Brightline/Virgin Trains Orlando-Miami update Orlando Sentinel 11/21/19

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
25,668
If Disney go forward with the station at Disney world they might spring for the $20M + to build a line to Port Canaveral for their ships and others ?
It will cost much much more than $20 million to build new tracks from Cocoa FECR to Port Canaveral even if it is is done along the SR528 RoW.
 

neroden

Conductor
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
7,778
I'm really wondering about how the planned station on Disney property will connect to the actual Disney parks and hotels. They could just do it the sloppy way with the Disney buses, but it would get them a lot more business if they made a bus-free, fixed-guideway connection -- considering what sort of customers are most likely to arrive by train!
 

Anderson

Conductor
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
9,567
I'm really wondering about how the planned station on Disney property will connect to the actual Disney parks and hotels. They could just do it the sloppy way with the Disney buses, but it would get them a lot more business if they made a bus-free, fixed-guideway connection -- considering what sort of customers are most likely to arrive by train!
I think they'll need to go with a bus, at least to start with. Remember, "the actual Disney parks and hotels" comprises a whole bunch of points (four main parks and a lot of hotels) that won't slide nicely onto a single system. If they'd gone with the "unified monorail system" idea back in the 80s, they'd probably shotgun the two together somehow. Now? They've got way too many modes floating about, too big of a park, and too frakking many transfers would be needed.
 

neroden

Conductor
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
7,778
They should at least have a fixed guideway to the Magic Kingdom or the Ticketing Center. Buses are... Unattractive. Multiple transfers are OK if they are all *themed* transfers reflecting the "experience", but buses break the suspension of disbelief for most of the parks.

What they really ought to do is have multiple point to point lines from the train station, each themed to the park/resort it is heading to. This fits the Disney idea of starting the vacation experience as soon as possible. So, futuristic or international themed transport to Epcot, retro or fantasy themed transport to Magic Kingdom, boat transport to the watrerparks, safari themed transport to the Animal Kingdom, you get the idea.
 

Qapla

OBS Chief
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
979
Although "Trams" are not "futuristic" - they would fit the Theme Park idea and not need tracks.
 

Willbridge

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
392
Good points about convention/conference travel. A "discovery" that we made at OreDOT years ago is that typical transport studies just had a catch-all business trip purpose. In fact, conference/convention travelers do not behave in the stereotypical manner of road warriors, but most studies mashed them together.
 

MARC Rider

Conductor
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,984
They should at least have a fixed guideway to the Magic Kingdom or the Ticketing Center. Buses are... Unattractive. Multiple transfers are OK if they are all *themed* transfers reflecting the "experience", but buses break the suspension of disbelief for most of the parks.

What they really ought to do is have multiple point to point lines from the train station, each themed to the park/resort it is heading to. This fits the Disney idea of starting the vacation experience as soon as possible. So, futuristic or international themed transport to Epcot, retro or fantasy themed transport to Magic Kingdom, boat transport to the watrerparks, safari themed transport to the Animal Kingdom, you get the idea.
This is perhaps overdoing the need for some sort of themed travel experience. On my one trip to Disney World with my wife and 8-year old daughter in 1999, we stayed at the Wilderness Lodge, and, except for the boat ride to the Magic Kingdom, we relied on the Disney buses to get us places. Yeah, we took the bus to the ticketing center to ride the monorail to Epcot, but when we needed to get back to the hotel later in the evening, the direct bus was fine. What's important is the buses are frequent and go everywhere.

Whether they need a fixed guideway from the Virgin Trains Station to the parks really depends on how bad the traffic is, and whether the buses get caught in the traffic. What travelers would really want is a single seat ride from the train station to their hotel or directly to the park, if they're day-trippers. It d0esn't really matter whether it's a bus or some sort of fixed guideway gadgetbahn.
 

Anderson

Conductor
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
9,567
This is perhaps overdoing the need for some sort of themed travel experience. On my one trip to Disney World with my wife and 8-year old daughter in 1999, we stayed at the Wilderness Lodge, and, except for the boat ride to the Magic Kingdom, we relied on the Disney buses to get us places. Yeah, we took the bus to the ticketing center to ride the monorail to Epcot, but when we needed to get back to the hotel later in the evening, the direct bus was fine. What's important is the buses are frequent and go everywhere.

Whether they need a fixed guideway from the Virgin Trains Station to the parks really depends on how bad the traffic is, and whether the buses get caught in the traffic. What travelers would really want is a single seat ride from the train station to their hotel or directly to the park, if they're day-trippers. It d0esn't really matter whether it's a bus or some sort of fixed guideway gadgetbahn.
Well, and the cost of a (well, yet another) bespoke "gadgetbahn" is something that comes into play here. I tend to agree that a link to the TTC (to preserve that suspension of disbelief for both Magic Kingdom/Epcot visitors and for the folks staying at the high-dollar "monorail hotels") would be ideal. The point about dressing them up the links as trams (or something that otherwise at least has the pretense of being "not a bus") is a good one. However, where the station ends up being will impact what should be done/what can be done affordably.
 

jiml

Conductor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
1,324
This is perhaps overdoing the need for some sort of themed travel experience. On my one trip to Disney World with my wife and 8-year old daughter in 1999, we stayed at the Wilderness Lodge, and, except for the boat ride to the Magic Kingdom, we relied on the Disney buses to get us places. Yeah, we took the bus to the ticketing center to ride the monorail to Epcot, but when we needed to get back to the hotel later in the evening, the direct bus was fine. What's important is the buses are frequent and go everywhere.

Whether they need a fixed guideway from the Virgin Trains Station to the parks really depends on how bad the traffic is, and whether the buses get caught in the traffic. What travelers would really want is a single seat ride from the train station to their hotel or directly to the park, if they're day-trippers. It d0esn't really matter whether it's a bus or some sort of fixed guideway gadgetbahn.
My experience dates from the same period, when our kids were much younger, however this observation is spot-on. We were frequent visitors there from the 70's to early 2000's and Disney had transportation figured out for that entire period and I don't imagine it has changed all that much. We even did the "behind the scenes" transportation tour one year. Walt himself had resolved to not repeat the limitations of Disneyland when the Florida parks were built. When you control everything in your "environment" you can do stuff that no one else can. Even their buses have private roads that skirt traffic problems when needed. My guess is that if they've got money in this Virgin game they already have their next moves planned well-ahead of the other participants. When the trains start rolling in that direction they won't be dropping passengers in the middle of nowhere.
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
25,668
Good points about convention/conference travel. A "discovery" that we made at OreDOT years ago is that typical transport studies just had a catch-all business trip purpose. In fact, conference/convention travelers do not behave in the stereotypical manner of road warriors, but most studies mashed them together.
Actually there are many different types of conferences and conventions. There are some that are indeed extended business meetings and others that are more of a vacation shindig in disguise of a conference, and everything in between. The attendees of the former type behave like road warriors. I know because I have been one of those all my professional life. The ones of the latter type behave more like vacationers. Though not that often, but have been one of those too.
 

Brian_tampa

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
274
My guess is that if they've got money in this Virgin game they already have their next moves planned well-ahead of the other participants. When the trains start rolling in that direction they won't be dropping passengers in the middle of nowhere.
It is my opinion that Disney has been working at some level with Virgin Trains for quite some time now. Back in 2012-2014 when All Aboard Florida management had several ex-Disney people at the upper levels is probably when this Disney station idea was formed. That is my suspicion. Disney and FECI/AAF/Virgin Trains are similar in how they are run. Both keep things very close to the vest and both plan very, very well. If there is to be a station at Disney, you can be assured that most everything will have been thought out and designed for future expansion. Case in point is when I was told by a project engineer working for Virgin Trains that they (Virgin, and Disney also?) were considering special DMU type trainsets for Disney-MCO service. This is the type of planning I am talking about.

As far as location goes, unless Disney brings major $$$ to the table to move it closer to their parks, it will be close to the I-4 ROW. Where along I-4 depends on the negotiations with FDOT and CFX. At this point IMO, the most likely location would be near where the old HSR project had their Disney station where I-4 and SR417 meet. The old HSR project had the station in the median. However, with the future expansion of I-4 through that area, it could end up on Disney property adjacent to the I-4 ROW on the north side.
 

neroden

Conductor
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
7,778
What I'm hearing is "Disney probably already has something fancier than a bus planned, but will keep it secret until shortly before it opens because that's their style". OK.
 

Anderson

Conductor
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
9,567
What I'm hearing is "Disney probably already has something fancier than a bus planned, but will keep it secret until shortly before it opens because that's their style". OK.
Even if it isn't until "shortly before it opens", it will probably be sorted out (and then announced) once the station location is selected. Now, what form it will take? Who knows?
 

jis

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
25,668
Also the station location would be darned obvious many months before it is opened unless a technique for instantaneous installation of station is perfected by then :)
 

Just-Thinking-51

Conductor
AU Lifetime Supporter
AU Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,959
Couple of notes:

Walt Disney world has a traffic problem. This is why they charge for parking, with the added benefit of captive audience/spending.

Disney is very good at use other people money for improvement, not there own.

Magic Kingdom express is a contractor bus from the airport to your resort hotel. It can carry luggage but a truck normally will drop off your bags directly to your room. The Disney (in-house) buses do not have any provisions for luggage.

There is no organized service from the Amtrak station. Take a city bus with luggage is no longer available. As you can’t access your Hotel bus at the TTC (Transportation Ticket Center) without going thur park security lines.

Bus are based out of multiple locations and have flexibility based on passenger waiting on where they go next.

After several years of about 300 buses, they are increasing drivers, and buses. About 350 at last check.

Bus only routes are showing up for several major choke points, more need however.

Brand new Star War themed hotel will be served by bus, even the shuttle to the park is a themed bus.

In recap Disney has traffic issues, if someone is will to pay and meet Disney requirements then you might get a train station serviced by buses, to your hotel, but expect it to by a contractor bus, not a Disney bus.
 

Anderson

Conductor
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
9,567
As long as the "contractor bus" is being held to Disney's standards, I'd hold that it's still a "Disney bus". The difference is fundamentally who is cutting the paychecks.
 
Top