling people?

Tens of thousands of commuters and visitors go through Union Station daily!

This sounds like profiling to me which technically isn't done by LE Agencies in this country! Wink! Wink!

And just to be clear, this was two SEPARATE incidents on the same day. I don't think they were related although perhaps the luggage search was triggered because of the earlier questioning?

The luggage search and questioning was on the train and was the standard solo passenger traveling from Chicago out west.... I've read enough posts on this board to know this is fairly common.

The great hall questioning was wayyyy more bizarre. I walked into the station, (whichever door is closest to Lou Mitchels), down the steps, through the great hall, glanced at the Amtrak Guest Rewards Banners, and then continued towards the metropolitan lounge. They stopped me right outside the doors from the great hall leading into the newer part of the station. Those officers never checked my luggage (it was with the Red Cap in the Lounge), just asked me a ton of questions and ran my ID.

 

[StriderGDM]

My NON lawyer take on this: It all sounds legal, though perhaps a bit dubious. Yeah, the "you matched someone" seems a bit much, but on the same hand, why would they randomly pick you? (there may still be other reasons, legitimate or not, but something triggered their suspicions).

And the search on the train, yeah, part of what you agree to when buying a ticket is basically that.

My take is, they sounded like they acted professionally. I'm not sure I'd take it up with the APD per se (unless you want a better explanation, but complaining when they acted professionally seems a bit pointless). I might take it up with customer service and my reps.

Of course, sadly if you have the money, there are lawyers who I'm sure would take your money and "get to the bottom of this".

One last thing, I don't believe in coincidence, so I suspect the two were non unrelated. But it may be more likely the second incident was based on the same thing that triggered the first, not that the first itself triggered the second.

 

[neroden]

This is really sad that it is coming to this in the USA, but I don't think there is much to be done about this. I'm mostly worried that I have some sort of record now just for being stopped.

Write to Amtrak. Write to to your Congresspeople and your state legislators. And vote for candidates who oppose this bullcrap. For the Presidential race, that's just Bernie Sanders.
Also, it certainly helps to write to the newspapers.

Many of us are getting tired of these sorts of fascistic warrantless, suspicionless searches. They are contrary to the spirit of the Fourth Amendment, and often contrary to the letter of it as well. The harassment of solo passengers just for *being* solo passengers is particularly unacceptable.

At least they were behaving professionally. But it's pretty obvious there are too many of them with too much time to kill if they have time to waste harassing innocent passengers into pointless searches. Time to cut the funding.

 

[Rincewind]

The luggage search and questioning was on the train and was the standard solo passenger traveling from Chicago out west...

What do you mean by that? Next month will be my first Amtrak ride and I'm a "match" - traveling solo from Chicago to LA. Should I be prepared for an interrogation?

 

[Riverviewer]

Were you wearing a hoodie (hooded sweatshirt)?

That seems to be something that gives cops the absolute right to question/search/harass anyone traveling by train or bus these days, based on their training and standing orders. (Especially if traveling through Reno.)

 

[Bob Dylan]

The luggage search and questioning was on the train and was the standard solo passenger traveling from Chicago out west...

What do you mean by that? Next month will be my first Amtrak ride and I'm a "match" - traveling solo from Chicago to LA. Should I be prepared for an interrogation?

Unfortunately yes!

However, you can play the confused tourist that doesn't quite understand English so well if they single you out.

Just show them your Passport and ticket and answer any questions as briefly as possible, dint volunteer any information or try to chat them up or make jokes.

Most of these people don't have a sense of humor and are, at heart, bullies with not enough to do that involves real crime!

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

I take exception to the "solo traveling LD out west from Chicago" automatic criteria. I've been traveling through Chicago solo on Amtrak since the 1970's and have never been selected. In fact, I was in Chicago connecting in January, May, and October and was never questioned. In the late 1980's in St. Louis while connecting on an airline(not Amtrak) I was randomly selected to have my carry on bag opened and examined as part of the boarding process.

 

[Karl1459]

My take... They were looking for someone who matched your description. And they wanted them pretty bad. The fact that you were tagged twice supports that theory. Now they may have been going on sketchy information, ie a report of the "bad guy" MIGHT be going from point a to point b and MIGHT use Amtrak. Had you told the police on the train the story of the contact in Chicago that might have shortened things. Especially if you were to show them a business card you had gotten a from the guys in Chicago so you could call them if you saw someone looking like you!

An example of how things can happen. I was serving as Fire Department duty officer (rural area... we worked close with sheriffs and monitored their radio) and I overheard a report of a stolen Corvette of a particular color that had just occurred about two miles from where I was. Sure enough within a minute a Corvette of the same year and color passes by. So I follow at a safe distance (too far to read the license plate) and radio to dispatch. Ten miles later in the next town they get pulled over by about 5 police cars. Two minutes later they are back on the road with a request to watch out for another car that looks like theirs.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The two contact are related. The first one was with out your bags, so they did the second one to check your bags.

No idea why you were ID but I do miss the last Amtrak PD Chief. He was a no BS type of guy.

Love the reason for the hard contact.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Made me feel a little better.

I've done all the western trains multiple times, and I've seen the luggage search before, but never been the lucky one. I usually use points for the western trips, but I paid for this one, and within a week of traveling. The luggage search seemed pretty routine, so I'm still not sure the 2 were connected, but obviously they could be.

Was not wearing a hoodie, was wearing a blue button down shirt and a black baseball hat.

Oh well... Great staff on the train, and great views have turned my mood around. It's just shocking how they treat customers "guilty until proven innocent."

 

[CelticWhisper]

This (overall) makes me feel a lot worse. A Zephyr-Starlight-Builder trip is on my bucket list and I'm not really sure how to feel about it now. I'd like to think I left privacy intrusions ("For Safety!"TM) behind when I abandoned air travel. Is it going to come down to me writing Amtrak before my trip and saying "Hey, I'm traveling on X date. There you go, no secret, there I'll be. This means I have nothing to hide, so you have nothing to find. Leave me alone!"? Or should I just plan a road trip instead?

Too few people are serious enough about rights and privacy. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.

 

[tricia]

This (overall) makes me feel a lot worse. A Zephyr-Starlight-Builder trip is on my bucket list and I'm not really sure how to feel about it now. I'd like to think I left privacy intrusions ("For Safety!"TM) behind when I abandoned air travel. Is it going to come down to me writing Amtrak before my trip and saying "Hey, I'm traveling on X date. There you go, no secret, there I'll be. This means I have nothing to hide, so you have nothing to find. Leave me alone!"? Or should I just plan a road trip instead?

Too few people are serious enough about rights and privacy. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.

You might (or might not) be fighting a losing battle--hard to tell at this point. But you're certainly not alone.

 

[GG-1]

Was not wearing a hoodie, was wearing a blue button down shirt and a black baseball hat.

That's what triggered it, they supported a different team

Aloha

 

[fairviewroad]

Is it going to come down to me writing Amtrak before my trip and saying "Hey, I'm traveling on X date. There you go, no secret, there I'll be. This means I have nothing to hide, so you have nothing to find. Leave me alone!"?

Not sure if you're serious, but this strikes me as a bad idea. Anyhow, your ticket is essentially a letter to Amtrak telling them who is traveling, where, and on what date. Everything else you propose to tell them would probably either get ignored (i.e. it was a waste of your time) or get you put in the "check into this person" file, which would accomplish the exact opposite of what you intend.