Breathtaking Thanksgiving prices on the NEC

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Ispolkom

Engineer
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
3,060
Location
St. Paul, Minn.
I well understand that the day before Thanksgiving is Amtrak's biggest travel day, but I wasn't expecting high-bucket prices in February. Providence to Washington is $184 for a regional on November 27, while the same ticket is $67 a week earlier or later. Good for Amtrak if they can fill the train up at that price, but Mrs. Ispolkom and I were already staying at a hotel near the airport, so we'll fly to DCA for $112 each on US Airways. How are the oysters at the Providence Oyster Bar at PVD?

Other tickets don't seem as dear. St. Paul to Minot, for instance, is in low bucket for coach and sleepers on 11/27, though it's already bumped higher for Christmas trains.
 
I don't eat oysters (allergic), but my understanding is that the PVD Oyster Bar is pretty good. It is adjacent to Providence Prime which I really like! The prices are very, very reasonable for the quality of the food.

$184 actually seems pretty reasonable. For example, try to travel on a regional this coming Sunday from BOS - PHL and you are looking at $176 for some trains. $184 isn't much more than that and you are traveling for what, another two hours? I was just looking at some Sundays in May so I can do a weekend trip to PHL and was seeing similar prices.

What brings you to our fair city? Let me know if you need any recommendations for anything.
 
I will add that the last time I had to go to DC, I flew DCA - PVD for $99 each way. I couldn't justify the high cost of the train, either, that time.
 
Amtrak knows when to raise buckets.. Thanksgiving week the buckets are raised from what I have looked at. So low bucket could be PVD-WAS $125. That's just what I've seen, not saying that's true but it's a guess.
 
Looks like Amtrak's just trying to stay above airfares again. They know they can fill up the trains anyway.

I'm just kidding.
 
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Buckets - demand pricing - yeah we all got to deal with it.

Oysters -- !! Good fresh oysters -- Tell me where and I might even pay high-bucket. Maybe even for really good razor clams.

You so privileged lucky persons who have access to live oysters -- us here mid-continent crave ! ! !

good fresh oysters.

Please - anytime any of you know a good fresh oyster place -- yeah not this board's main thing -- but -- quiero --

Any Amtrak station where there's good fresh oysters I WILL VISIT . Thank you all .
 
Buckets - demand pricing - yeah we all got to deal with it.
Oysters -- !! Good fresh oysters -- Tell me where and I might even pay high-bucket. Maybe even for really good razor clams.

You so privileged lucky persons who have access to live oysters -- us here mid-continent crave ! ! !

good fresh oysters.

Please - anytime any of you know a good fresh oyster place -- yeah not this board's main thing -- but -- quiero --

Any Amtrak station where there's good fresh oysters I WILL VISIT . Thank you all
Would you like some fries with your oysters? :p

Here are a few I like that are either very near, or are in train stations:

Near ALX - Hank's Oyster Bar

Near RVM - Rappahannock

Near WAS - Johnny's Half Shell

IN GCT - Grand Central Oyster Bar
 
And don't forget Tracks in NYP, in the LIRR concourse right outside the big board and 7th Avenue IRT (1/2/3 trains).

I wonder if, like with some LDs, the buckets were raised in advance to be lowered later (since folks expect Thanksgiving to be expensive). I usually book in the summer for Thanksgiving and don't recall it being so high.
 
At the very least, Amtrak zaps the "special" bucket (the $67 one) for that week...but I think they're opening on high bucket or close to it, since they know they can fill seats at that price when the time comes on the NEC.

On the LD trains, coach doesn't fill up nearly as often as sleepers do on a lot of runs...but they're probably low on that date since an 11/27 departure is an 11/28 arrival, and trains arriving on Christmas and Thanksgiving tend to run lower bucket (check 11/28 on the NEC...fewer trains, likely lower buckets).
 
Amtrak knows when to raise buckets.. Thanksgiving week the buckets are raised from what I have looked at. So low bucket could be PVD-WAS $125. That's just what I've seen, not saying that's true but it's a guess.
In terms of revenue management it can be said that Amtrak knows when to raise buckets but there is a downside. The occasional Amtrak customer will get the impression that its a gouge operation and only take the train very occasionally. I do not believe that you will attract steady rail passengers by gouging them during periods of peak demand. Customers find gouging objectionable.
 
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At the very least, Amtrak zaps the "special" bucket (the $67 one) for that week...but I think they're opening on high bucket or close to it, since they know they can fill seats at that price when the time comes on the NEC.
The reason I was shocked at the $184 price was my memory (perhaps inaccurate) that I had checked the fare a month or two ago and then it was around $67. My surprise at the new higher price was combined with self-recrimination at not purchasing the tickets when they were one-third their present cost.

At least I can understand what Amtrak is doing with their high prices. Air ticket costs are far more opaque. My last two purchases were about the same price: $110-112, but one was PVD-DCA, while the other was MSP-SAN.
 
Amtrak knows when to raise buckets.. Thanksgiving week the buckets are raised from what I have looked at. So low bucket could be PVD-WAS $125. That's just what I've seen, not saying that's true but it's a guess.
In terms of revenue management it can be said that Amtrak knows when to raise buckets but there is a downside. The occasional Amtrak customer will get the impression that its a gouge operation and only take the train very occasionally. I do not believe that you will attract steady rail passengers by gouging them during periods of peak demand. Customers find gouging objectionable.
Well, this is also a case of "it could be worse": At least Amtrak is generally locked to a 100% price range ("specials" notwithstanding). Airlines are under no such restriction.
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.

I have flown domestic in the last three years on Delta, American, United, US Airways, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue, Virgin America, Alaska Airlines, Allegiant Air.. all in economy/coach, and frankly I can't figure out for the life of me what in the United States is "low cost carrier" and what is "full service". In coach, they are all the same. Allegiant is the only one that had some difference- they don't give even a glass of water free but then I had paid 1/3rd of what other airlines were charging on that route, so can't complain. The differences are, some airlines have in-seat TV screens, some don't but that's again very aircraft type specific. Apart from that, its all same- Boeing 737 or A320, 3-3 seating, in-flight service includes one (or at max two) rounds of soft drinks/coffee. The only truly "different" experience was when once United put its international configured Boeing 777 on IAD-SFO flight. That was the BEST domestic flight ever.. complimentary blankets, pillows, headphones, in-seat TV with a huge variety of US and international movies, TV shows and music, and of course the nice roomy feel of being in a 777 :)
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.

I have flown domestic in the last three years on Delta, American, United, US Airways, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue, Virgin America, Alaska Airlines, Allegiant Air.. all in economy/coach, and frankly I can't figure out for the life of me what in the United States is "low cost carrier" and what is "full service". In coach, they are all the same. Allegiant is the only one that had some difference- they don't give even a glass of water free but then I had paid 1/3rd of what other airlines were charging on that route, so can't complain. The differences are, some airlines have in-seat TV screens, some don't but that's again very aircraft type specific. Apart from that, its all same- Boeing 737 or A320, 3-3 seating, in-flight service includes one (or at max two) rounds of soft drinks/coffee. The only truly "different" experience was when once United put its international configured Boeing 777 on IAD-SFO flight. That was the BEST domestic flight ever.. complimentary blankets, pillows, headphones, in-seat TV with a huge variety of US and international movies, TV shows and music, and of course the nice roomy feel of being in a 777 :)
Yeah, that's why I said there's no difference between most flights. Actually the "full service" airlines don't offer full service at all (no food, small seats), they're just as bad as the low-cost carriers.
 
Last month I did this trip, Amtrak was the most expensive per mile and most memorable leg and that was at the super cheep winter sale price:

Delta Air Lines JFK-DEN $103.90 (6¢ per mile) - in all my travels at least last year when I started keeping track was cheapest Amtrak leg was 8¢ per mile

Amtrak California Zephyr DEN-SLC $60 (11¢ per mile)

JetBlue Airways SLC-JFK $152.80 (8¢)
 
Last month I did this trip, Amtrak was the most expensive per mile and most memorable leg and that was at the super cheep winter sale price:Delta Air Lines JFK-DEN $103.90 (6¢ per mile) - in all my travels at least last year when I started keeping track was cheapest Amtrak leg was 8¢ per mile

Amtrak California Zephyr DEN-SLC $60 (11¢ per mile)

JetBlue Airways SLC-JFK $152.80 (8¢)
Wow, if you were going overnight and got a Sleeper the cost-per-mile would have been ridiculous.
 
Last month I did this trip, Amtrak was the most expensive per mile and most memorable leg and that was at the super cheep winter sale price:Delta Air Lines JFK-DEN $103.90 (6¢ per mile) - in all my travels at least last year when I started keeping track was cheapest Amtrak leg was 8¢ per mile

Amtrak California Zephyr DEN-SLC $60 (11¢ per mile)

JetBlue Airways SLC-JFK $152.80 (8¢)
The argument of value per dollar comes to mind here. Sure, airlines *might* be less per $0.01 spent (not really when you equate the true cost as an American tax payer, which is a mirage of many men behind many curtains,) but their only real value is the time in travel between point A and B. If time is not so preciously and vastly hoarded, I still think other forms of transit win hands-down on the airline fleecing scheme.
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.

I have flown domestic in the last three years on Delta, American, United, US Airways, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue, Virgin America, Alaska Airlines, Allegiant Air.. all in economy/coach, and frankly I can't figure out for the life of me what in the United States is "low cost carrier" and what is "full service". In coach, they are all the same. Allegiant is the only one that had some difference- they don't give even a glass of water free but then I had paid 1/3rd of what other airlines were charging on that route, so can't complain. The differences are, some airlines have in-seat TV screens, some don't but that's again very aircraft type specific. Apart from that, its all same- Boeing 737 or A320, 3-3 seating, in-flight service includes one (or at max two) rounds of soft drinks/coffee. The only truly "different" experience was when once United put its international configured Boeing 777 on IAD-SFO flight. That was the BEST domestic flight ever.. complimentary blankets, pillows, headphones, in-seat TV with a huge variety of US and international movies, TV shows and music, and of course the nice roomy feel of being in a 777 :)
The full service is the ability to go from pretty much anywhere to pretty much anywhere else. I can go from my local hillbilly airport all the way to the middle of Africa by buying a single ticket on a full service carrier.

The low cost refers to how the airline is operated, and not how much the passenger pays. They have limited networks. While I can call Delta and go anywhere, with Southwest I can only go to a limited number of places.
 
Last month I did this trip, Amtrak was the most expensive per mile and most memorable leg and that was at the super cheep winter sale price:Delta Air Lines JFK-DEN $103.90 (6¢ per mile) - in all my travels at least last year when I started keeping track was cheapest Amtrak leg was 8¢ per mile

Amtrak California Zephyr DEN-SLC $60 (11¢ per mile)

JetBlue Airways SLC-JFK $152.80 (8¢)
The argument of value per dollar comes to mind here. Sure, airlines *might* be less per $0.01 spent (not really when you equate the true cost as an American tax payer, which is a mirage of many men behind many curtains,) but their only real value is the time in travel between point A and B. If time is not so preciously and vastly hoarded, I still think other forms of transit win hands-down on the airline fleecing scheme.
True, Amtrak travel is more relaxing. But, for much of the country, it's simply not a viable option. Especially when you're considering long-distance trips and you have to spend time at the destination. For example, to get from MSP to BOI (a trip I'm actually taking this summer,) it costs $265 each way and takes 43 hours out, 47 hours back (including 8-10 hours on a bus each way, and an overnight transfer on the way out and an 11-hour transfer ending at 1:30 AM on the way back.) On Southwest, it's $207 each way and takes 5 hours out, 6 hours back, with both transfers at reasonable hours. Guess which one I'm taking?

Amtrak's advantage is in shorter routes (or shorter trips). They usually wind up being no more than the airlines (especially after fees) and can be close to as fast, if not faster, than flying when considering time spent in security at the airport. But trains only have an advantage on long-distance routers when they are cheaper than equivalent flights, or getting to smaller towns that aren't well-served by the airlines. (Even then, it may make sense to fly to the larger airport and take the train from there.)

Plus, while it may be more expensive, when considering the respective subsidies, to fly, the cost to fly is a "sunk cost" for the consumer. The only part I care about is the additional out of pocket cost for traveling.

While you may not care about speed, many people do. They don't want to spend their vacation days taking a train out to where they want to wind up, especially if their main purpose is to be at the destination. The journey on the airlines may not be as enjoyable as it is on Amtrak, but many Americans just want the journey to be done ASAP. Trains can't offer that on longer routes.

Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.

I have flown domestic in the last three years on Delta, American, United, US Airways, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue, Virgin America, Alaska Airlines, Allegiant Air.. all in economy/coach, and frankly I can't figure out for the life of me what in the United States is "low cost carrier" and what is "full service". In coach, they are all the same. Allegiant is the only one that had some difference- they don't give even a glass of water free but then I had paid 1/3rd of what other airlines were charging on that route, so can't complain. The differences are, some airlines have in-seat TV screens, some don't but that's again very aircraft type specific. Apart from that, its all same- Boeing 737 or A320, 3-3 seating, in-flight service includes one (or at max two) rounds of soft drinks/coffee. The only truly "different" experience was when once United put its international configured Boeing 777 on IAD-SFO flight. That was the BEST domestic flight ever.. complimentary blankets, pillows, headphones, in-seat TV with a huge variety of US and international movies, TV shows and music, and of course the nice roomy feel of being in a 777 :)
The full service is the ability to go from pretty much anywhere to pretty much anywhere else. I can go from my local hillbilly airport all the way to the middle of Africa by buying a single ticket on a full service carrier.

The low cost refers to how the airline is operated, and not how much the passenger pays. They have limited networks. While I can call Delta and go anywhere, with Southwest I can only go to a limited number of places.
However, even some of the "low-cost" carriers have extensive networks now. For example, Southwest's to the point now where you can get from pretty much any mid-sized (or larger) metropolitan area to another. They're not going to fly into some of the smaller airports, but usually those are ones that only have subsidized flights. (The American West is a notable counterexample to that, but I can't help but think they want to rectify that somewhat.) That's why they're so popular.

Of course, if you need to fly to or from a smaller airport, or you need to fly internationally, the "full-service" carriers are your best bet. (Though I would rather see solid train service serving those communities that have subsidized air travel, but that's a rant for another thread.)
 
Airlines can do awful things on non-ecompetitive routes where there is no real competition. OTOH on the major trunks the airlines have very little pricing freedom unless they can carry a whole bunch along. Repeatedly attempts to raise prices are thwarted because a Southwest or a JetBlue does not tag along. But the general better management of inventory across the industry is here to stay so the airlines these days have more upward pricing mobility than they had in the past. But still it has to be a collective act. A single airline can go its own way only at its own peril.
That's why there's really no difference between domestic flights now. All airlines, low-cost or not, actually have the same prices, similar equipment, similar seats, similar service, etc. The main factor in what pax choose is often FF points.

I have flown domestic in the last three years on Delta, American, United, US Airways, Southwest, Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue, Virgin America, Alaska Airlines, Allegiant Air.. all in economy/coach, and frankly I can't figure out for the life of me what in the United States is "low cost carrier" and what is "full service". In coach, they are all the same. Allegiant is the only one that had some difference- they don't give even a glass of water free but then I had paid 1/3rd of what other airlines were charging on that route, so can't complain. The differences are, some airlines have in-seat TV screens, some don't but that's again very aircraft type specific. Apart from that, its all same- Boeing 737 or A320, 3-3 seating, in-flight service includes one (or at max two) rounds of soft drinks/coffee. The only truly "different" experience was when once United put its international configured Boeing 777 on IAD-SFO flight. That was the BEST domestic flight ever.. complimentary blankets, pillows, headphones, in-seat TV with a huge variety of US and international movies, TV shows and music, and of course the nice roomy feel of being in a 777 :)
The full service is the ability to go from pretty much anywhere to pretty much anywhere else. I can go from my local hillbilly airport all the way to the middle of Africa by buying a single ticket on a full service carrier.

The low cost refers to how the airline is operated, and not how much the passenger pays. They have limited networks. While I can call Delta and go anywhere, with Southwest I can only go to a limited number of places.
Though this isn't even true with Delta either, there have been no less than 3 destinations I've tried going to this year and Delta flies to none of them, not even as a code-share!

Kind of off topic, but nevertheless I thought it was interesting.. before US Airways and American Delta was the biggest airline in the world, seems crazy that there's still places you just can't get to.
 
True, Amtrak travel is more relaxing. But, for much of the country, it's simply not a viable option. Especially when you're considering long-distance trips and you have to spend time at the destination. For example, to get from MSP to BOI (a trip I'm actually taking this summer,) it costs $265 each way and takes 43 hours out, 47 hours back (including 8-10 hours on a bus each way, and an overnight transfer on the way out and an 11-hour transfer ending at 1:30 AM on the way back.) On Southwest, it's $207 each way and takes 5 hours out, 6 hours back, with both transfers at reasonable hours. Guess which one I'm taking?
Amtrak's advantage is in shorter routes (or shorter trips). They usually wind up being no more than the airlines (especially after fees) and can be close to as fast, if not faster, than flying when considering time spent in security at the airport. But trains only have an advantage on long-distance routers when they are cheaper than equivalent flights, or getting to smaller towns that aren't well-served by the airlines. (Even then, it may make sense to fly to the larger airport and take the train from there.)

Plus, while it may be more expensive, when considering the respective subsidies, to fly, the cost to fly is a "sunk cost" for the consumer. The only part I care about is the additional out of pocket cost for traveling.

While you may not care about speed, many people do. They don't want to spend their vacation days taking a train out to where they want to wind up, especially if their main purpose is to be at the destination. The journey on the airlines may not be as enjoyable as it is on Amtrak, but many Americans just want the journey to be done ASAP. Trains can't offer that on longer routes.
Yup, many people do value time over experience.

Then again, there are plenty of folks out there right now who aren't flying. And those people would rather spend a couple days getting to their destination, than not go at all. Don't assume that your value decision matrix on time versus utility is everone's.
 
True, Amtrak travel is more relaxing. But, for much of the country, it's simply not a viable option. Especially when you're considering long-distance trips and you have to spend time at the destination. For example, to get from MSP to BOI (a trip I'm actually taking this summer,) it costs $265 each way and takes 43 hours out, 47 hours back (including 8-10 hours on a bus each way, and an overnight transfer on the way out and an 11-hour transfer ending at 1:30 AM on the way back.) On Southwest, it's $207 each way and takes 5 hours out, 6 hours back, with both transfers at reasonable hours. Guess which one I'm taking?

Amtrak's advantage is in shorter routes (or shorter trips). They usually wind up being no more than the airlines (especially after fees) and can be close to as fast, if not faster, than flying when considering time spent in security at the airport. But trains only have an advantage on long-distance routers when they are cheaper than equivalent flights, or getting to smaller towns that aren't well-served by the airlines. (Even then, it may make sense to fly to the larger airport and take the train from there.)

Plus, while it may be more expensive, when considering the respective subsidies, to fly, the cost to fly is a "sunk cost" for the consumer. The only part I care about is the additional out of pocket cost for traveling.

While you may not care about speed, many people do. They don't want to spend their vacation days taking a train out to where they want to wind up, especially if their main purpose is to be at the destination. The journey on the airlines may not be as enjoyable as it is on Amtrak, but many Americans just want the journey to be done ASAP. Trains can't offer that on longer routes.
Yup, many people do value time over experience.

Then again, there are plenty of folks out there right now who aren't flying. And those people would rather spend a couple days getting to their destination, than not go at all. Don't assume that your value decision matrix on time versus utility is everone's.
Certainly. I understand that there are some people aren't flying currently. The question is, why aren't they flying? Is it for some reason that Amtrak would cater to (less security detail, afraid of flying, and sometimes price)? Or is it something else?

Frankly, I don't see a large "transportation utility" market for Amtrak on long trips between large city centers. People who are truly price-conscious will probably go with Greyhound. There are some people who travel Amtrak for religious reasons, but Amtrak will not be competitive for most people going from, say, MSP to Seattle or Portland. Amtrak's niche is in the short runs and in markets where the airlines don't exist or are very expensive. For example, the Empire Builder is gaining large amounts of ridership in Williston, where there isn't a lot of air travel (and the options available are expensive.) That's Amtrak's main market on long-distance routes, at least from a true "transportation utility" standpoint. (This, of course, excludes those who travel the train where the train is part of the vacation. But I'm considering those who, like in my example I'm using, see the destination as more important than the journey on a specific trip. There's also much less support for taxpayer subsidies for what appears to be a "cruise on rails" than a true "transportation alternative.")

I do think long distance routes should stay and be expanded. But it's because they serve many communities that aren't served otherwise, not because I think we need another alternative for travel from Chicago to Portland or San Francisco. Plane travel is a much more practical solution there.
 
Certainly. I understand that there are some people aren't flying currently. The question is, why aren't they flying? Is it for some reason that Amtrak would cater to (less security detail, afraid of flying, and sometimes price)? Or is it something else?
Less security theater, less groping, less random thuggery. There's a *lot* of people who detest the TSA gauntlet at the airports. A *lot*.

Regarding Thanksgiving, Amtrak really might as well raise prices. If Amtrak had lots of rolling stock, it would instead keep prices constant and lay on extra cars. But Amtrak doesn't have extra rolling stock. Perhaps if VIA continues its current path to utter destruction, Amtrak can start borrowing VIA cars on a regular basis for Thanksgiving and alleviate the crush somewhat.
 
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