Bid for 130 corridor bi-level cars is now out

[afigg]

The US DOT posted a press release today announcing "Department of Transportation Opens Bidding for Made-in-America Passenger Rail Cars". So the RFPs for the production of "approximately" 130 corridor bi-level cars are now open for bid submissions from the manufacturers. Excerpts:

WASHINGTON – Rail car manufacturers across the country will have an opportunity to submit bids to produce the first American-made, standardized passenger rail cars, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.
The $551 million Request for Proposals (RFP) to manufacture approximately 130 new bi-level passenger rail cars in America comes from a groundbreaking multi-state effort to jointly purchase standardized rail equipment to be used on Amtrak’s intercity routes in California, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Missouri, and potentially Iowa. The funding is being provided by the Federal Railroad Administration’s High-Speed and Intercity Passenger Rail Program.

"Potentially Iowa"? Interesting jab at the Chicago-Quad Cities (obligated) to Iowa City (stalled in IA politics) project. My take is that the DOT is saying, Iowa, you would say no to running AMERICAN MADE passenger trains to Iowa City?

Selection of the manufacturer will occur in the Fall of 2012. The cars will be delivered starting in 2015.
The effort to purchase standardized equipment is led by the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act Section 305 Next Generation Corridor Equipment Pool Committee, comprised of representatives of interested states, the Federal Railroad Administration, Amtrak, host freight railroad companies, passenger railroad equipment manufacturers and suppliers, and other passenger railroad operators. The Committee has also completed specifications for high-performance diesel locomotives that can travel up to 125 miles-per-hour and for single level passenger rail cars.

 

[Ziv]

More bi-level cars that can go at least 110 mph is a great idea. If they can do 125 mph down the road, that is a phenomenal. 125 is European IC speed, which is pretty amazing to think about when you think that 79 mph is the norm now. More cars will allow more trains per day on several routes which is very, very cool. Or maybe the SSL could be daily, or the CHI, ATL, MIA route could come back. Or even better, that there would be a new route from Seattle to Boise to Salt Lake City to Denver to Oklahoma City to New Orleans to Miami... A guy can dream, can't he?

 

[PRR 60]

More bi-level cars that can go at least 110 mph is a great idea. If they can do 125 mph down the road, that is a phenomenal. 125 is European IC speed, which is pretty amazing to think about when you think that 79 mph is the norm now. More cars will allow more trains per day on several routes which is very, very cool. Or maybe the SSL could be daily, or the CHI, ATL, MIA route could come back. Or even better, that there would be a new route from Seattle to Boise to Salt Lake City to Denver to Oklahoma City to New Orleans to Miami... A guy can dream, can't he?

These will be state-owned cars only for state-supported services. Amtrak will not be able to use them for national network trains.

 

[Ziv]

:blink:

More bi-level cars that can go at least 110 mph is a great idea. If they can do 125 mph down the road, that is a phenomenal. 125 is European IC speed, which is pretty amazing to think about when you think that 79 mph is the norm now. More cars will allow more trains per day on several routes which is very, very cool. Or maybe the SSL could be daily, or the CHI, ATL, MIA route could come back. Or even better, that there would be a new route from Seattle to Boise to Salt Lake City to Denver to Oklahoma City to New Orleans to Miami... A guy can dream, can't he?

These will be state-owned cars only for state-supported services. Amtrak will not be able to use them for national network trains.

Thanks, PRR. You just destroyed my silly little dreams in less than a minute. ;-)

 

[Steve4031]

Hopefully cheesehead nation will see the light and order some additional cars for the Hiawatha service.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Ziv per the Amtrak town hall meeting a while back, this order for bi-levers are for states service. However it will be the basic build block for the next Superliner order.

Translation the frames are built for short haul high turn-over service, but will be used for the next generation of Superliner cars. Four doors vs Two doors. Auto Train Line Opening Doors vs Hand Opening Doors. Coach vs Sleepers. No I don't know any spec the new order will have, but they will have general frame in common, cut out for doors and windows can be moved. (not easy, but it can be done)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

WASHINGTON – Rail car manufacturers across the country will have an opportunity to submit bids to produce the first American-made, standardized passenger rail cars, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.

This does not make sense. How is this the first American standerlized railcar?

 

[jis]

WASHINGTON – Rail car manufacturers across the country will have an opportunity to submit bids to produce the first American-made, standardized passenger rail cars, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.

This does not make sense. How is this the first American standerlized railcar?

They forgot to append the phrase "of the 21st century".

 

[afigg]

WASHINGTON – Rail car manufacturers across the country will have an opportunity to submit bids to produce the first American-made, standardized passenger rail cars, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.

This does not make sense. How is this the first American standerlized railcar?

PR department staff writers. On the other hand, these cars are to be built to the Next Generation passenger car specifications, written by a collaboration of government and industry representatives. When Budd and Pullman were building train cars, they were not building them to a mandated standard design, but their own design. so the "standardized" part may make the first sentence technically correct.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

WASHINGTON – Rail car manufacturers across the country will have an opportunity to submit bids to produce the first American-made, standardized passenger rail cars, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.

This does not make sense. How is this the first American standerlized railcar?

PR department staff writers. On the other hand, these cars are to be built to the Next Generation passenger car specifications, written by a collaboration of government and industry representatives. When Budd and Pullman were building train cars, they were not building them to a mandated standard design, but their own design. so the "standardized" part may make the first sentence technically correct.

Well they all looked standard enough. They should have said what you just said.

 

[Steve4031]

What companies currently making rail cars meet the criteria? Have any companies prepared in advance to make this bid?

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Hopefully cheesehead nation will see the light and order some additional cars for the Hiawatha service.

Steve, what makes me think that WI's is going to have a bitter taste in its mouth about ordering railcars for a while

Nicolas

 

[afigg]

What companies currently making rail cars meet the criteria? Have any companies prepared in advance to make this bid?

Saw a post that stated that Nippon Sharyo USA was going to bid on the corridor bi-level order. They have a new manufacturing plant in Rochelle, IL which adds a political aspect to their bid for Illinois's vote on the bid selection. Found a 2010 press release on the new facility.

The original draft of the bi-level corridor car specification was issued in August, 2010. I'm sure the bidders for the RFP have been busy working on the bid, especially ever since it was announced that some of the FL HSR funds would be re-allocated to provide for an order of 120 cars. With Amtrak stating that it plans to use the bi-level corridor car as the basis (with modifications) for the Superliner I replacements, who ever lands this contract could end up building 400-500 cars. Oh, yes, there will be multiple bidders on this RFP.

For anyone interested in the technical documents, the Next Generation specification documents can be found here. The bi-level car spec is now up to Revision C, 586 pages long, released on April 3. Looks like one of the Rev. C changes is that the pilot cars (the first of each type) will be tested at speeds up to 135 mph to verify the design. The operational max speed will be 125 mph, but the Rev. A I have called for testing up to 130 mph. That is a not a requirement change that would be made without some debate or reason.

BTW, the Next Gen spec committee is now working on the specs for DMUs.

 

[Anderson]

I'm wondering why that would have been done (the top speed test spec switch)...I understand doing a 130 MPH test for a top operating speed of 125 MPH (you want a margin of error there so you don't run into trouble if the speedometer is off by 1-2 MPH), but adding more buffer on top of that seems a bit odd...and I doubt they'd move the top operating speed up to 135 MPH without having a buffer to at least 140 MPH.

In that vein, where would the plans be to run these faster than 125 MPH? I haven't seen any plans to have corridors capable of over 125 with bilevels except with the CAHSR plans. Maybe they're trying to push things as far as possible on the CA corridor ahead of the "real" HSR stuff being complete (since presumably, there will be a 5-10 year period where they have a bunch of fast track but not enough to really make use of the "real" bullet trains.

Also, what's this about Amtrak finally looking into a DMU order? Those will be nice for some of the corridors with shorter trains and/or for new corridors without huge demand right off the bat.

 

[afigg]

I'm wondering why that would have been done (the top speed test spec switch)...I understand doing a 130 MPH test for a top operating speed of 125 MPH (you want a margin of error there so you don't run into trouble if the speedometer is off by 1-2 MPH), but adding more buffer on top of that seems a bit odd...and I doubt they'd move the top operating speed up to 135 MPH without having a buffer to at least 140 MPH.

In that vein, where would the plans be to run these faster than 125 MPH? I haven't seen any plans to have corridors capable of over 125 with bilevels except with the CAHSR plans. Maybe they're trying to push things as far as possible on the CA corridor ahead of the "real" HSR stuff being complete (since presumably, there will be a 5-10 year period where they have a bunch of fast track but not enough to really make use of the "real" bullet trains.

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision. of course, the 125 mph capability is a moot point until there are tracks in the Midwest, CA, or any other place where the bi-levels might be run at 125 mph speeds. In the 30 to 40 year operational lifespan of the new cars, I would expect we will see that.

Also, what's this about Amtrak finally looking into a DMU order? Those will be nice for some of the corridors with shorter trains and/or for new corridors without huge demand right off the bat.

The Next Generation Equipment Pool Committee is working on a spec for DMUs. That does not necessarily mean Amtrak. That may be for the benefit of state transit agencies that want to buy DMUs. A FRA approved, industry agreed to common spec may allow states to combine equipment purchases to save money and support manufacturers in developing the production capability.

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

I'm wondering why that would have been done (the top speed test spec switch)...I understand doing a 130 MPH test for a top operating speed of 125 MPH (you want a margin of error there so you don't run into trouble if the speedometer is off by 1-2 MPH), but adding more buffer on top of that seems a bit odd...

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision.

5 mph might be considered too small a small testing margin with which to build a safety case. SNCF uses 30 kph, for example.

 

[Anderson]

I'm wondering why that would have been done (the top speed test spec switch)...I understand doing a 130 MPH test for a top operating speed of 125 MPH (you want a margin of error there so you don't run into trouble if the speedometer is off by 1-2 MPH), but adding more buffer on top of that seems a bit odd...and I doubt they'd move the top operating speed up to 135 MPH without having a buffer to at least 140 MPH.

In that vein, where would the plans be to run these faster than 125 MPH? I haven't seen any plans to have corridors capable of over 125 with bilevels except with the CAHSR plans. Maybe they're trying to push things as far as possible on the CA corridor ahead of the "real" HSR stuff being complete (since presumably, there will be a 5-10 year period where they have a bunch of fast track but not enough to really make use of the "real" bullet trains.

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision. of course, the 125 mph capability is a moot point until there are tracks in the Midwest, CA, or any other place where the bi-levels might be run at 125 mph speeds. In the 30 to 40 year operational lifespan of the new cars, I would expect we will see that.

Also, what's this about Amtrak finally looking into a DMU order? Those will be nice for some of the corridors with shorter trains and/or for new corridors without huge demand right off the bat.

The Next Generation Equipment Pool Committee is working on a spec for DMUs. That does not necessarily mean Amtrak. That may be for the benefit of state transit agencies that want to buy DMUs. A FRA approved, industry agreed to common spec may allow states to combine equipment purchases to save money and support manufacturers in developing the production capability.

Ahh, ok. That actually makes sense...though I do wish that Amtrak would, if a big order were placed, consider trying to buy a set of them for some of the smaller corridor trains (and/or to handle some of the "odd hour" services on the NEC); I'm thinking the Hoosier State as a good example here (if it weren't on the chopping block); a DMU set might also make sense for something like the TDX.

Actually, a related question: How much cheaper are DMUs (or EMUs) to operate versus a small train (2-4 revenue cars) with an engine?

 

[jis]

I think DMU won't work for Hoosier State because one of the important functions performed by that train is being a Hospital Train for ferrying equipment to and fro between Chicago and Beech Grove. But there are other corridors where they could work well, e.g. New Haven - Springfield.

 

[NE933]

Steve, what makes me think that WI's is going to have a bitter taste in its mouth about ordering railcars for a while

Nicolas

Even worse, me thinks that Talgo or any other railcar builder will take a U.S. intercity rail carrier seriously about committing to ordering passenger rolling stock, especially after a period spanning two decades with zilch, except for Acela, which was laden with design changes/flaws/delays? Does anyone trust Bombardier with building Superliners, and will they trust Amtrak in return? Or: will both of them say "Screw the past, our common enemies made that problem, so let's just do this order and do it from a clean blackboard"?

 

[Steve4031]

I would suspect that Talgo will be done with all states but washington and Oregon.

 

[jis]

Even worse, me thinks that Talgo or any other railcar builder will take a U.S. intercity rail carrier seriously about committing to ordering passenger rolling stock, especially after a period spanning two decades with zilch, except for Acela, which was laden with design changes/flaws/delays? Does anyone trust Bombardier with building Superliners, and will they trust Amtrak in return? Will both of them say "Screw the past, our common enemies made that problem, so let's just do this order and do it from a clean blackboard"?

In the alleged two decades with no orders, a slew of California Cars were delivered by Alstom. Hundreds of bi-level commuter cars were delivered to various commuter agencies. In addition many hundreds of MLVs were delivered by Bombardier to NJT and AMT and continue to be delivered to NJT and MARC. There are the huge orders of M-7s and M-8s that were and are being delivered to MNRR and LIRR by Bombardier and Kawasaki. And we shall not even bother mentioning the hundreds of subway cars that have been delivered to MTA in New York.

Afterall Bombardier delivered the Super IIs, so there is no reason not to trust them to deliver more of them. Alternatively Alstom would equally well deliver new bi-levels. Afterall the Surfliners seem to be doing fine. Typically companies do not hold a grudge if they see an opportunity to make a buck or two, so yes they will gladly say "Screw the past" and move onto the next order. It is only in discussions here that we will build exciting stories about grudges held by companies against each other.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Corporations are in business to make money, not carry on school yard grudges.

 

[RailRide]

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision. of course, the 125 mph capability is a moot point until there are tracks in the Midwest, CA, or any other place where the bi-levels might be run at 125 mph speeds. In the 30 to 40 year operational lifespan of the new cars, I would expect we will see that.

Just out of curiosity, where would such railcars be tested at such speeds? The AAR test facility comes to mind, but even then, what would you pull them with?

---PCJ

 

[George Harris]

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision. of course, the 125 mph capability is a moot point until there are tracks in the Midwest, CA, or any other place where the bi-levels might be run at 125 mph speeds. In the 30 to 40 year operational lifespan of the new cars, I would expect we will see that.

Just out of curiosity, where would such railcars be tested at such speeds? The AAR test facility comes to mind, but even then, what would you pull them with?

---PCJ

The current RPF for diesels also says 125 mph. Sounds like they will be tested together.

 

[jis]

To be clear, the maximum revenue operating speed for the Next Gen corridor bi-levels is 125 mph. The 135 mph is only for the testing of the first units, probably to verify stability and safe operation in case of a brief overspeed operation. Just a larger test margin than the 130 mph that was specified in the earlier revision. of course, the 125 mph capability is a moot point until there are tracks in the Midwest, CA, or any other place where the bi-levels might be run at 125 mph speeds. In the 30 to 40 year operational lifespan of the new cars, I would expect we will see that.

Just out of curiosity, where would such railcars be tested at such speeds? The AAR test facility comes to mind, but even then, what would you pull them with?

Well they will be testing those Siemens ACS64s there in short order And there are those ALP45-DPs around too. Those were recently tested at 125mph in Pueblo. The NJT MLVs will go through 125mph certification soon too. Pueblo does have a long electrified (25kV and 12kV, both 60Hz and 25Hz) test track. They could also borrow an ALP46A from NJT for a few weeks. No shortage of 125/135mph capable engines.