Brightline Trains Florida discussion

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Seems like Brightline's social media presence is anemic at best. Really - no real new posts since the beginning of service. There is more news about the lady who got herself killed while trespassing than about opening day.

If they can't be excited, how long can our excitement last?

There is one youtube video that's "ok" showing the stations and the ride. I tried to make it down there, but just couldn't pull it off. 6 hours is a long way to drive, and with the MLK weekend, hotels were expensive.
 
I know that these have been discussed before, but I'd like to bring these up again.

First of all, it seems like having two locomotives is good for redundancy but the extra weight leads to extra fuel consumption that is unnecessary. I will say though that the consists look very sharp and homogeneous unlike other diesel locomotive hauling sets. Any comments on that?

Also, how much longer can the consists grow? Is there room that if there is ever the need for the platform to hold ALL passenger cars only that the locomotives and perhaps the snack car can "hang off the ends" of the platform?

It seemed from the just the couple of videos that I saw that the interest and ridership seemed particularly low. Not a lot in the news other than that lady getting herself killed, and the trains were hardly "sellouts".
Having two locomotives is potentially more costly in terms of extra weight needing to be moved (although you need to factor in that if you had a single locomotive it would probably need to be more powerful and thus heavier).

Also, unless you have a cab car, you would need to switch the consist around at the end of the trip. The layout in Miami doesn't allow for that, and I think this is by design as they wanted to optimize the commercial space.

I don't know if train lengths will ever outgrow platform lengths. If ridership were to hit such heights, it would probably be better actually to run more trains than to run longer trains.

Maybe also the next generation of Brightline trains will be dmus rather than locomotives and cars, thus providing more capacity for the same train length.

I don't think it will be easy to extend the platforms at Miami as at one end there is a building in the way and at the other there is a viaduct. Of course with sufficient money, anything is possible.
 
I believe it has been discussed here before, but the 2 locomotives are for when service to Orlando begins. This will allow the longer consists to reach speeds of 110+ mph, like is done in Michigan.

The select service has been selling out almost every trip, and I heard one of the afternoon trains were completely sold out yesterday. The WPB to FTL market is small. Most of the riders are just trying out the new train service. When things settle down and Miami service begins, we'll get a much better picture on ridership. Even then, Orlando will be the money maker.
 
Yes - it's been discussed here before, but unfortunately this site lacks a quality search function. Again, aesthetically, the consist rivals the Acela. I appreciate the redundancy, and perhaps the real answer is for the higher speed to Orlando. But were talking practically zero grade (even when MIA to ORL is fully operational) and a six to 10 car train - hardly something these 4,400 HP engines would be phased by. I would have probably opt't for a cab car (but one that was identical to the loco, not like the Bombardier ones). That being said, there is stability realized whenever a train is pulled rather than pushed. Would be interesting to know if only the lead loco in each direction is actually the driver.

FWIW, the New Mexico Rail Runner Express only uses one 3,600 HP MP36PH 3C (which has a separate HEP engine), and it has considerable grades, albiet shorter consists. It maxes out at 79 MPH.

According to Wikipedia, they only plan to expand the five coaches to a maximum of seven. If this thing takes off, that could be a bit short sighted.

I'm glad to hear that there was excitement on site. Wish I could have been there!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My guess is they want some redundancy with the two locomotives, especially once Orlando happens and there is a 180 mile gap between the Orlando station and West Palm Beach station. I believe both locos are powered up, even for the WPB to FTL trip. I figured they'd just power up one loco and have the other act as a control unit, but these guys have decades of experience compared to my 0
default_mosking.gif
. That said, the train really takes off when you leave the station.

I agree aesthetically it does compare to the Acela, and even the entire experience as a whole compares to riding the Acela (minus the hot meals!).
 
Pardon me if I sound like a fool. Does Brightline now have exclusive ROW on its routes? (i.e. no freights or Amtrak)
Not at all. This entire venture was originated by the Florida East Coast railroad, using their own money, using their real estate and tracks. Now, there's been some shakeup in the parent company, but they all seem to be cooperating with each other. There are freight trains, but no Amtrak (though Amtrak probably wish otherwise).
In other words, FEC as a whole will be responsible for their own success.
Just to set the record straight again ... Actually Brightline was conceived by Florida East Coast Industries, with the blessing of their owner Fortress Group, which also happened then to own Florida East Coast Railroad, but does not anymore, and not Florida East Coast Railroad.
There currently is no FEC as a whole. FEC Railroad is owned by Grupo Mexico. The Fortress Group is owned by Softbank, and hence so is FECI and AAF of which Brightline is a dba. There are established contracts between FECR and AAF enabling operation of both AAF passenger trains and FECR freight trains on FECR property with enhancements to it that are owned by AAF. Dispatching of the railroad both the existing FECR and any enhancements made by AAF, including new exclusive passenger trackage between Cocoa-Rockledge and Orlando Airport is being and will be done by the Flroida Dispatching Company which is an equally jointly owned subsidiary of FECR and AAF.

AAF and FECR have to stand individually on their own and succeed or fail. I understand there are all sorts of exception clauses in their contracts to cover for cases where one side screws up etc., but have no clue what the details are.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes - it's been discussed here before, but unfortunately this site lacks a quality search function. Again, aesthetically, the consist rivals the Acela. I appreciate the redundancy, and perhaps the real answer is for the higher speed to Orlando. But were talking practically zero grade (even when MIA to ORL is fully operational) and a six to 10 car train - hardly something these 4,400 HP engines would be phased by. I would have probably opt't for a cab car (but one that was identical to the loco, not like the Bombardier ones). That being said, there is stability realized whenever a train is pulled rather than pushed. Would be interesting to know if only the lead loco in each direction is actually the driver.

FWIW, the New Mexico Rail Runner Express only uses one 3,600 HP MP36PH 3C (which has a separate HEP engine), and it has considerable grades, albiet shorter consists. It maxes out at 79 MPH.

According to Wikipedia, they only plan to expand the five coaches to a maximum of seven. If this thing takes off, that could be a bit short sighted.

I'm glad to hear that there was excitement on site. Wish I could have been there!
They only have "plans" to extend the trains to 7 coaches, but that's on the basis of the existing car order (4 cars at the moment, 5 when they extend to Miami, and 7 when they extend to Orlando). IIRC the station platforms are set up to accommodate 9-car trains (which is a reasonable maximum in the near term; really, the fact that we often end up talking about Regionals [1] needing to go to 10+ cars [2] outside of peak-of-the-peak periods is arguably a symptom of capacity problems and not a good sign...ideally you'd probably want to see Amtrak adding additional trains to cover that capacity since doing so would offer some mix of added customer flexibility (and thus induced demand) and added operational flexibility (e.g. slipping another station or two onto a few trains' timecards)).

Do remember that it is very likely that if the service to Orlando is successful enough to make them want to push for even longer trains, they'd probably be moving very quickly to extend service to Jacksonville...and that right there gets you an extra slug of trains between Miami and Cocoa to move capacity onto. Stuffing a passing siding or some limited double-tracking onto the Cocoa-Orlando segment would probably also not be the toughest thing in the world, either, so simply pushing up to two TPH at peak hours between Orlando and Miami (or between West Palm Beach and Miami) probably wouldn't take too much longer than it would take to order and take delivery on a few new trainsets. Do remember that in their wrangling with Tri-Rail they wanted any Tri-Rail service to presume that Brightline would use up to four trains per hour (IIRC the number was 64 daily round-trips), so this is something they've considered.

In some wild scenario where Brightline service is swamping four TPH worth of capacity, I very strongly suspect that all of the stations save for Miami could probably have their platforms extended to 11-12 cars without an extreme amount of engineering being needed. Miami is only complicated because the platforms are something like 4-5 stories above street level. However, the levels of ridership required to achieve this would be stunning. [2]

[1] Not necessarily LD trains, which are their own complicated kettle of fish and which have reasons to be longer.

[2] And here I'm specifically referring to cars in the size range of a "standard" Amfleet, Horizon, etc. and in use on an intercity, not commuter, run. If you're looking at Talgos or something like that, you'd expect a higher car count, while commuter runs have their own quirks and there are often reasons to let those trains be a bit longer.

[3] Ok, going with the current equipment you have 49 seats in the Select carriage and 66 in each Smart carriage. Presuming that a 9-car train would have two Select carriages (2*49=98), I'm going to also presume 6 "regular" Smart carriages (6*66=396) plus the ninth carriage having reduced capacity due to some sort of food service station (probably not a full cafe). Let's figure you get 26 seats out of the food carriage (losing 40 to food service space), though I could easily see getting 46 seats out of it (or even getting a full seventh carriage and the food service space coming out of the second Select carriage...this is what you have on Great Western over in the UK, by the way). So you've got 520-540 seats per train. Four TPH in each direction gives 4160-4320 seats per hour...and overall capacity depends on just how many hours you run at those levels. Six hours at those levels and ten hours at half of them gives somewhere around 45,000 seats per day. If you're going with that on weekdays and two TPH service on other days (I'm presuming 250 "standard" weekdays and the remaining 115 days as "standard" weekends), you'd have 15.27m seats per year and you'd probably be looking at overall ridership in the range of 10-15m riders per year (remember, you've got a number of station pairs to work with here, so there's going to be some seat turnover). Considering that the current projections hover in the range of roughly 3-5m riders per year if everything is running smoothly, I think we're a decent distance off from that...but truth be told, if this were paired with Tri-Rail service, improved connections at the stations, and perhaps half of those trains making a few more stops I could see it in the long run.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Very interesting post, Anderson! Thanks for the detail. Also, I believe you meant to put [3] after your third paragraph instead of [2].

As for the number of engines per trainset, you would think it would be more cost-effective and fuel-efficient to only run one per trainset, but maybe they decided to go with two because Siemens was already pumping out the Chargers and passenger cars but didn't have an assembly line for cab cars? I could be completely off base: I'm just brainstorming.

On another note, does anyone know anything about the areas around the stations? How close/far are they from restaurants, local attractions, hotels, etc? Walking distance, or will there have to be a shuttle? I'm just wondering if this can also be used for folks wanting to, say, have dinner in another city.

Also, I was just looking on Brightline's website and it looks like they're listing 40 minute running times instead of the claimed 30, which is funnily displayed right above the schedules. I recall first-hand accounts said actual times were 33-35 minutes?
 
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that the 30-30 from West Palm Beach to Miami is a marketing ploy and a Perry dumb one at that. More likely, 35-25 or possibly 40-20. Just didn't look good on a billboard I guess.

But since most folks probably don't care about West Palm to Ft Lauderdale, I suppose the 60 minutes to Miami is the takeaway.

Still, frustrating to numbers people.

Totally different question: are test trains running to Miami? Is the station the only holdup?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Totally different question: are test trains running to Miami? Is the station the only holdup?
I don't know about the station, but maybe it's also a question of equipment and staff. They can probably cover the present service with two sets. To run to Miami would need at least 4 sets, more likely 5.

Maybe the train sets are delivered, but are they already commissioned and fully fit for service? Has the staff been trained?

I guess it is easier to have a small pilot operation so that managers can keep a closer eye on what's happening and identify problems and scope for improvement.
 
Miami only requires 3 trainsets, and I believe all 5 trainsets have been commissioned by this point. Also, MIA to WPB will only be the current 4 coaches. When Orlando happens, they are expected to add 1 smart coach, 1 select coach, and some type of cafe car (I don't know if they determined the exact configuration they want to go with. Maybe the new Midwest/California order will give a clue.)

I know that before December, they were running all the way to just before where the ramp up to the Miami station starts. They may have run a couple of trains that way since then. I still don't believe construction on the station is finished. This blog has been taking pictures regularly of the construction progress- https://www.goldenduskphotography.com/blog/2017/12/4/miamicentral-construction-photos?rq=MiamiCentral
 
Actually, none that I noticed. The automated announcements are all done in English. Comparatively on Tri-Rail, there are certain announcements in English, Spanish, and Creole.
 
@Chriscrj: That makes sense. I couldn't recall if there was going to be a "dedicated" food car or not (e.g. I expected some dedicated food service space, particularly if but the form that was to take wasn't entirely certain). I think there might have originally been a plan to have another coach on the WPB-MIA run and they revised the plan. I figured they'd need some space to store the meals they indicated would be included with Select on the run to Orlando, but beyond that I didn't know what they'd actually need (or if their needs had changed since the planning phase started).
 
Actually, none that I noticed. The automated announcements are all done in English. Comparatively on Tri-Rail, there are certain announcements in English, Spanish, and Creole.
The platform number signs at the platforms have Spanish “Linea” as I recall from my private tour back in September with the FECRS folks. Don’t recall anything else off the top of my head.
Given that it is Miami-Dade they should probably have more Spanish signage.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
 
Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!
 
Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!
If you can figure out how to do it, be sure and contact FRA. Nobody has been successful yet. Tri-Rail has had 40 deaths.

Suicide by train.

Inattention

People just not realizing how fast a train is and how far to get across the tracks.

Impatience

Stupidity.

All are causes. None will ever be cured IMHO.
 
Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.
 
Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.
The UK has fenced off it's entire rail network (or just about all of it) in urban areas they're using fencing like this. Sure it isn't pretty, but it's a lot harder to cut or climb over.

grp%20fence.JPG


(Image found on Google, sorry about the size)

peter
 
Put thick fencing along the RoW. I don't mean chainlink that can be cut with pliers, I mean thick steel rail fencing, 7 feet tall, like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/US-Door-Fence-Pro-Series-4-84-ft-H-x-7-75-ft-W-Black-Steel-Fence-Panel-F2GHDS93X58US/205998435. Run a wire through each segment so if it's cut, the wire breaks and triggers an alert. Not enough to stop trains like a slide detector, but enough to send a crew out to at least fix it, and/or the police out to see if someone's still around. Also, 4-quadrant gates at every intersection with sidewalk gates where applicable. Couple this with heavy police enforcement of not sitting on the tracks. I'd also add CCTV along the entire stretch of line with the images cycling like 3 minutes ahead of any trains to see any obstructions with enough time to stop if need be.
If only it was affordable.
 
Wow! Brightline is just starting and there are already pedestrian or trespasser strikes! Why does this keep happening?! This really needs to stop!
I agree...people need to stop trying to "beat the train". Every major railroad has pedestrian strikes/trespasser incidents and, to a lesser extent, vehicle hits at grade crossings. You can try fencing off chunks of the network (I'm not sure of the benefit or utility of trying to do so in tens of thousands of miles of rural areas, but at least in urban-ish areas it's theoretically an option), but dealing with all of the grade crossings in every significant city in America would be absurdly expensive, not to mention grossly disruptive to many towns (e.g. Ashland, VA).
 
I didn't say it'd be cheap, I said that's how you do it. Another alternative is to slow all the trains down to 5mph and surround them with 20ft of foam rubber and bubble wrap...but that's what PTC is for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top