Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2024 H1

[west point]

How many train sets are required for normal daily operation? If the 10 train cars to be delivered this year are assigned to the train sets that are selling out how would they be allocated. 2 each to 5 train sets, Maybe 4 sets to allow for 2 to fill in for necessary maintenance. It will be getting close for COT&S for BL's first train sets.

Or assign 3 cars to each of 3 train sets with one as a spare. Or 8 or 9 cars for one each to 8 or 9 train sets??? Number daily train sets certainly will denote how the 10 will be allocated.

 

[cirdan]

How many train sets are required for normal daily operation? If the 10 train cars to be delivered this year are assigned to the train sets that are selling out how would they be allocated. 2 each to 5 train sets, Maybe 4 sets to allow for 2 to fill in for necessary maintenance. It will be getting close for COT&S for BL's first train sets.

Or assign 3 cars to each of 3 train sets with one as a spare. Or 8 or 9 cars for one each to 8 or 9 train sets??? Number daily train sets certainly will denote how the 10 will be allocated.

OTOH running train sets of different lengths could be a dispatching nightmare. The whole point of having a fleet of identical trains is that you can change equipment around flexibly. Imagine if a four car set needs to be dispatched onto a service for which a six car was earmarked, and all those passengers with reserved seats are going to have to be informed they cannot board but that there might be another train in an hour.

 

[VentureForth]

Has Brightline looked at turning maybe a 1/3rd or 1/2 of the trains out of Miami at WPB rather than taking them all the way to MCO? Maybe MCO every two hours with more runs in the Metro corridor.

 

[cirdan]

It may be time for Brightline to think in terms of s separate South Florida only service in the near future.

Isn't this essentially the commuter overlay service that we hear of from time to time?

Rumors emanating from the bowels of Brightline apparently:

• The 30 cars ordered delivery dates have been moved up as follows:
  • 10 by Summer '24
  • 10 by Dec '24 - Jan '25
  • 10 through 2025

Has it been specified what the split between Smart and Premium will be for the new cars?

The question of the bistro cars is trickier - I can see the case for them - at some point you're replacing more employees going through selling snacks (at what point do you sort-of need extra employees doing that?), and the ability to sell hot food (even just stuff thrown in a microwave) would definitely be a plus for the customer experience on longer trips. On the other hand, that's also 64 revenue seats that they could probably use.

It wouldn't have to be a sit-down bistro. Just having a counter would be enable them to offer a broader range of meal and beverage options than a trolley can provide. The rest of the car could then be regular seating.

 

[jis]

Has Brightline looked at turning maybe a 1/3rd or 1/2 of the trains out of Miami at WPB rather than taking them all the way to MCO? Maybe MCO every two hours with more runs in the Metro corridor.

Their approach is to try to get as much traffic to MCO since the profit margin is on that segment not in the WPB segment. Of late they are restricting the number of seats released for MIA - WPB segment to keep more seats open for longer distance customers, which actually makes perfect sense given their eventual business goals. They will do short turns when they get additional train sets I suppose.

Maybe instead, Tri-Rail could run some trains on the FEC, and leave Brightline to serve longer distance traveler's?

Isn't this essentially the commuter overlay service that we hear of from time to time?

The Commuter overlay service is the under development Tri-Rail Northeast Corridor Service which will share the FECR route with Brightline. This is currently in the works only in Miami-Dade County (upto Aventura) eventually to be extended to Broward County (Fort Lauderdale) and in some distant future to Palm Beach County too I suppose. It will be slow stopping at many new little non-Brightline stations (in addition to the Brightline ones) on the way taking about the same time as TriRail does today on the parallel SFRTA (TriRail) line. For full deployment it involves building a third track and additional passing sidings and such.

The other TriRail operation on FECR that has been talked about is the extension from WPB to Jupiter. Apparently the initial extension to Jupiter is going to be from WPB of the current TriRail service using the Northwood Connection between SFRTA and FECR between West Palm Beach and Mangonia Park stations.

The third TriRail extension talked about recently is from Mangonia Park to the Veterans Hospital on CSX and does not involve FECR or Brightline.

All additional traffic on FECR iron is actually primarily governed by what the Florida Dispatching Company would allow, as the jointly owned operating company of the FECR and Brightline trackage in Florida.

 

[cirdan]

All additional traffic on FECR iron is actually primarily governed by what the Florida Dispatching Company would allow, as the jointly owned operating company of the FECR and Brightline trackage in Florida.

I can imagine that capacity at Miami Central may become an issue at some point, with at least two distinct commuter services sharing two low-level platforms.

 

[jis]

I can imagine that capacity at Miami Central may become an issue at some point, with at least two distinct commuter services sharing two low-level platforms.

I don't think they are really talking of more than 4-6 tph for their two platform tracks anyway. If a bit more is needed, I think the middle platform track can be setup to be used with low platform on the west side and high platform on the east side too.. Adding another platform track at least for partial use in the mix. So I think it will be quite a while before they will have to worry about that. At that point they could build out the south east quadrant of Iris and send some trains to MIC.

I know at least I get visions of train every 2 minutes when people talk of Commuter service (or Suburban EMU service as known in India). But this is the US of A, it is quite unusual to get beyond 10tph on any line for anything. Only some lines in the Northeast get there.

Right now Miami Central has 2tph on the Brightline side and 2tph on the TriRail side (that too counting an arrival and a departure as two trains since it is a terminal station), which IMHO is a horrendous under utilization of the massive infrastructure.

 

[Qapla]

While some of those who live in south Florida might want more commuter service - we have to keep in mind that Brightline has in mind being a preferred connection to Florida's larger cities. Miami to Orlando is only he start. After Tampa they plan on adding Jacksonville ... I would think these goals would be more in mind to them than adding additional commuter service for the Miami area.

 

[Anderson]

How many train sets are required for normal daily operation? If the 10 train cars to be delivered this year are assigned to the train sets that are selling out how would they be allocated. 2 each to 5 train sets, Maybe 4 sets to allow for 2 to fill in for necessary maintenance. It will be getting close for COT&S for BL's first train sets.

Or assign 3 cars to each of 3 train sets with one as a spare. Or 8 or 9 cars for one each to 8 or 9 train sets??? Number daily train sets certainly will denote how the 10 will be allocated.

So, about 9 sets are needed. You absolutely need 8 for the current schedule (3:25-3:30 for travel plus an apparent 30-ish minute allowance for turning), but this promptly effectively goes to 9 if there are any slow orders whatsoever (I think they effectively needed 9 to run the full schedule before they got the runtime down to where it is now). The 10th set is a spare (which IIRC is available for charter use) or shop cover (both for inspection cycles and for when a set has to go in because some idiot ignored the crossing gates).

While some of those who live in south Florida might want more commuter service - we have to keep in mind that Brightline has in mind being a preferred connection to Florida's larger cities. Miami to Orlando is only he start. After Tampa they plan on adding Jacksonville ... I would think these goals would be more in mind to them than adding additional commuter service for the Miami area.

I mean, they got MIA-WPB into the black briefly last year and it is obvious that the market will support quite substantial fares. So I think I'd want to build that market, if not as a standalone then as a major supplement to the overall picture.

And of course, Brightline's official filings tend to project something like 3.7m pax/yr within South Florida on Brightline [the 2022/23 numbers], so there's that. Over 10k/day on weekdays (their effective projection) is quite close to Tri-Rail's current ridership (14k-ish). So to say that Brightline is not doing commuter business or looking at SF to augment ridership/revenue in a major way is just not true.

[Edit: Of course, those same docs also imply them having a lot of equipment that not only hasn't been delivered but hasn't even been ordered, so there /is/ that.]

 

[bonzoesc]

Right now Miami Central has 2tph on the Brightline side and 2tph on the TriRail side (that too counting an arrival and a departure as two trains since it is a terminal station), which IMHO is a horrendous under utilization of the massive infrastructure.

I assume they overbuilt it for a number of intersecting reasons, low interest rates, extremely expensive and well placed real estate that would benefit from transit capacity, and expected leases on commercial space (some retail, many offices) that would make future upgrades disproportionately expensive.

 

[Qapla]

to say that Brightline is not doing commuter business or looking at SF to augment ridership/revenue in a major way is just not true.

It's not that they aren't providing some commuter service and profiting from it - it is that their long-term goal is to be statewide and future expansion is going to Tampa, then Jacksonville. So, while they may "augment" with the commuter service they are providing, I would not expect them to put much emphasis on seriously increasing that portion of their business to a full-fledged commuter service. Your expectations may be different.

 

[west point]

The FLL bridge needing to be built is another consideration for more commuter trains. IMO a third track may be needed from Palm Beach to MIA<

 

[jis]

I assume they overbuilt it for a number of intersecting reasons, low interest rates, extremely expensive and well placed real estate that would benefit from transit capacity, and expected leases on commercial space (some retail, many offices) that would make future upgrades disproportionately expensive.

Oh I am absolutely fine with the way it was built. Currently it is just an introductory service situation. I expect the demand on it to outgrow its size within ten years, specially if a full short turn Brightline operation and a robust Northeast Corridor TriRail service develops in that timeframe.

 

[Anderson]

It's not that they aren't providing some commuter service and profiting from it - it is that their long-term goal is to be statewide and future expansion is going to Tampa, then Jacksonville. So, while they may "augment" with the commuter service they are providing, I would not expect them to put much emphasis on seriously increasing that portion of their business to a full-fledged commuter service. Your expectations may be different.

Mine are different insofar as they got "stuck" building a commuter market down there for a few years, building up a non-trivial passholder base.

To be fair, I think they mismanaged the equipment order timing (as I've said repeatedly, even the close-in portions of their ridership projections don't align with known/projected equipment deliveries...but I wouldn't be surprised if the pandemic played a role in blowing plans, either) and that's forcing their hand in ways they'd rather it didn't.

 

[bonzoesc]

I dunno about the customer service part. I've seen a number complaints about Brightline customer service being hard to reach and unhelpful. They seem to be following the "do everything online" model.

Just put myself in a situation where I want this (booked a premium round trip for May, received Uber vouchers, realized I picked May instead of April, and now I want to see if I can get them reissued) so let's see how long it takes and if I get what I want.

 

[Anderson]

Just put myself in a situation where I want this (booked a premium round trip for May, received Uber vouchers, realized I picked May instead of April, and now I want to see if I can get them reissued) so let's see how long it takes and if I get what I want.

I'd say half an hour of wait time per call.

 

[bonzoesc]

I'd say half an hour of wait time per call.

I submitted the ticket online right before posting that because as a millennial I would rather lose blood than use the phone.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

I submitted the ticket online right before posting that because as a millennial I would rather lose blood than use the phone.

I am a boomer and feel exactly the same

 

[cirdan]

To be fair, I think they mismanaged the equipment order timing (as I've said repeatedly, even the close-in portions of their ridership projections don't align with known/projected equipment deliveries...but I wouldn't be surprised if the pandemic played a role in blowing plans, either) and that's forcing their hand in ways they'd rather it didn't.

Just because Brightline, or their parent company, have very deep pockets, does not mean they can spend at will. I assume there was some caution at play, with management choosing to test the market and observe carefully before committing to follow-on orders.

 

[jis]

Just because Brightline, or their parent company, have very deep pockets, does not mean they can spend at will. I assume there was some caution at play, with management choosing to test the market and observe carefully before committing to follow-on orders.

Yeah, I think using the term "mismanaged" suggest there may be a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking from the armchair going on here. Until two years back more people were convinced that Brightline will crash and burn, and Brightline took arguably a prudent course even before Covid struck, fully shutting down Brightline for a while with almost everyone furloughed/laid off all the way upto Vice President level in some cases.

They will recover fine, but they will need to get more equipment than they currently have on order. I understand additional equipment order is about to be placed. We will know more about it soon enough.

Meanwhile some more scuttlebutt fro people in the know about Brightline:

• The Cocoa station unlike the Stuart station will be a two platform track station on the Orlando side. It will have large bus bays to accommodate Cruise Terminal shuttles and such. some tracks will be moved around to build it and accommodation will be made for a third platform track for use of future service to Jacksonville.
• There will be development of mixed housing, offices and a large parking structure in the lot adjacent to the Cocoa station.
• The exact design of the station head house is still being worked.
• Someone dug into property transaction records and discovered that Brightline has recently acquire land by FECR RoW in Titusville, Bunnell and St. Augustine area. No one knows for sure what that means, since it is generally understood that nothing will happen to the North before Tampa is done.

 

[cirdan]

• The Cocoa station unlike the Stuart station will be a two platform track station on the Orlando side. It will have large bus bays to accommodate Cruise Terminal shuttles and such. some tracks will be moved around to build it and accommodation will be made for a third platform track for use of future service to Jacksonville.
• There will be development of mixed housing, offices and a large parking structure in the lot adjacent to the Cocoa station.

Interesting that.

We have previously on this forum speculated about the track design of the Cocoa station, and particularly whether a third leg will eventually be added to the wye to allow direct Jacksonville to Orlando / Tampa trains. Such a construction would by-pass Cocoa station. The alternative of reversing in Cocoa station would not be possible if the platforms are on the actual wye rather than on the FEC mainline. The train would now need to stop once in the station and once again on the mainline to reverse.

I assume that Brightline (or their parent company) already owns the land earmarked for development at the Cocoa site?

It also looks like a good site for a bus hub, with its proximity to several highways.

 

[jis]

Interesting that.

We have previously on this forum speculated about the track design of the Cocoa station, and particularly whether a third leg will eventually be added to the wye to allow direct Jacksonville to Orlando / Tampa trains. Such a construction would by-pass Cocoa station. The alternative of reversing in Cocoa station would not be possible if the platforms are on the actual wye rather than on the FEC mainline. The train would now need to stop once in the station and once again on the mainline to reverse.

I assume that Brightline (or their parent company) already owns the land earmarked for development at the Cocoa site?

It also looks like a good site for a bus hub, with its proximity to several highways.

There are no plans for any third leg. Finding a 1,000' straight segment on the third leg that is the Brightline standard requirement for a platform would be tough anyway, and it is way too much work when you already have trivially reversible trains for very little gain for a secondary/tertiary service. The main flow by far will remain to be Orlando to Miami. JAX may be served by Miami JAX service that connect with Orlando Miami service at Cocoa or some such. Of course no one has given much thought to Jacksonville at present in any detail since it is possibly more that ten years away.

Yes. Brightline does own the land that we have alluded to above.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah, I think using the term "mismanaged" suggest there may be a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking from the armchair going on here. Until two years back more people were convinced that Brightline will crash and burn, and Brightline took arguably a prudent course even before Covid struck, fully shutting down Brightline for a while with almost everyone furloughed/laid off all the way upto Vice President level in some cases.

They will recover fine, but they will need to get more equipment than they currently have on order. I understand additional equipment order is about to be placed. We will know more about it soon enough.

Meanwhile some more scuttlebutt fro people in the know about Brightline:

• The Cocoa station unlike the Stuart station will be a two platform track station on the Orlando side. It will have large bus bays to accommodate Cruise Terminal shuttles and such. some tracks will be moved around to build it and accommodation will be made for a third platform track for use of future service to Jacksonville.
• There will be development of mixed housing, offices and a large parking structure in the lot adjacent to the Cocoa station.
• The exact design of the station head house is still being worked.
• Someone dug into property transaction records and discovered that Brightline has recently acquire land by FECR RoW in Titusville, Bunnell and St. Augustine area. No one knows for sure what that means, since it is generally understood that nothing will happen to the North before Tampa is done.

So, I'm sticking by my phrasing, but only because I don't think it is unreasonable to wag a finger at them about impossible-to-meet-due-to-lack-of-equipment ridership projections. The issue is that, particularly once they get to some point, either they're not buying their projections or they're fumbling the order. From a certain perspective, it's "Are you lying or just stupid?" and I'm being charitable.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Have fun with this....

https://www.wusf.org/transportation...ays-florida-wont-pay-for-brightline-expansion

 

[jis]

Have fun with this....

https://www.wusf.org/transportation...ays-florida-wont-pay-for-brightline-expansion

Fortunately by the time any real money will be needed DeSantis will be history as he is term limited. Also, it is not clear why this money was requested at this point anyway. It is not Brightline that asked for it as far as I can tell.