Amtrak's LD vision: more marketing, fewer amenities?

[afigg]

Every time I go to 30th Street Station, Philadelphia, I think of a missed opportunity for promoting Amtrak long distance trains.

As at most NEC stations, there are multiple displays in the station that constantly loop that dreadful Amtrak security video. Passengers waiting in line for trains can't help but see that same video over and over and over. I get that is it considered important, but while showing it, why not intersperse videos of various LD train experiences between the security stuff. I can assure you that many of the people waiting in those lines have no idea what long distance trains are like, or that they even exist. A video showing the best of the Zephyr, the Chief, or the Auto Train might just plant the seed for a later sale. The cost of making the videos would be the only cost involved.

There may be DHS restrictions that would prevent Amtrak from inserting marketing videos between the security message loops. Would not put it past DHS to require that only security videos be played on the monitor.

Even if Amtrak can insert marketing videos, you are likely overestimating the benefit. For one, people quickly learn to tune the security video loops out and that may still apply if there was a periodic promotional video inserted in the loops. Secondly, Amtrak has large signs and posters promoting the LD trains in the major NEC stations, so few regular travelers on the NEC are likely unaware of the CZ, SWC, AutoTrain, etc.

There would be a cost beyond making the videos in that someone has to program them into the security video feed, periodically update the video loops. Should be a small cost, but not zero. I think it would break the background monotony of the endless security video loops and am not opposed to the idea, but I suspect the benefit in marketing awareness would be small.

 

[cirdan]

There would be a cost beyond making the videos in that someone has to program them into the security video feed, periodically update the video loops. Should be a small cost, but not zero. I think it would break the background monotony of the endless security video loops and am not opposed to the idea, but I suspect the benefit in marketing awareness would be small.

However, the reverse might equally be true. If these videos were clever or amusing or inspiring or in some other way above your usual advertising claptrap, people's attention would be caught and there might be some positive fallback in terms of that making people watch the security videos too.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There would be a cost beyond making the videos in that someone has to program them into the security video feed, periodically update the video loops. Should be a small cost, but not zero. I think it would break the background monotony of the endless security video loops and am not opposed to the idea, but I suspect the benefit in marketing awareness would be small.

However, the reverse might equally be true. If these videos were clever or amusing or inspiring or in some other way above your usual advertising claptrap, people's attention would be caught and there might be some positive fallback in terms of that making people watch the security videos too.

In order for that to work the videos would have to contain something worth learning. For instance, when has a TSA agent gone above and beyond their approved invasive behavior? How effective is the redress process? What are the appropriate steps to take when you feel you're being harassed? There are a thousand security related questions I'd love to see answered on those screens instead a bunch of "oh look at the cute security doggy keeping us safe from those scary evil doers" crap they have on there now. The American government's response to terrorism has been just plain embarrassing on so many levels.

 

[TVRM610]

One thing that we need to remember.... most long distance trains (the majority) lost nothing except flowers, newspapers, and cranberry juice in the sleepers. I simply refuse to believe that anyone will base their travel plans on any of those items. Nothing else has changed.

The routes with more premium touches like wine and cheese tastings, ceramic dishware, and alternative meal options are nowhere near where I live. Those little extras helped sell me on the extra time, effort, and money involved with riding those trains. As Amtrak begins chasing the least common denominator those touches will eventually vanish. Without those little extras I'll still travel Amtrak from time to time but it will likely be less and less as they work on turning each route into yet another generic Texas Eagle experience.

Since trains like the Zephyr, Chief, and Crescent seem to sell just as well as the Starlight and the Empire Builder.. what's the point of having the extras? I'm saying this from a business perspective.

If we want Amtrak to end up like domestic airlines then that's great advice.

Devil's Advocate... The only amenity that Amtrak has offered that totally sold me on wanting to take the train was the Parlor Cars on the Coast Starlight. The wine and cheese tastings, the option of a relaxed meal at a private table, the history and upscale nature of the cars... all of those things together helped sell the trip as being worthwhile. The wine and cheese on the Empire Builder? Was a nice experience but I would never book that train based on that experience.

For me.. my favorite amtrak experience ever was last year on the California Zephyr. I had amazing service, good food, and the best scenery I've ever seen in my life. My 2nd favorite is the Coast Starlight for a combination of the Scenery and Parlor Cars.

I guess what I am saying is... I agree and disagree. For me the wine and cheese tasting was just a "nice extra" on the Empire Builder and Lake Shore. But it was a part of the total package on the Starlight. (I've never ridden Auto Train so can't comment).

I'm fine on the Crescent and the Zephyr.. yes i like the ceramic plates when I ride the Capitol but the food usually tastes better on the Crescent to me... guess which I would prefer? The Crescent with it's better chefs (seriously I've had SUCH good food on the Crescent and SUCH lousy food on the Capitol... I blame it on the crew bases but maybe it's just my luck.)

 

[The Whistler]

The long distance vision seems to be to take away the slightest amenities on the passengers that pay the most and contribute more to the bottom line. This is an asinine philosophy. Really how much are you saving by eliminating a rose on each dining table that stays there all day (and perhaps the next day) through perhaps 6-10 meal seatings. Divide the cost per passenger and what do you save; a stinking 10 cents per passenger.., maybe. Same with newspapers. I don't read propaganda filled newspapers but lets be generous and say this costs 50 cents per passenger. Ok, charge us a buck more on our ticket and cover the cost. Ridiculous logic is being used for cost savings.

 

[TVRM610]

One thing that we need to remember.... most long distance trains (the majority) lost nothing except flowers, newspapers, and cranberry juice in the sleepers. I simply refuse to believe that anyone will base their travel plans on any of those items. Nothing else has changed.

Since trains like the Zephyr, Chief, and Crescent seem to sell just as well as the Starlight and the Empire Builder.. what's the point of having the extras? I'm saying this from a business perspective.

They don't sell just as well. Look at ridership and consists. The Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder are carrying more people per train, in more coaches and more sleepers, than the Zephyr and the Chief. Now, cause and effect work in the opposite direction, of course... it's the higher ridership which requires the addition of certain amenities.
This is actually the motivation behind the extra "first class" lounge on the Coast Starlight -- it's not obvious, but the motivation is overcrowding in the main lounge and in the diner. The same motivation is behind the "first class" lounge on the Auto Train.

I agree that the flowers and newspapers don't matter, it's stuff like the removal of a lounge car from the Auto Train, the proposed removal of the PPC from the Coast Starlight, and the completely idiotic attempt to make customers eat meals faster on the Auto Train, which is worrying me.

You are correct.. Empire Builder and Coast Starlight both sell better than the Zephyr and the Chief. That is true. I guess I meant that they sell out just as much at the same prices... but indeed the Builder and Starlight have greater ridership.

The funny thing is it's the Empire Builder that badly needs an extra food service car. The ridership for the Builder far exceeds the Starlight.

 

[montana mike]

I just noticed--Perhaps the Forum will need to remove and replace the image for the Amtrak Forum, since it shows a lovely fresh flower in a dining car--which is now (or will be soon) a thing of the past sadly......

 

[CHamilton]

I just noticed--Perhaps the Forum will need to remove and replace the image for the Amtrak Forum, since it shows a lovely fresh flower in a dining car--which is now (or will be soon) a thing of the past sadly......

ALC Rail Writer came to the same conclusion a couple of days ago. http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/59066-picture-of-flowers-on-main-page/

 

[cassie225]

One thing that we need to remember.... most long distance trains (the majority) lost nothing except flowers, newspapers, and cranberry juice in the sleepers. I simply refuse to believe that anyone will base their travel plans on any of those items. Nothing else has changed.

The routes with more premium touches like wine and cheese tastings, ceramic dishware, and alternative meal options are nowhere near where I live. Those little extras helped sell me on the extra time, effort, and money involved with riding those trains. As Amtrak begins chasing the least common denominator those touches will eventually vanish. Without those little extras I'll still travel Amtrak from time to time but it will likely be less and less as they work on turning each route into yet another generic Texas Eagle experience.

Since trains like the Zephyr, Chief, and Crescent seem to sell just as well as the Starlight and the Empire Builder.. what's the point of having the extras? I'm saying this from a business perspective.

If we want Amtrak to end up like domestic airlines then that's great advice.

Devil's Advocate... The only amenity that Amtrak has offered that totally sold me on wanting to take the train was the Parlor Cars on the Coast Starlight. The wine and cheese tastings, the option of a relaxed meal at a private table, the history and upscale nature of the cars... all of those things together helped sell the trip as being worthwhile. The wine and cheese on the Empire Builder? Was a nice experience but I would never book that train based on that experience.

For me.. my favorite amtrak experience ever was last year on the California Zephyr. I had amazing service, good food, and the best scenery I've ever seen in my life. My 2nd favorite is the Coast Starlight for a combination of the Scenery and Parlor Cars.

I guess what I am saying is... I agree and disagree. For me the wine and cheese tasting was just a "nice extra" on the Empire Builder and Lake Shore. But it was a part of the total package on the Starlight. (I've never ridden Auto Train so can't comment).

I'm fine on the Crescent and the Zephyr.. yes i like the ceramic plates when I ride the Capitol but the food usually tastes better on the Crescent to me... guess which I would prefer? The Crescent with it's better chefs (seriously I've had SUCH good food on the Crescent and SUCH lousy food on the Capitol... I blame it on the crew bases but maybe it's just my luck.)

I have only been on the Crescent and I have to agree the food on the Crescent is awesome,especially this last time coming out of NO. The service was great so not having the flowers and table clothes was not an issue for me. The sleeper was pretty worn,but our SCA made up for that. Give me good service and I'll still ride the rails.

 

[Larry H.]

I agreed with the writer who said the deteriorating amenities had reduced his interest in rail travel. I used to love to take the train. Enjoying a good meal was a real plus.. When they still had first class lounges that was great as well. But after three cross country trips with amtrak, bathrooms in the sleepers not working on two of those, noisy rooms especially on the Lakeshore with its terrible diner on it as well and lounge, well, there really wasn't a lounge. A car full of dinner booths is not a lounge. Trash strewn about the lounges that were decent, bathrooms that no one seemed responsible for, have all had the effect of no longer looking forward to a rail trip.. Its been amtraks problem from early on. No one seems geared to make sure the cars are well cared for, that the windows aren't full of streaks and dirt, that the bathrooms work, especially after knowing for probably 10 years that they don't function right at high altitudes. In other words how "Not to run a railroad". An now as some have said, some very inexpensive things that make a bit of difference in making a trip seem at least a bit special are being removed. Worse the fares keep soaring which granted hasn't stopped people from riding but it is becoming excessive in my mind. Congress is to blame for much of this, but at the level of conditions and service the company has no one to blame but it self. I suppose that amtrak is lucky that so many kids have grown up thinking mc Donald's is a treat..

 

[TVRM610]

Crescent had the cut stuff you mention too. Fact is we don't KNOW what effect the cuts will have - I agree it will be small - but the stuff you mentioned affects all trains.

Not true... Crescent lost flowers on the table in the diner, and newspapers, and cranberry juice in the sleepers. That's all.

 

[VentureForth]

Why hasn't anyone talked about doubling the fare of Acela First Class and removing the free food?

 

[greatcats]

Venture Forth - I just looked up the Acela fares and gasped. Around 5 years ago I paid about $200 for a one way Acela First class from NYP to WAS. i thought that was steep! And they eliminated the comp meals? You won't find me there if I'm on the east coast. Not that high a roller.

 

[JoeRids]

Why hasn't anyone talked about doubling the fare of Acela First Class and removing the free food?

Has this been proposed somewhere? Or are you suggesting this in lieu of (or in addition to) the other cuts?

 

[7deuceman]

Greatcats, thank you for representing in your great letter what seems to be the general sentiment of many Amtrak supporters.

Perhaps a copy of your letter could be shared with NARP? What if a careful and accurate description of the shortcomings in services were presented to Conde Nast Traveler or other travel publications and even travel agents, to elicit support from the travel industry and other parties? Amtrak can no longer be a whipping post for politicos!

A formidable number of travelers boarded Amtrak last year and (we) NEED and DESERVE clean, reliable and modern rail transportation in the USA, for many reasons, just as the Europeans and Asians are receiving. I am tired of hearing a portion of our nation's leaders talk about how America leads the world. Really? It is time for our country to enable Amtrak to serve Americans properly and with the efficiency, service and style that other countries already enjoy in their rail services.

 

[Crossover]

Comment removed .

 

[dlagrua]

We are supposed to have a government of the people, by the people and for the people but it sometimes seems that government is only for some of the people and for the corporate interests. If government is truly there to serve the American people; resources should be directed equally into all forms of travel. The airlines had their airports built with our tax money and they continue to be maintained with our tax money. Highway construction and maintenance is funded by our tax dollars. Bus lines use government roads. It is only rail travel that gets criticized in Washington and yet 10% or more of the passenger traffic in this country rides by rail . Many communities are only served by Amtrak as the only form of transportation and some are 100's of miles from an airport. Yet Washington wants to make Amtrak worse and not better. Go figure!

 

[VentureForth]

Venture Forth - I just looked up the Acela fares and gasped. Around 5 years ago I paid about $200 for a one way Acela First class from NYP to WAS. i thought that was steep! And they eliminated the comp meals? You won't find me there if I'm on the east coast. Not that high a roller.

greatcats - I can see how my little sarcastic note could have been misinterpreted. No, they haven't cut that service - yet. I'm just curious why Acela "free" meals and booze aren't discussed while they're removing flowers and reducing services across the rest of the LD fleet, particularly the "profitable?" Autotrain.

Sorry for any confusion!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I'm just curious why Acela "free" meals and booze aren't discussed while they're removing flowers and reducing services across the rest of the LD fleet

Short answer is the Long Distance Fleet was told to cut expense. No notice of required cuts to NEC or to overhead.

Not a direct quote just what I can recall "budget short fall, Long Distance Fleet to make cuts to cover the shortage." Yes it that simple tell the Long Distance train the amount of overhead they must pay out, but don't allow them to see the numbers of why and where. So no control of the cost from overhead, will equal cuts to the flower on tables. On manger already quit on this issues (IMHO), new manger trying anything.

 

[Shanghai]

Venture Forth - I just looked up the Acela fares and gasped. Around 5 years ago I paid about $200 for a one way Acela First class from NYP to WAS. i thought that was steep! And they eliminated the comp meals? You won't find me there if I'm on the east coast. Not that high a roller.

greatcats - I can see how my little sarcastic note could have been misinterpreted. No, they haven't cut that service - yet. I'm just curious why Acela "free" meals and booze aren't discussed while they're removing flowers and reducing services across the rest of the LD fleet, particularly the "profitable?" Autotrain.

Sorry for any confusion!

Maybe because Joe Biden rides the Acela's!!!

 

[greatcats]

Venture Forth - Thanks for clearing up the confusion. Gave me the laugh for the day!

 

[Paulus]

Venture Forth - I just looked up the Acela fares and gasped. Around 5 years ago I paid about $200 for a one way Acela First class from NYP to WAS. i thought that was steep! And they eliminated the comp meals? You won't find me there if I'm on the east coast. Not that high a roller.

greatcats - I can see how my little sarcastic note could have been misinterpreted. No, they haven't cut that service - yet. I'm just curious why Acela "free" meals and booze aren't discussed while they're removing flowers and reducing services across the rest of the LD fleet, particularly the "profitable?" Autotrain.

Sorry for any confusion!

Because Acela makes money while all the LD trains lose money hand over fist?

 

[neroden]

Not a direct quote just what I can recall "budget short fall, Long Distance Fleet to make cuts to cover the shortage." Yes it that simple tell the Long Distance train the amount of overhead they must pay out, but don't allow them to see the numbers of why and where. So no control of the cost from overhead, will equal cuts to the flower on tables. On manger already quit on this issues (IMHO), new manger trying anything.

This is just dumb. I can see why the first manager would quit; you can't do your job when your bosses are being dumb, and just throwing mindless edicts at you.

What especially irks me is the ludicrous conflation of every so-called "long distance" train with every other. I'm going to stop using the term except when other idiots use it.

It's like conflating the Hoosier State or the Ethan Allen "Express" (slowest "express" ever) with the Lynchburg service.

Incidentally, Acela doesn't make money when truly overhead-loaded -- it still relies on massive expenditures on the NEC which need to be made periodically. It makes an "operating profit", but that's a very specific thing, which is not a bottom-line profit.

When you load on all the capital expenses, nothing on Amtrak makes money.

If you don't load on any of the overhead and look strictly at avoidable costs -- ignoring network effects -- you find that most of the corridor services are huge cash drains. Thanks to PRIIA, now they're cash drains on state governments rather than on Amtrak / the federal government. And if you do the same for the Silver Meteor, you find that it adds money to Amtrak's bottom line: it's a source of cash.

Accounting for railroads isn't simple. It is just as valid to say "Acela loses money hand over fist and the Silver Meteor makes money" as it is to say the opposite; neither is really a valid statement, as it all depends on what you choose to count.

Unfortunately this means that decisions regarding changes in service on a railroad have to be made *very* carefully, with a holistic view. If you're competent, you *can't* just tell a subdivision to "cut costs". Actually, that never works in any business, but it's even more extreme in railroading.

 

[neroden]

Not a direct quote just what I can recall "budget short fall, Long Distance Fleet to make cuts to cover the shortage."

Any recent budget shortfall is due to Operations and Mechanical and host railroads being unable to get the trains out on time during the inclement weather.

Telling the long-distance operations poeple to "make cuts" is not a sane reaction. Firing a bunch of people in Operations and Mechanical (perhaps at 14th St. in Chicago) and replacing them with lower-paid people might be a sane reaction or it might not, but at least it would have some nexus of connection with the source of the problem.

 

[Paulus]

What especially irks me is the ludicrous conflation of every so-called "long distance" train with every other. I'm going to stop using the term except when other idiots use it.

It's like conflating the Hoosier State or the Ethan Allen "Express" (slowest "express" ever) with the Lynchburg service.

Slower even than all those commuter rail services which call themselves Expresses?

Incidentally, Acela doesn't make money when truly overhead-loaded -- it still relies on massive expenditures on the NEC which need to be made periodically. It makes an "operating profit", but that's a very specific thing, which is not a bottom-line profit.

When you load on all the capital expenses, nothing on Amtrak makes money.

Actually the Acela and Northeast Regional make enough to cover their share of NEC MOW. Probably enough money to pay for their replacements as well. They don't make enough money on their own to cover restoring to a good state of repair, but the deferred maintenance goes back to World War II, so not exactly surprising there.

If you don't load on any of the overhead and look strictly at avoidable costs -- ignoring network effects -- you find that most of the corridor services are huge cash drains. Thanks to PRIIA, now they're cash drains on state governments rather than on Amtrak / the federal government. And if you do the same for the Silver Meteor, you find that it adds money to Amtrak's bottom line: it's a source of cash.

Nope. Meteor loses money. And I don't believe you actually have access to Amtrak's avoidable costs. And before you try and bring up up that one Boardman presentation, which did not show corridors btw, "direct costs" are neither short term avoidable costs or long term avoidable costs but a different sort of fish all together.

Accounting for railroads isn't simple. It is just as valid to say "Acela loses money hand over fist and the Silver Meteor makes money" as it is to say the opposite; neither is really a valid statement, as it all depends on what you choose to count.

No, there's really no consistent way to make that statement.