Another new SL proposal

[NativeSon5859]

Not sure if anyone has heard about this one...in the latest edition of Passenger Train Journal:

* Daily Los Angeles-Dallas "Sunset Limited" via Phoenix, El Paso and Abilene

* Daily Dallas - New Orleans - Orlando (by way of Shreveport and Baton Rouge) called the "Cajun King"

* No more service between El Paso, San Antonio, Houston, and New Orleans

* Heartland Flyer extended to Dallas and Houston via the old TE route

"...it totally reroutes the Sunset Limited away from its traditional route across central Texas (San Antonio & Houston), and it instead goes via Fort Worth and Dallas. The difference is that the Sunset would be split into two different trains at Dallas. The Los Angeles-Dallas train, which would retain the Sunset Limited name, would become a daily train, and have service restored via Phoenix. Eastbound, it would leave LAX at 10:30 PM and get to Phoenix early the next morning. It would follow the traditional Sunset route to Sierra Blanca, TX, a little southeast of El Paso, where it would then follow the ex-T&P mainline via Abilene into Fort Worth and Dallas. It would get to Dallas on the second morning 11:20 AM. Westbound it would leave DAL 6:30 PM, get to Phoenix about 24 hours later, and then run a second overnight into LAX, getting there 6:30 AM.

The other part of the Sunset from Dallas all the way to Orlando, would be known as the Cajun King. It would leave Dallas eastbound at 5:45 PM, run east to Marshall on the same tracks that the Texas Eagle uses, then continues on the ex-T&P route to Shreveport. Overnight it would follow Kansas City Southern trackage via Alexandria and Baton Rouge, and arrive into New Orleans 10:30 AM. It would then leave NOL early afternoon and follow the Sunset's route over CSX as it did until August 2005. It would provide daylight service to Mobile and Pensacola, hit Tallahassee late night, and make its Jacksonville stop overnight in the wee hours. It would arrive in Orlando 6:30 AM the following morning. In the westbound direction, the Cajun King would leave ORL 10:30 PM, again service JAX overnight, and then serve the Florida Panhandle cities and Mobile during the daytime. It would arrive NOL 5:45 PM. Two hours later it would leave NOL, get to Shreveport very early the next morning, and arrive in Dallas 11:45 AM."

 

[ourlouisiana]

Why not turn the TE westward from Ft Worth, following the old T&R route to El Paso, joining with the Sunset, let the Sunset go on it's own on it's present route.

Don't think that the TE picks up many passengers from San Antonio to Dallas.

 

[cpamtfan]

Why not turn the TE westward from Ft Worth, following the old T&R route to El Paso, joining with the Sunset, let the Sunset go on it's own on it's present route.
Don't think that the TE picks up many passengers from San Antonio to Dallas.

What about Austin? Thats an up and coming city (from what I've heard). I think there should just be a Transcon Sunset four times a week, a cross country Texas Eage (ie Golden State) three times a week. On the days that they aren't running all the way to LA or whatever, just run the regular current TE route and a ORL-HOU train. Is the trackage between Austin and Houston still intact? Maybe they could reroute the TE to serve Houston or something.

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[Sam31452]

What really worries me about the whole story is, that a state of the size of France isn't willing to spend a few dollars on 3 trains. (I agree there is just one third of the inhabitants), but if the state of Texas would agree to establish two to three daily trains on a few routes, just like California then there would be reliable good public transport.

 

[Acela150]

I read that article. It seem like a interesting idea.

Stephen

 

[henryj]

I read that article. It seem like a interesting idea.
Stephen

I can't believe that PTJ would put forth such a stupid idea. They obviously know nothing about Texas.

 

[Steve4031]

I read that article. It seem like a interesting idea.
Stephen

I can't believe that PTJ would put forth such a stupid idea. They obviously know nothing about Texas.

What don't they know about Texas? I don't necessarily like the idea, but to just say it is stupid does not make since. Dallas would become a type of hub, and Shreveport, Midland, Odessa, and probably a few other cities would gain Amtrak service. Also, there would again be train service east of New Orleans. These are all good things.

I am not so sure that I like the idea of there being no train between New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso. These are large population centers connected by Interstate 10. I think there is room for some sort of service along this route.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That seems convoluted and silly. I'd leave everything how it is, but divide the trains at San Antonio.

 

[henryj]

I read that article. It seem like a interesting idea.
Stephen

I can't believe that PTJ would put forth such a stupid idea. They obviously know nothing about Texas.

What don't they know about Texas? I don't necessarily like the idea, but to just say it is stupid does not make since. Dallas would become a type of hub, and Shreveport, Midland, Odessa, and probably a few other cities would gain Amtrak service. Also, there would again be train service east of New Orleans. These are all good things.

I am not so sure that I like the idea of there being no train between New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso. These are large population centers connected by Interstate 10. I think there is room for some sort of service along this route.

Ok, let me calm down and try and explain a few of the hundreds of reasons this won't work. Here is what PTJ said:

Eastbound, it would leave LAX at 10:30 PM and get to Phoenix early the next morning. It would follow the traditional Sunset route to Sierra Blanca, TX, a little southeast of El Paso, where it would then follow the ex-T&P mainline via Abilene into Fort Worth and Dallas. It would get to Dallas on the second morning 11:20 AM. Westbound it would leave DAL 6:30 PM, get to Phoenix about 24 hours later, and then run a second overnight into LAX, getting there 6:30 AM.

This schedule he spouts out is bogus even if he could go through Phoenix which he can't because the track west of Phoenix is out of service and belongs to the UP. Leaving LAX at 10:30 PM is the traditional time the SL used to leave, but....that puts it into El Paso around 3:30PM. If you then divert up the Baird Sub it's 12-14 hours or 613 miles El Paso to Ft Worth. That puts you into Ft Worth at 6:30AM, not 11:20AM and then what does it do??? Layover in Ft Worth until the usual Eagle departure time of 2:20PM? Westbound he wants to leave Dallas at 6:30PM. What is the schedule from Chi to Dallas??? Right now the Eagle gets in at Noon. If you use the typical timing west of Ft Worth then you would leave Ft Worth at 8:40PM and arrive in El Paso at 9:40AM, Maricopa(or 'Phoenix' - take your choice) at 6:30PM and LAX at 2:30AM. Whaaaaat? What is he going to do have this train sit somewhere for four hours so it arrives at 6:30AM It's nuts. Obviously whoever dreamed this up did not do the math.

Then there is this so called 'Cajun King' thing. That route to New Orleans is 515 miles and T&P used to run it in around 12 hours. So after laying over in Dallas for five hours you now arrive in NOL early in the morning and layover for a few more hours to leave in the afternoon. I quote:

"arrive into New Orleans 10:30 AM. It would then leave NOL early afternoon and follow the Sunset's route over CSX as it did until August 2005. It would provide daylight service to Mobile and Pensacola, hit Tallahassee late night, and make its Jacksonville stop overnight in the wee hours. It would arrive in Orlando 6:30 AM the following morning. In the westbound direction, the Cajun King would leave ORL 10:30 PM, again service JAX overnight, and then serve the Florida Panhandle cities and Mobile during the daytime. It would arrive NOL 5:45 PM. Two hours later it would leave NOL, get to Shreveport very early the next morning, and arrive in Dallas 11:45 AM."

Well if you leave NOL in the early afternoon, say 2PM, then you are going to arrive at JAX in the morning and into Orlando around noon. Westbound if you leave ORL at 10:30PM, good God what kind of schedule is that and he has you laying over in Dallas for another 6 hours.

Whoever wrote that article is either totally ignorant of the distances involved and the timings to cross them or just threw that out there to see if anyone was listening. It's totally bogus and if Amtrak ever ran anything like that you can just write them off in Texas. But then maybe that's the goal here.

 

[Steve4031]

You bring up valid points. This was also mentioned on OTOL yesterday, and I also brought up the tracks west of Phoenix. So I agree with you on that point.

I also don't like the idea of laying over in Dallas for so long, but I think there thought is that Cajun King and the SL would be operated by different sets of equipment, and that the equipment would be turned and serviced in Dallas. As we both know, Dallas does not have a yard to service the trains, nor a commissary, or any of the other infrastructure for this operation. Plus, the station there is just a waiting room, ticket office, and baggage handling place. I think it was remodeled a few years ago, but there were no shops, restuarants, or anything else for people on a layover. So that issue would have to be addressed to.

A lot of money would have to be invested to make this work, and I don't know that this would even make since. It probably won't happen anyway.

Did not mean any disrespect. I was just curious about what your thoughts were.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

This was probably devised and put out there by someone who lives in Dallas. SAS would make a lot more sense, since Amtrak already has the crew there.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Also, from what I remember reading on here, it would be quite the ordeal crossing the river in Baton Rouge, with very slow running speeds in the area and non-signaled track. Maybe someone can verify?

 

[Steve4031]

I don't know about the tracks in Baton Rouge, but the current Sunset Limited route has been double tracked in a lot of areas. I think most of this was done west of El Paso. Though this is not yet complete, the running times of the SL has improved dramatically. Thus some of the padding could be removed. It does not make since to take the SL off of this route IMHO.

Since New Orleans already has the crew base, it would make more since to run the Cajun King from NO to Orlando. I think the Crescent star would be a good addition to the Amtrak map but extend it to Ft. Worth, but this would necessitate some sort of crew base in Ft. Worth, and maybe Atlanta. It might make more since to run this as a train that is separate from the Crescent.

The Texas Eagle, IMHO, could continue west out of Ft. Worth to El Paso. And maybe be combined to the SL there.

The Heartland Flyer could easily go from Oklahoma City to San Antonio, still making connections with the Eagle in Fort Worth. A separate day train could operate Ft. Worth, Dallas and onto Houston on the old Texas Eagle route. It seems to me that Ft. Worth could handle this if it was already handling the Heartland Flyer.

I don't know what has been done between New Orleans and Houston, but IIRC, this was single track with passing sidings, and it was a part of the route that was a source of delays too.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I just think something has to be done about the ridiculously long layover in SAS. Even for the Sunset, it's something like 2 and 1/2 hours in each direction. If they didn't have to uncouple the TE cars and the associated work that goes along with that, I would not expect a layover of more than :30 there. Imagine how that would help the NOL-LAX running time. Saving two hours would be a great thing. And for the TE passengers...well, it's not exactly ideal...having a nice 7-hour+ layover in SAS in the middle of the night. I'm sure most sleep right through it, but it's not very efficient.

Something has to be done.

 

[Shanghai]

I've spent several hours at the Dallas station on four occasions. Other than Dealy Plaza and a couple of restaurants, there isn't much to do in the immediate area. Add to that, on the DAL to CHI route, the arrival of the train is often late and not always announced in the station. I would not like a 6 hour layover in DAL.

 

[printman2000]

I've spent several hours at the Dallas station on four occasions. Other than Dealy Plaza and a couple of restaurants, there isn't much to do in the immediate area. Add to that, on the DAL to CHI route, the arrival of the train is often late and not always announced in the station. I would not like a 6 hour layover in DAL.

Yeah, Dallas, as it is now, would not be a very nice hub. It would need to significant upgrades. Fort Worth would actually be nicer right now than Dallas.

 

[printman2000]

They change this plan to have the train pass through Lubbock or Amarillo (instead of Abilene) and I am all for it!

 

[daveyb99]

Yeah, Dallas, as it is now, would not be a very nice hub. It would need to significant upgrades. Fort Worth would actually be nicer right now than Dallas.

But the bigger problem is AMTRAK has ZERO service facilities in DAL. All their service facilities are FTW. DAL has one extra track on the current platform (but needs a carefully positioned train so as to not block access to the platform), FTW has room to expand, maybe to an additional two platforms, and enlarge their station area.

Union Station Dallas is a historic place, but I would pick FTW any day...

 

[had8ley]

Why not turn the TE westward from Ft Worth, following the old T&R route to El Paso, joining with the Sunset, let the Sunset go on it's own on it's present route.
Don't think that the TE picks up many passengers from San Antonio to Dallas.

Austin and Fort Worth are heavy boarding/de-training points. Don't have the revenue figures but they are viable stops in any plans. I would love to see a Baton Rouge to NOL train; good golly it's been talked and studied to death since the KCS (L&A) pulled it off in the late 60's. That round end Southern Belle observation car in Jackson looks like a relic from another time.

 

[had8ley]

I read that article. It seem like a interesting idea.
Stephen

I can't believe that PTJ would put forth such a stupid idea. They obviously know nothing about Texas.

What don't they know about Texas? I don't necessarily like the idea, but to just say it is stupid does not make since. Dallas would become a type of hub, and Shreveport, Midland, Odessa, and probably a few other cities would gain Amtrak service. Also, there would again be train service east of New Orleans. These are all good things.

I am not so sure that I like the idea of there being no train between New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso. These are large population centers connected by Interstate 10. I think there is room for some sort of service along this route.

Ok, let me calm down and try and explain a few of the hundreds of reasons this won't work. Here is what PTJ said:

Eastbound, it would leave LAX at 10:30 PM and get to Phoenix early the next morning. It would follow the traditional Sunset route to Sierra Blanca, TX, a little southeast of El Paso, where it would then follow the ex-T&P mainline via Abilene into Fort Worth and Dallas. It would get to Dallas on the second morning 11:20 AM. Westbound it would leave DAL 6:30 PM, get to Phoenix about 24 hours later, and then run a second overnight into LAX, getting there 6:30 AM.

This schedule he spouts out is bogus even if he could go through Phoenix which he can't because the track west of Phoenix is out of service and belongs to the UP.

There is some meat here~ its called Stimulus $$$. The UP ripped up Rosenberg, TX south and gave the right of way to the KCS who were tired of having to run all the way to Flatonia to head south to the Mexican border under trackage rights. So...what do we do do? Build the track over again. The DM&E wanted Billions to get to the Powder River. When Uncle Sam balked they brought in the heavy guns from Canada. My point being; either the UP really doesn't want the track and will sell it off OR they will be standing on Pennsylvania Avenue with a gang of lobbyists crying poor mouth and looking for money to re-do the line. Don't be surprised if Amtrak winds up owning Phoenix west as Arizona is not friendly territory for Amtrak (i.e. John McCain.) Moral of the story~ if you want a RR just build your own.

 

[AlanB]

I just think something has to be done about the ridiculously long layover in SAS. Even for the Sunset, it's something like 2 and 1/2 hours in each direction. If they didn't have to uncouple the TE cars and the associated work that goes along with that, I would not expect a layover of more than :30 there. Imagine how that would help the NOL-LAX running time. Saving two hours would be a great thing. And for the TE passengers...well, it's not exactly ideal...having a nice 7-hour+ layover in SAS in the middle of the night. I'm sure most sleep right through it, but it's not very efficient.
Something has to be done.

The long layover has nothing to do with switching other work that occurs in SAS. The long layover is simply padding to get the Sunset back on schedule. Eliminate the delays enroute, and the padding goes away.

 

[henryj]

You bring up valid points. This was also mentioned on OTOL yesterday, and I also brought up the tracks west of Phoenix. So I agree with you on that point.
I also don't like the idea of laying over in Dallas for so long, but I think there thought is that Cajun King and the SL would be operated by different sets of equipment, and that the equipment would be turned and serviced in Dallas. As we both know, Dallas does not have a yard to service the trains, nor a commissary, or any of the other infrastructure for this operation. Plus, the station there is just a waiting room, ticket office, and baggage handling place. I think it was remodeled a few years ago, but there were no shops, restuarants, or anything else for people on a layover. So that issue would have to be addressed to.

A lot of money would have to be invested to make this work, and I don't know that this would even make since. It probably won't happen anyway.

Did not mean any disrespect. I was just curious about what your thoughts were.

Steve, I read the OTOL comments and basically you have a bunch of railfans talking about new mileage. Lets get practical. West of Ft Worth across the 612 miles to El Paso the largest towns are Abilene(158,000) and Midland-Odessa(256,000). In all the total population for the entire 612 miles is barely 500,000. San Antonio by contrast has 1.9 million people alone and Austin(the Capitol of Texas)-Round Rock Metro area is another 1.6 million. The whole I-35 corridor is densly populated.

Then you have the problem of scheduling. The Eagle route through San Antonio to El Paso takes 22 hours with a two hour layover in SAS. The route out the Baird Sub would take only 13-14 hours. So the Trains schedule west of El Paso would change drastically to day trains between Maricopa and LAX both directions and the timings into El Paso would be around Midnight or later. This would be the case even if you just split the Sunset at El Paso. Something would have to change drastically in the schedule of one of the two trains. Back when the T&P ran the west Texas Eagle sections it also had another train on the route on an opposite timing. The through sleepers from LAX that came through on the Sunset had other timing options. Now days, Amtrak has to make one train do the work of many. Hence the long circuitous routings through major metropolitan areas.

Amtrak, even with the new money, has little squirming room. It has to do what is practical. So the Sunset/Eagle is their best option with the connecting train to Houston, New Orleans and possibly Florida. What Amtrak has said is when more equipment becomes available through the rebuilding progam, they could run through sleepers and coaches on the stub trains to connect with the Sunset/Eagle/Golden State in SAS. They are also going to fix the timing into SAS so there is no long layover there and will have across the platform transfers between the Eagle and the stub train east.

As for the 'Cajun King', I don't know what to say except that route never amounted to much when the T&P ran it and I doubt it would generate much interest today, but at least it would give DFW a connection to New Orleans, and with connections, to Atlanta or Florida. The DFW passengers wanting to go to the east coast would still have to go through Chicago probably unless Amtrak resurects the National Limited between St Louis and DC/NYC and that route was such a looser it was killed back during the Carter/Reagan era.

All this speculation is interesting of course and many of us have looked into it and calculated up schedules to see what was practical, but Amtrak is still very limited in equipment and what they can actually do. I think there are other routes that are just crying out for service that should be addressed first such as DFW to Colorado and Chicago to Florida plus additional Auto Train routes, particularly in the west and restoration of the Desert Wind/Pioneer etc.

Finally, Amtrak or the AZDOT may someday buy the Phoenix line from UP, but for just one train a day it hardly makes economic sense today. Most people would be happy if they would just furnish a shuttle van or bus between Maricopa and Phoenix. Lets start with that.

 

[arubafanatic]

Livning in Dallas you guys wouldn't realize, but the the local train runs on the same tracks as Amtrak, so you can take the local DART -Dallas Area Rapid Transit - like 2 stops to the west end and there are restaurants out the wazoo there and the trains run every 20 minutes or so during the week. Not that I'm a big fan of Dallas being originally from NYC and all. Any service that connects Dallas with both ends of the country makes me happy at this point, although service to Houston and El Paso would have to be available. Houston is the larget city in Texas, it has to be connected and you should be able to go from 1 end of TX to another.

 

[henryj]

Houston is the larget city in Texas, it has to be connected and you should be able to go from 1 end of TX to another.

And you would think you could connect Texas two largest metro areas with rail service wouldn't you. I still can't understand the reasoning for all these proposals for high speed rail or corridor rail that leave out Houston-Dallas. It's like all these study groups have a mental block.