Amtrak to Norfolk VA...

[eagle628]

http://www.virginiabusiness.com/index.php/news/article/virginia-and-norfolk-southern-sign-agreement-to-restore-passenger-rail-to-n/309272/

Pretty much what it says on the tin. I hadn't heard anything about this prior to the announcement, so it sort of caught me by surprise. No complaints, though.

 

[George Harris]

Should be able to find out details for this from the VADOT web site. The traffic must be down some or there has been some change of heart at the top in NS. There enthusiasm ofr this when it was brought up a few years ago was to say the least, underwhelming. One problem is the lack of a good connection between CSX adn NS at Petersburg. The line from Petersburg toward Norfolk has only a couple of curves before the Norfolk area, so 79 mph limit on much of this means running 79 mph.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

One problem is the lack of a good connection between CSX adn NS at Petersburg.

The Amtrak station for Petersburg is actually located in Ettrick, VA, which sits in the southern tip of Chesterfield County, right across the Appomattox River from the City of Petersburg.

The old downtown Petersburg station still stands, though, and back in 2005 it looked like it was being used as a banquet hall.

 

[Big Iron]

One problem is the lack of a good connection between CSX adn NS at Petersburg.

The Amtrak station for Petersburg is actually located in Ettrick, VA, which sits in the southern tip of Chesterfield County, right across the Appomattox River from the City of Petersburg.

The old downtown Petersburg station still stands, though, and back in 2005 it looked like it was being used as a banquet hall.

This plan calls for improving the CSX/NS connection near Petersburg to use the Ettrick station (to continue on to RVR and points North) and not the NS station in Old Town Petersburg. The NS station is owned by the City and is used as a banquet/meeting facility. It is pretty much gutted on the inside.

Interesting is that the Commonwealth's Governor is fastracking turning Rt. 460 from Petersburg to Suffolk into a high speed tollroad which would exactly parallel the NS track. One toll proposal has no interchanges between the two end points and a speed of 75mph. Supposedly this is needed when the widened Panama Canal opens and the Port of Hampton Roads picks up more business. This would be the route of choice to bring the cans north/west. State funds will be used in conunction with private funds.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

http://www.virginiabusiness.com/index.php/news/article/virginia-and-norfolk-southern-sign-agreement-to-restore-passenger-rail-to-n/309272/

Pretty much what it says on the tin. I hadn't heard anything about this prior to the announcement, so it sort of caught me by surprise. No complaints, though.

Yeah, that news has been out for at least a few months now. There was a big stink here in Richmond about whether the train would stop at both Main Street Station and Staples Mill Road Station, the latter not being actually in the City of Richmond, but 'way out in Henrico County. Turns out, the train will stop only at Staples Mill, bypassing Main Street, which will continue to get only the 66/67 (daily), 94/95 (weekdays), 194/99 (weekends), and 83 (Fridays) between Boston and Newport News.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2010/feb/18/b-vdot18_20100217-215203-ar-7989/

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/jun/27/ed-bead27-ar-231867/

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2010/jul/18/rail18-ar-317680/

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/aug/08/ed-drak08-ar-416568/

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2010/oct/09/b-rail09-ar-551687/

 

[afigg]

The Virginia funding for starting the initial service to Norfolk - south of the James river - was announced earlier this year. The last I saw, the current plan is for the daily train to not go through the Richmond Main Street station, but instead south from Staples Mill Road station to Petersburg and then southeast on the NS tracks to Norfolk. The route from RVR to the Main Street station is extremely slow and busy with freight traffic. The only Amtrak trains that use it are the 2 daily trains that go to Newport News. Until the RVR to Main Street station section with an Acca yard bypass and Main Street station have seen speed and capacity improvements as part of the SE HSR program, the Norfolk bound trains will bypass the Main street station route. The long term plans for the Norfolk service calls for 3 daily trains, but the current plan appears to be to start with a single daily train to Norfolk in 2013.

Virginia is putting up $87 million of state funding to start the Norfolk service. Shows that Virginia, even with a conservative Republican governor, is in the pro-passenger rail group of states. The prospects of the Norfolk and Newport News services should help motivate the Virginia politicians to seek continued federal funding for intercity passenger rail to get funds for the SEHSR corridor.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

Until the RVR to Main Street station section with an Acca yard bypass and Main Street station have seen speed and capacity improvements as part of the SE HSR program, the Norfolk bound trains will bypass the Main street station route.

The section between Main Street and Petersburg is also slow and freight heavy. I think passenger trains last ran on that section in the 1950s. That would be another interesting ride, though---right through the middle level of the Triple Crossing, which is just about one block south of Main Street Station.

 

[Anderson]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Now that's an alarming scenario. If Norfolk kills Newport News, that means no more service to Main Street. Amtrak wouldn't back the Regional trains down to Main Street from Staples Mill just for a fraction of Richmond passengers who prefer Main Street. And how many Main Street passengers are really going to Norfolk via Newport News thruway bus connection?

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

2013--Virginia Facing Payment to Amtrak for Rail Service

http://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=30477

 

[Anderson]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Now that's an alarming scenario. If Norfolk kills Newport News, that means no more service to Main Street. Amtrak wouldn't back the Regional trains down to Main Street from Staples Mill just for a fraction of Richmond passengers who prefer Main Street. And how many Main Street passengers are really going to Norfolk via Newport News thruway bus connection?

They wouldn't. You'd reverse the existing Norfolk-NPN bus connection in the event of a cut. The big issue here is WBG, which gets caught in the lurch...especially if VA gets slapped with a big bill here. Look, we're willing to pay for train service...but there's always going to be a limit, and too much of a hike could force cutbacks. And cutting WBG is a bit of an issue because that's 50,000 trips you'd lose outright. My gut says that it'll stay as long as VA doesn't have to subsidize both lines, but I doubt the state will pay for both.

The worst part is that apparently, the Lynchburg-DC line is self-sustaining in terms of revenue versus cost (and turning a nominal profit) but the state apparently has to kick in money to keep it going (which makes no sense whatsoever tp me). If I had to guess, based on travel figures, the RVR-WAS line probably is as well...though there you have complications relating to the Silver Service in terms of passengers served. The whole route (NPN-WAS) is running about 470,000 people per year (or close to 1300 per day)...granted, that includes both ways (north and south), but even still...650/day is nothing to sneeze at. What I don't know is if that's spread over the nine trains per day that go through RVR (we've got four "through" trains on the RVR-WAS part of the corridor: 2 Silvers, the Carolinian, and the Palmetto), or just the 5 Northeast Regional trains per day. If it's the former, then it's nothing particularly special (71 per train); if it's the latter, then that's a lot of people (128/train versus the profit-making Lynchburg run at 172/day on one daily run)and the run should at least in theory be self-sustaining.

Of course, I don't know how an NPN-NYP or RVR-PHL ticket gets logged (i.e. as NEC Spine, WAS-NPN, or both).

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Now that's an alarming scenario. If Norfolk kills Newport News, that means no more service to Main Street. Amtrak wouldn't back the Regional trains down to Main Street from Staples Mill just for a fraction of Richmond passengers who prefer Main Street. And how many Main Street passengers are really going to Norfolk via Newport News thruway bus connection?

They wouldn't. You'd reverse the existing Norfolk-NPN bus connection in the event of a cut. The big issue here is WBG, which gets caught in the lurch...especially if VA gets slapped with a big bill here. Look, we're willing to pay for train service...but there's always going to be a limit, and too much of a hike could force cutbacks. And cutting WBG is a bit of an issue because that's 50,000 trips you'd lose outright. My gut says that it'll stay as long as VA doesn't have to subsidize both lines, but I doubt the state will pay for both.

The worst part is that apparently, the Lynchburg-DC line is self-sustaining in terms of revenue versus cost (and turning a nominal profit) but the state apparently has to kick in money to keep it going (which makes no sense whatsoever tp me). If I had to guess, based on travel figures, the RVR-WAS line probably is as well...though there you have complications relating to the Silver Service in terms of passengers served. The whole route (NPN-WAS) is running about 470,000 people per year (or close to 1300 per day)...granted, that includes both ways (north and south), but even still...650/day is nothing to sneeze at. What I don't know is if that's spread over the nine trains per day that go through RVR (we've got four "through" trains on the RVR-WAS part of the corridor: 2 Silvers, the Carolinian, and the Palmetto), or just the 5 Northeast Regional trains per day. If it's the former, then it's nothing particularly special (71 per train); if it's the latter, then that's a lot of people (128/train versus the profit-making Lynchburg run at 172/day on one daily run)and the run should at least in theory be self-sustaining.

Of course, I don't know how an NPN-NYP or RVR-PHL ticket gets logged (i.e. as NEC Spine, WAS-NPN, or both).

Losing Main Street Station is what worries me, because if we lose WBG and NPN, we also lose RVM. It only gets the NPN trains, because of the way the track splits in Richmond between the two stations.

Numbers I'd like to see are, as you suggest, trade ridership broken down station AND train. Of the two Regional trains that stop at both Richmond stations, how do the numbers compare? Amtrak only gives rider number by station, not by train, as far as I've been able to find.

 

[afigg]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Or, the new service to Norfolk results in increased total ridership from the 7 cities area. And Virginia gets federal funding for the SE HSR corridor over a several year period for projects for an Acca yard bypass, upgrades to the RVR to RVM and RVM to Petersburg section, RVM station improvements, 3rd track & other upgrades on the DC to Fredericksburg section. Newport News had a 116 thousand passengers in FY10 which is quite impressive given just how slow the run times to DC are. Downtown Richmond and the greater Norfolk/Virginia Beach/Newport News/etc region are a prime target for better and faster passenger rail service.

In the long run, I could see where the southern route to Norfolk becomes the main HrSR route with 3-5 daily Northeast Regionals connecting to the NEC and the SE HSR corridor at Richmond. The Richmond to Newport News route north of the river passes by 2 airports, neither of which have stations. Perhaps the better long term solution for the northern route is a 79 mph local shuttle train service that goes from Richmond Main street station to Newport News with intermodal stations at the 2 airports - after major capacity upgrades to the CSX route of course. People coming from the north or from the south going to Williamsburg or Newport News would get the shuttle train in Richmond.

 

[Richmond, Virginian]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Or, the new service to Norfolk results in increased total ridership from the 7 cities area. And Virginia gets federal funding for the SE HSR corridor over a several year period for projects for an Acca yard bypass, upgrades to the RVR to RVM and RVM to Petersburg section, RVM station improvements, 3rd track & other upgrades on the DC to Fredericksburg section. Newport News had a 116 thousand passengers in FY10 which is quite impressive given just how slow the run times to DC are. Downtown Richmond and the greater Norfolk/Virginia Beach/Newport News/etc region are a prime target for better and faster passenger rail service.

In the long run, I could see where the southern route to Norfolk becomes the main HrSR route with 3-5 daily Northeast Regionals connecting to the NEC and the SE HSR corridor at Richmond. The Richmond to Newport News route north of the river passes by 2 airports, neither of which have stations. Perhaps the better long term solution for the northern route is a 79 mph local shuttle train service that goes from Richmond Main street station to Newport News with intermodal stations at the 2 airports - after major capacity upgrades to the CSX route of course. People coming from the north or from the south going to Williamsburg or Newport News would get the shuttle train in Richmond.

I'll join your optimism here. I live in downtown Richmond and I think it is definitely underserved by train/bus transportation. The Greyhound station is within the city limits, but the local bus line service is only so-so. Staples Mill gets most of the trains, but it's in Henrico County; local bus service is pretty limited, and cab fare is expensive to downtown. I think more people would choose RVM over RVR if they had the option on more trains.

AND... as of December 15, Megabus has started serving Richmond with 14 daily departures... right across the street from Main Street Station. I think overall this will bring more travelers to downtown Richmond and show that there is really a solid market for more trains.

 

[George Harris]

Look south one state. When North Carolina added the third Raleigh - Charlotte train, the number of passengers per train increased. The Norfolk train will serve a market not really served at all now. It will also increase the visibility of trains in general in Tidewater Virginia.

Despite being relatively slow and requiring a bus ride across the bay, it is surprising how many business travelers in the SF Bay area to Sacramento almost automaticall think train if they must travel between these points. It saves functional time compared to driving. You can read reports, work on your laptop, grab a snack or meal, or if more than one, have an impromptu meeting or disucssion.

 

[Ryan]

I can't wait for this service to get rolling, my mother-in-law just moved from Newport News to Suffolk, which is a real pain in the neck to get to. Train service on the Southside would be a HUGE increase in visibility for Amtrak, particularly at the downtown station location.

I don't share the concern about RVM that others have - there's no way that Amtrak is going to pull out of WBG, and I don't see the massive reduction in ridership at NPN that some are concerned about. True, the Norfolk station would be 23 miles from NPN (and Suffolk would only be 26), but the drive to Norfolk would take you through two frequently congested tunnels (depending on which way you go). At least when I lived in Norfolk, the general attitude was that anything on the other side of the HRBT was "Way the hell over there, that's too far to drive".

 

[Big Iron]

I can't wait for this service to get rolling, my mother-in-law just moved from Newport News to Suffolk, which is a real pain in the neck to get to. Train service on the Southside would be a HUGE increase in visibility for Amtrak, particularly at the downtown station location.

I don't share the concern about RVM that others have - there's no way that Amtrak is going to pull out of WBG, and I don't see the massive reduction in ridership at NPN that some are concerned about. True, the Norfolk station would be 23 miles from NPN (and Suffolk would only be 26), but the drive to Norfolk would take you through two frequently congested tunnels (depending on which way you go). At least when I lived in Norfolk, the general attitude was that anything on the other side of the HRBT was "Way the hell over there, that's too far to drive".

I'm with Ryan that the two routes will peacefully coexist. This was the sentimet at the public meetings that were held just about a year ago. Ryan, Suffolk will be alot easier to get to with the new train(s) and a new Toll Road that will parallel Rt. 460 to Suffolk. Suffolk is a town that has rebounded nicely with cogent redevelopment. Reliable trains will only help this.

BTW, don't forget to stop at the Virginia Diner when you are rolling down 460. Good eats.

 

[Big Iron]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Regarding the potential upgrade to allow 110 mph, this will cost (IIRC) $90 million to reduce running time between end points by 6 minutes. To me, it would be better to spend that $90 mil on more train frequency running at 79mph. The corridor where the high speeds can be realized is only 70 miles long, to me, too short to really benefit from 110 mph.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Regarding the potential upgrade to allow 110 mph, this will cost (IIRC) $90 million to reduce running time between end points by 6 minutes. To me, it would be better to spend that $90 mil on more train frequency running at 79mph. The corridor where the high speeds can be realized is only 70 miles long, to me, too short to really benefit from 110 mph.

Lets operate on a generational (20 year) basis, ok? Currently, 500k people ride south of WAS. Lets assume that by 2032, that will triple to 1.5M people, and thus operate on a basis of 1M average over the 20 years, or a total of 3,780,000 people, ok? Each one of those, with that 90 million spent, will save 7 minutes, or a total of 140,000,000 man minutes, or 2,333,333 man hours, or about $40 an hour. Thats not crazy.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, Suffolk will be alot easier to get to with the new train(s) and a new Toll Road that will parallel Rt. 460 to Suffolk. Suffolk is a town that has rebounded nicely with cogent redevelopment. Reliable trains will only help this.

BTW, don't forget to stop at the Virginia Diner when you are rolling down 460. Good eats.

This is the first I've heard of the toll road as well - that'll be nice for the times we drive (I don't mind spending a little money for the convenience of no traffic lights/cross traffic).

Thanks for the heads up on the VA Diner, too - I figured that it was either pretty good, or a complete tourist trap (but not a lot of tourists rolling through there).

 

[Big Iron]

Ryan, Suffolk will be alot easier to get to with the new train(s) and a new Toll Road that will parallel Rt. 460 to Suffolk. Suffolk is a town that has rebounded nicely with cogent redevelopment. Reliable trains will only help this.

BTW, don't forget to stop at the Virginia Diner when you are rolling down 460. Good eats.

This is the first I've heard of the toll road as well - that'll be nice for the times we drive (I don't mind spending a little money for the convenience of no traffic lights/cross traffic).

Thanks for the heads up on the VA Diner, too - I figured that it was either pretty good, or a complete tourist trap (but not a lot of tourists rolling through there).

The toll road is the Governor's pet transportation project. Supposed to be online in 2015 but that sounds agressive.

The VA Diner is a bit both of tourist trap and good eats. A good mix of locals and those just passing through. Damn good fried chicken and catfish. The Diner is busier in the Summer months with the tourists using 460 to get to Nags Head. I eat lunch there a few times a month and there is always a decent crowd.

Don't forget to post your trip report on your first train ride to Suffolk.

 

[Big Iron]

http://www.route460ppta.org/

Ryan, the link above has the info on the toll road to Suffolk. Sorry to hijack the thread about a toll road but it will be competition for the train to Norfolk

 

[Anderson]

I spoke with my Delegate about this. As I understand, part of the project is to eventually make some upgrades on the line to Norfolk so the trains can run at about 110 MPH (the mentioned signaling upgrades). That said, I'm ambivalent about it because it's likely to jeopardize the Newport News link...the concern that Glen Oder raised is that you'll still get the 50,000 people stopping at Williamsburg, VA, but you'll lose a lot of the 110,000 people you get at NPN. You could easily get a replacement stop at Suffolk (about 20-30 minutes south, across the river). The WBG stop is a big one, but I'm not sure that both would survive if we get another batch of cuts to Amtrak.

Regarding the potential upgrade to allow 110 mph, this will cost (IIRC) $90 million to reduce running time between end points by 6 minutes. To me, it would be better to spend that $90 mil on more train frequency running at 79mph. The corridor where the high speeds can be realized is only 70 miles long, to me, too short to really benefit from 110 mph.

Lets operate on a generational (20 year) basis, ok? Currently, 500k people ride south of WAS. Lets assume that by 2032, that will triple to 1.5M people, and thus operate on a basis of 1M average over the 20 years, or a total of 3,780,000 people, ok? Each one of those, with that 90 million spent, will save 7 minutes, or a total of 140,000,000 man minutes, or 2,333,333 man hours, or about $40 an hour. Thats not crazy.

(Pardon the guest status...having account issues on a different computer)

The upgrade isn't important because of just that stretch of track...the time savings on almost any single segment of track will be small. It's important because it plugs into a longer upgrade on the RVR-WAS track that I believe is in the works. Realistically, you're probably looking at an express service in the long run that goes as follows:

Norfolk

Suffolk

Petersburg

Richmond (Main Street and Staples Mill)

Fredericksburg

Washington

The key is that in every one of those cities, you've got downtown-to-downtown connections available (the planned Suffolk station is in downtown Suffolk), and the line is about 200 miles long. A 110 MPH train running on that could probably cover the distance in about 3-3.5 hours, depending on stop times and how often it had to slow down for restricted segments.

As to the toll road: I don't know what the toll will be, but I suspect it will be a spectacular flop in revenue terms. People aren't likely to pay a toll to go 10 MPH faster...most toll roads that succeed do so either through a de facto monopoly (example: The Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel) or because they're bypassing mostly low-speed "surface streets" (example: The Chesapeake Expressway, which bypasses a notoriously busy stretch of two-lane road on the way to the Outer Banks). 460 is 55-65 most of the way as it stands (I think it's got a few slabs of 65), so I think you might even get some trucking companies that won't sign off on paying $2 to cut ten minutes off the trip...particularly if the toll road doesn't tie straight into I-295 or I-664.

 

[Ryan]

2 nits to pick:

1. If its truly express service, it'd be RVM or RVR, but not both.

2. According to Google Maps, that stretch of 460 is 49 miles and takes 1h15 minutes. Nothing over 55 (I'm pretty sure, and lots of 35 and traffic lights). If you turn that into controlled access you can do that same 49 miles in 42 minutes (averaging 70MPH), so the toll road would save about a half hour. As far as I'm concerned, for 3 or 4 trips to the in-laws, they can't build the toll road fast enough.

Thanks, Big Iron for the info and the link! Looks like I'll be taking the train down there before the toll road ever gets built!

 

[Anderson]

2 nits to pick:

1. If its truly express service, it'd be RVM or RVR, but not both.

2. According to Google Maps, that stretch of 460 is 49 miles and takes 1h15 minutes. Nothing over 55 (I'm pretty sure, and lots of 35 and traffic lights). If you turn that into controlled access you can do that same 49 miles in 42 minutes (averaging 70MPH), so the toll road would save about a half hour. As far as I'm concerned, for 3 or 4 trips to the in-laws, they can't build the toll road fast enough.

Thanks, Big Iron for the info and the link! Looks like I'll be taking the train down there before the toll road ever gets built!

1. Agreed, but there's a big political football emerging there. If I had to hazard a guess, I think the Richmond folks want to move things back downtown to RVM, but I don't think Amtrak wants trains blowing through RVR without stopping.

2. You're right, my memory failed me. The aforementioned faster section is on a Suffolk bypass that links in. Sorry...I left late at night last time I took 460. That said...this is one of those roads where the speed limit is rather a vague suggestion, and most of the traffic averages somewhere in the 60-65 range outside the towns.

And yeah, tolls are McDonnell's pet project. I wouldn't care about the planned HRBT/MMBT tolls if they'd put in a decent commuter line to Virginia Beach alongside it, but...*steams at that particular segment of the project* The worst part is that as it stands, apparently the local delegate is having to fend off tolls on I-64 up the Peninsula (ditto the earlier comment).