Anti-Amtrak Editorial in Chattanooga

[Bill Haithcoat]

Here is a link that has the history of the Western and Atlantic Railraod between Atlanta and Chattanooga which was built and is stilled owned today by the State of Georgia and leased to CSX. It does travel throughSymrna and Marietta and was the last of the two lines between Atlanta and Chattanoogs to have passenger trains through April 30, 1971. Western and Atlantic

And I was on that train, the last trip southbound,May 2, 1971. It was the remnant of the famed "Georgian". Down to two coaches on that run, with a snack bar set up at the end of one coach. But they were nice streamlined coaches, not heavyweight mothball equipment so many trains degenerated down to. It arrived Atlanta 2 hrs 35 minutes late.

Return home that night to Chattanooga was by Greyhound bus. Funny thing about that run, there was an article in the paper naming the crew and it turns out that the conductor on that last run was the father of a guy I know at my present employment in Atlanta. Small world.

 

[J. Brian Shultz]

Well being a Railfan, I would love to AMTRAK in Tennessee. I live in Knoxville, Tn. In the middle of CSX & Norfolk Southern Country. I would love To HAVE PASSENGER SERVICE IN THIS AREA.My Family and I LOVE TO TRAVEL BY TRAIN. We have to Go to Ashville or charolette N.C. to Catch it now

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Like most people that seem to write these "Anti Amtrak" editorials, the person who wrote the article in question has probably never set foot on an Amtrak train and probably spends a great deal of time searching the internet for websites with consumer complaints about a late train or a rude employee. It doesn't matter what method of travel is used, those types of complaints are generated against Airlines and Bus Service as well.

I've lost count of the times I've heard crap about trains in general, and Amtrak in particular. Long ago I grew weary of the overall ignorance, and started asking "When was the last time you rode a train?" Usually it turns out the person never has, and was speaking from total ignorance. Rather than get mad about it (though I might be fuming inside - not about the person but about the misconception) if I have time, I say "Let's got for a ride. I'll pay." Once in awhile somebody actually does, and their opinion is transformed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Articles of this type are great for railfans. It contains almost no facts- and all of the facts contained in here are fuzzy at best. It has no demonstration of knowledge. The guy comes off as a right wing imbecile, and a self-important jackass. Supporting articles like this is like supporting ku-klux-klan marches. We find the stupidity/bigotry/ineptitude of their actions/words to be self-evident.

 

[RailFanLNK]

I have no hard feelings about Chattanooga, but it was where I learned a lesson on race relations in 1972. I was just 9 years old and a hick from the sticks (Nebraska) on our way to Disneyworld via Emory College in Atlanta where my sis was to begin graduate school. We were looking for a hotel in Chattanooga and got lost. A police officer pulled us over and asked, "what are you doing in this neighborhood?" My dad told him that we were lost and he said, "you sure are". He then proceeded to drive us directly to the hotel we were looking for. I've always had some anxiety since that day when I get "lost" in a "tough" neighborhood. A tad bit later there was people being beaten for swimming in the swimming pool at the hotel. They were "guests" of the hotel but not the correct race to be swimming in the pool. Being a kid from Nebraska, I had absolutely no clue what was going on, but started figuring out that things were alot different down there: "Why are you in this neighborhood?" and watching people being beat to crud for using the pool they were paying to use. May have been 36 years ago, but it seems like just yesteday.

Mail that letter, or better yet, UPS it Next Day Air! Send me the bill, it will be around $17.00 and I will gladly pay for it. When folks talk about trains being subsidized....I always remind them that are schools are (public), so are our highways and interstates, FAA, Fire Dept's, Cops, Libraries..................................

 

[Guest]

"I would love to AMTRAK in Tennessee. I live in Knoxville, Tn. In the middle of CSX & Norfolk Southern Country. I would love To HAVE PASSENGER SERVICE IN THIS AREA...."

J. Brian,

Please get involved in the political process and let those who represent you know this.

Railrookie and Green Thing:

Digressing. Southern race relations is a topic near and dear to my heart. The other side of the coin, railrookie, is that men like my Daddy (a 7th generation Atlantan with pre-Civil war roots in Atlanta...white) volunteered with the U.S. Department of Justice after the Voting Rights Acts/ Civil Rights Acts (can't remember at this point the exact titles) of the the 1960's and not only watched polls across the South (in places like south Alabama and Mississippi) from nearby barns with binoculars but personally escorted those who had previously been unable to vote into the voting booths of these areas and held the curtain and watched the levers to ensure their vote was counted, enduring the disdain of his fellow countrymen. During the same era he was receiving invitations to join the KKK, an organization I detest and view as cowardly. Unfortunately, it still exists, and in some places seems to be viewed as benign as the VFW.

I firmly believe in using the political process (paid staff on gubernatorial campaign a few years back) and like someone else wrote, have seen blurbs from my writings show up in speeches and articles. Emails don't necessarily cut it. If you mean it, send it through the mail system. Make it concise, factual without boring, not insulting, give them speaking points and tell how it would make your or your neighbor's lives better.

 

[VentureForth]

I think the author is just sore that Amtrak doesn't serve Chatanooga. Interestingly, I've met more than just a few folks here in Savannah who commute back and forth to Chatanooga...

For as big a state that Tennessee is, it is only served by two stops on almost the Western border...

Same goes for Kentucky. Almost completely devoid of service. If they had it, they would love it...

 

[MrFSS]

Same goes for Kentucky. Almost completely devoid of service. If they had it, they would love it...

I know I would. I have to fly or drive 100 miles to see an Amtrak train!

 

[had8ley]

And just who was it that bailed out Lee Iacoca and Chrysler ???? Somebody needs to do a little better research on passenger train revenues before they dis the entire Amtrak network.

 

[dan72]

As I have stated before, if we are going to get worked up about taxpayer waste, let's look at the money that was wasted on Katrina recovery efforts (and I am speaking about specific incidents of waste, not the recovery as a whole), government waste ($100 for a hammer), congressional retirement plans, medicare fraud, bridge to nowhere, etc, etc those incidents of waste could fund Amtrak for YEARS and with new equipment to boot as well!

Dan

 

[wayman]

As I have stated before, if we are going to get worked up about taxpayer waste, let's look at the money that was wasted on Katrina recovery efforts (and I am speaking about specific incidents of waste, not the recovery as a whole), government waste ($100 for a hammer), congressional retirement plans, medicare fraud, bridge to nowhere, etc, etc those incidents of waste could fund Amtrak for YEARS and with new equipment to boot as well!

Just looked up Bridge to Nowhere on Wikipedia, and was very relieved to read

The project was canceled on September 21, 2007 by Alaska's governor Sarah Palin. "Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer", said Governor Palin. "Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project,..."

Nice way to try to put a positive spin on being only $329 million short! Let's hope similar idiocies get canned, and actual nationally-benefiting transportation (you know what I mean ) gets the funding.

 

[dan72]

Yes, I'm glad to governor finally brought some common sense to the issue. $329 million short...wonder how that would have balloned to had that bridge actually been completed?

For the sake of apples to apples...how many people would this bridge have served? How many people does Amtrak serve? Peg me aS naive, but I think Amtrak would win from that standpoint.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

"I would love to AMTRAK in Tennessee. I live in Knoxville, Tn. In the middle of CSX & Norfolk Southern Country. I would love To HAVE PASSENGER SERVICE IN THIS AREA...."
J. Brian,

Please get involved in the political process and let those who represent you know this.

Railrookie and Green Thing:

Digressing. Southern race relations is a topic near and dear to my heart. The other side of the coin, railrookie, is that men like my Daddy (a 7th generation Atlantan with pre-Civil war roots in Atlanta...white) volunteered with the U.S. Department of Justice after the Voting Rights Acts/ Civil Rights Acts (can't remember at this point the exact titles) of the the 1960's and not only watched polls across the South (in places like south Alabama and Mississippi) from nearby barns with binoculars but personally escorted those who had previously been unable to vote into the voting booths of these areas and held the curtain and watched the levers to ensure their vote was counted, enduring the disdain of his fellow countrymen. During the same era he was receiving invitations to join the KKK, an organization I detest and view as cowardly. Unfortunately, it still exists, and in some places seems to be viewed as benign as the VFW.

I firmly believe in using the political process (paid staff on gubernatorial campaign a few years back) and like someone else wrote, have seen blurbs from my writings show up in speeches and articles. Emails don't necessarily cut it. If you mean it, send it through the mail system. Make it concise, factual without boring, not insulting, give them speaking points and tell how it would make your or your neighbor's lives better.

I wasn't suggesting support of the KKK- I detest them, and anyone else who feels a need to judge people based on any number of visual or historical characteristics that do not specifically deal with a individual on their own terms. I was saying that it is good when they go marching around like buffoons dressed like a ghost on halloween, because they make it unequivocally clear how stupid their Klan- and all it represents- is.

 

[stonesfan]

Exactly the same problem we have in the UK.

People carp and moan about the lack of transport links, but woe betide should they actually contribute a tiny percentage of their taxes towards building something that they want to use.

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

I absolutely guarantee people would use it, especially commuters. Just look at Japan's bullet trains to see how a high speed commuter railway works. Building high speed rail from major cities could mean people could afford to live to a decent standard in the countryside, and yet be able to work in the City.

But would they want to pay for its construction?

 

[wayman]

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

Big problem with your plan: it requires the existence of major cities 150 miles apart. That's not so common in this country.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

One of the problems with that is the limited mass transit in far too many of our cities. New York probably has the most complete network of mass rapid transit, which makes taking the train, for me, the only option. You can get pretty much anywhere in downtown Manhattan from Penn Station in half an hour, between subways, busses, and walking. That is probably why New York has the most populated mass-transit commuter systems. There's scores of them: Long Island Rail Road, MetroNorth Railroad, New Jersey Transit Rail, Port Authority Trans-Hudson, Amtrak's Regionals, New York Water Taxi, SeaStreak Ferries, Staten Island Ferry, Hoboken Ferries, and more.

But on the other hand, consider Baltimore. Baltimore has a single basic light rail line, a single subway line, and MARC. Buses seem to make up the major part of their commuter system, and they are... limited by traffic problems. MARC is not going to be very successful unless there is a cheap and fast way to move out and about the city from Baltimore Pennsylvania

 

[AlanB]

One of the problems with that is the limited mass transit in far too many of our cities. New York probably has the most complete network of mass rapid transit, which makes taking the train, for me, the only option. You can get pretty much anywhere in downtown Manhattan from Penn Station in half an hour, between subways, busses, and walking. That is probably why New York has the most populated mass-transit commuter systems. There's scores of them: Long Island Rail Road, MetroNorth Railroad, New Jersey Transit Rail, Port Authority Trans-Hudson, Amtrak's Regionals, New York Water Taxi, SeaStreak Ferries, Staten Island Ferry, Hoboken Ferries, and more.

NY has one of the best systems largely because they never dismantled their original system, unlike many other cities that ripped up all of their tracks. But even NY City and surrounding area did loose some of it's tracks, some of which are sorely needed now. Especially in New Jersey where they are looking at rebuilding several lines that were ripped out years ago.

But NYC is also the shining example that mass transit can and does work in this country. And as city after city does start to rebuild their network, in almost all cases people just flock to the rails.

 

[wayman]

... mass rapid transit ... Staten Island Ferry ...

I'll give it "mass" and say that my ride was definitely pleasant, but... "rapid"?

 

[GB Bari]

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

Big problem with your plan: it requires the existence of major cities 150 miles apart. That's not so common in this country.

Excellent point. The following are just my observations and opinions.

One of the outstanding characteristics of Europe - take Germany for example - is that the vast majority of the population live in population centers such as cities, towns, villages. In between it becomes immediately rural and agrarian. In America, due to the heavy federal subsidization of the highways starting 60 years ago, our population has steadily oozed out of the "population centers" and into the vast suburban sprawl in many parts of the country. The DC to Boston "megalopolis" is the most popular example - which keeps the Amtrak NEC pretty busy. Out in Chatanooga country, a train will require lots of trackage (and the associated costs of maint.) compared to the number of potential revenue-generating centers (i.e. towns and cities whose population want or need to commute to another population center). So it becomes a decision to provide service with few expectations of recouping much of the cost.

Rail transportation is ideally suited to get people from one population center to the next. That's why they work so well in Europe and Japan. The drive park and ride feature that Wayman mentioned is the way to get rail to work for us in the USA, but it will be costly to either refurb existing old freight ROW's for passenger service, or resurrect ROWs that have been built over (or turned into Rails-to-Trails, :angry: ), or build new ROWs.

I tried approaching Maryland Transportation to see if they might consider establishing MARC service on the B&O Old Main Line from Baltimore to Mt. Airy. The state agency was not even interested; despite extremely heavy commuter congestion on I-70 which essentially paralles that trackage. They cited too much cost to refurb the OML for passenger service (curious since CSX runs a lot of freight service on it now and the ROW is very well maintained with good speeds. The employee with whom I emailed said they might try bus service before they tried passenger trains (heavy rail). I suggested that the busses have to run in and add to the same congestion that's already tying up the highways. That didn't seem to sink in.... :unsure:

So Chatanooga surely has an uphill battle to get service.

GB

 

[George Harris]

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

Big problem with your plan: it requires the existence of major cities 150 miles apart. That's not so common in this country.

150 miles is not a magic number. Simply one pulled out of the air. The same would be true if the distance was 200 miles, 250 miles or more. Just that the time would be a little longer.

Let's look at one that is real for me tomorrow: I need to be in Los Angeles for a 9:30 meeting. Have a flight out of Oakland at 7:05, arrive Orange County at 8:30 something. That means that I must walk out of my apartment at 5:00 am, catch BART, then AirBART bus to airport. If the Calif. HSR were real, with service San Francisco to LA, I could walk out of my apartment at 5:30 go to Caltrain or the Transbay Terminal (both are potential starting points), catch a 6:00 train and arrive in LA Union Station at 8:30. Now, which is easier?

 

[stonesfan]

Yep, you are very correct there. 150 was just a figure pulled out of the air. Maybe a better way to have put it would have been 'cities that require a lengthly drive, or a 45 minute long but extremely inconvenient and prone to delay flight'! ie those between 150-300 miles.

I'm not sure if the US long distance market would benefit from conventional high speed rail at 180mph. But would probably require the next generation of steel wheel high speed rail of which proposes speeds of 275mph in every day service. Of which then begins to become a competitor for short-medium haul flights.

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

Big problem with your plan: it requires the existence of major cities 150 miles apart. That's not so common in this country.

150 miles is not a magic number. Simply one pulled out of the air. The same would be true if the distance was 200 miles, 250 miles or more. Just that the time would be a little longer.

Let's look at one that is real for me tomorrow: I need to be in Los Angeles for a 9:30 meeting. Have a flight out of Oakland at 7:05, arrive Orange County at 8:30 something. That means that I must walk out of my apartment at 5:00 am, catch BART, then AirBART bus to airport. If the Calif. HSR were real, with service San Francisco to LA, I could walk out of my apartment at 5:30 go to Caltrain or the Transbay Terminal (both are potential starting points), catch a 6:00 train and arrive in LA Union Station at 8:30. Now, which is easier?

 

[George Harris]

Yep, you are very correct there. 150 was just a figure pulled out of the air. Maybe a better way to have put it would have been 'cities that require a lengthly drive, or a 45 minute long but extremely inconvenient and prone to delay flight'! ie those between 150-300 miles.
I'm not sure if the US long distance market would benefit from conventional high speed rail at 180mph. But would probably require the next generation of steel wheel high speed rail of which proposes speeds of 275mph in every day service. Of which then begins to become a competitor for short-medium haul flights.

The way forward in the USA surely has to be park and ride high speed lines between major cities. Ie drive from your house to a parking lot at the station, and then onto a 180mph train for a 150 mile journey in an hour or so.

Big problem with your plan: it requires the existence of major cities 150 miles apart. That's not so common in this country.

150 miles is not a magic number. Simply one pulled out of the air. The same would be true if the distance was 200 miles, 250 miles or more. Just that the time would be a little longer.

Let's look at one that is real for me tomorrow: I need to be in Los Angeles for a 9:30 meeting. Have a flight out of Oakland at 7:05, arrive Orange County at 8:30 something. That means that I must walk out of my apartment at 5:00 am, catch BART, then AirBART bus to airport. If the Calif. HSR were real, with service San Francisco to LA, I could walk out of my apartment at 5:30 go to Caltrain or the Transbay Terminal (both are potential starting points), catch a 6:00 train and arrive in LA Union Station at 8:30. Now, which is easier?

Don't quite see how you arrived at the need for 275 mph. The example I just gave is for cities almost 400 miles apart comparing the very real door to door time for the flight with the very real, in the reasonable proximate future 220 mph California high speed service.

As to where the upper speed boundary is for steel wheel on steel rail: No one seems to know just yet. That is probably one of the major things the French were trying to determine with their recent high speed trials, but whatever the results are, they are not talking.

 

[nr272]

One of the problems with that is the limited mass transit in far too many of our cities. New York probably has the most complete network of mass rapid transit, which makes taking the train, for me, the only option. You can get pretty much anywhere in downtown Manhattan from Penn Station in half an hour, between subways, busses, and walking. That is probably why New York has the most populated mass-transit commuter systems. There's scores of them: Long Island Rail Road, MetroNorth Railroad, New Jersey Transit Rail, Port Authority Trans-Hudson, Amtrak's Regionals, New York Water Taxi, SeaStreak Ferries, Staten Island Ferry, Hoboken Ferries, and more.

NY has one of the best systems largely because they never dismantled their original system, unlike many other cities that ripped up all of their tracks. But even NY City and surrounding area did loose some of it's tracks, some of which are sorely needed now. Especially in New Jersey where they are looking at rebuilding several lines that were ripped out years ago.

But NYC is also the shining example that mass transit can and does work in this country. And as city after city does start to rebuild their network, in almost all cases people just flock to the rails.

Slightly off topic, but a while ago I ran across a website called "Forgotten New York" (http://www.forgotten-ny.com/). It has loads of information on all things abandon, forgotten, or lost in NY. Be sure to check out the Subway and Trains link at the top of the page.

 

[Chafford1]

As to where the upper speed boundary is for steel wheel on steel rail: No one seems to know just yet. That is probably one of the major things the French were trying to determine with their recent high speed trials, but whatever the results are, they are not talking.

Experience in Europe suggests that we're approaching the speed limit for commercially viable conventional high speed rail now. The Japanese were originally planning for their new 'Fastech' Shinkansens to run at 360kph from 2011 but this has now been reduced to 320kph (199mph). Similarly the Spanish originally envisaged 350kph for their Velaro ICE trains but will run the trains at 300kph (186mph) when the Madrid Barcelona AVE service starts in 2008.

The Japanese (not surprisingly) are taking the next step by replacing the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka with a Maglev train running at speeds of up to 310mph from 2025.

 

[George Harris]

The Japanese were originally planning for their new 'Fastech' Shinkansens to run at 360kph from 2011 but this has now been reduced to 320kph (199mph). Similarly the Spanish originally envisaged 350kph for their Velaro ICE trains but will run the trains at 300kph (186mph) when the Madrid Barcelona AVE service starts in 2008.
The Japanese (not surprisingly) are taking the next step by replacing the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka with a Maglev train running at speeds of up to 310mph from 2025.

This is probably because they are finding that the extra speed translates into almost no savings in run time. To accelerate from a stop to 220 mph (354 km/h) with a train having enough power to make it worthwhile, takes almost 22 miles, and at normal braking rates another 7 miles to stop. The power consumption is enormous.

The reason behind the Japanese maglev between Tokyo and Osaka instead of speeding up the current Shinkansen line is the curves on the existing line and the very large number of trains on it. Remember, this is the original Shinkansen line and is desiged for operating at 200 km/h = 125 mph. Good sense may prevail and a new rail line be built instead.