I'm new to the terminology used on Amtrak forums and would like to know what the word Bucket has to do with pricing.
Thanks for any info.
Thanks for any info.
Bucket
- Thread starter Asher
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2010
- Messages
- 4,888
A "bucket" is just a price point. Assuming for a particular pair of points, Amtrak had a low fare when they are not selling a lot of tickets, a higher one when selling a bunch and a very high one when the class was near full. Those three fare points would be called buckets.
Each Amtrak fare on a certain train between two points for a certain travel category (coach, business class, two or three different types of sleepers) can have as many as 5 different prices - or buckets -depending on the date travel begins and the date the price is checked by the prospective customer. Some here on this forum assert the bucket/price assigned to a certain fare is based on sound economic strategies designed to maximize profits. These strategies consider the number of unsold seats/sleepers, the day of the week, past revenues, holidays, the season, special events along the route and probably a number of other factors which are unknown and unknowable to the prospective ticket buyer (you and I).
The net result of all this economic mumbo-jumbo is there is no way of knowing how the price of a certain ticket will change with changes in the date of travel and the date the price is checked It's as if ticket prices were set by a blindfolded monkey selecting one of five pre-determined ticket prices from a jar. Sometimes the price increases, sometimes it stays the same, sometimes it decreases. The best way to get a feeling for what I'm talking about is to use this website... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...to get a month's worth of fares between any two points, starting with tomorrow's date and then compare those different fares with the different fares for travel starting a month or two from now.
If you do that and find any rhyme or reason for the changes you'll get nominated for a Nobel Prize!
The net result of all this economic mumbo-jumbo is there is no way of knowing how the price of a certain ticket will change with changes in the date of travel and the date the price is checked It's as if ticket prices were set by a blindfolded monkey selecting one of five pre-determined ticket prices from a jar. Sometimes the price increases, sometimes it stays the same, sometimes it decreases. The best way to get a feeling for what I'm talking about is to use this website... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...to get a month's worth of fares between any two points, starting with tomorrow's date and then compare those different fares with the different fares for travel starting a month or two from now.
If you do that and find any rhyme or reason for the changes you'll get nominated for a Nobel Prize!
Thank you me_little_me and niemi24 for the information.................................I think a noble prize is out of the question!Each Amtrak fare on a certain train between two points for a certain travel category (coach, business class ... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php .
If you do that and find any rhyme or reason for the changes you'll get nominated for a Nobel Prize!
Last edited by a moderator:
BCL
Engineer
I think in general it describes the pricing structure, and the change in pricing as availability goes down (or sometimes increases). "Low bucket" describes the lowest price for a particular routing. "High bucket" would be the highest possible price. In general, the price will go up as the lower-priced buckets are sold. It may not be the same as how airlines price tickets, which is heavily dependent on time of year or time near peak periods. However, how the buckets are filled is probably a little bit more complicated than just point to point prices since train travel ends up with a lot of overlapping routings.
Just in case anybody's not too familiar with using Amsnag to get fares, here's one I got on 3 August 2015 which pretty much shows the variability of the fares:
F'rinstance, one adult in a roomette ranges from $228 to $443. One adult in a bedroom ranges from $274 to $557. And note there was one day where a bedroom was $2 less than a roomette! See the pattern?
Regards
F'rinstance, one adult in a roomette ranges from $228 to $443. One adult in a bedroom ranges from $274 to $557. And note there was one day where a bedroom was $2 less than a roomette! See the pattern?
Regards
Last edited by a moderator:
the_traveler
Engineer
Also, the bucket is dependent on the load factor for that specific train only. That is why today's CZ may be higher then tomorrow's CZ. Likewise, on routes that have numerous train daily, the 1 pm departure may not be the same amount as the 7 am or 4 pm departures.
How is the load factor determined? And once it is determined, how does/can it affect the fare/bucket?
Last edited by a moderator:
Those are some strange numbers. What happens if you are booked at a price on a future trip and you notice a huge difference in price for that trip when checking at a later date, can you modify the trip or is it possible to cancel the previous and re- book.
Don't cancel!
If the fare drops after you've paid for your ticket DO NOT cancel and then try to re-book at the lower fare. Instead, talk to an Amtrak agent and have your ticket modified for the lower fare. That'll avoid the possibility that 3 seconds after you cancel a sleeper reservation, somebody else will book it and - lo and behold - it was the last available sleeper! If you modify your reservation, you never relinquish your hold on the sleeper. This might also apply when the fare drops for a coach or business class ticket.
Those numbers seem strange mainly because that Amsnag query was the first one in my Recycle Bin that showed a lot of fluctuations in most categories. Sometimes you'll make an Amsnag query and find very few fluctuations. The really strange part to me is that when there are a lot of fluctuations in one column, they appear to be random: up, down, up, up, down up, down, down. Don't recall ever seeing any trends in any of the many, many Amsnag queries I've made.
What's really strange on a Superliner query is to see occasions where a roomette (no commode) is more than a bedroom (commode and shower). No wonder Economics is often referred to as "the dismal science"!
Regards
If the fare drops after you've paid for your ticket DO NOT cancel and then try to re-book at the lower fare. Instead, talk to an Amtrak agent and have your ticket modified for the lower fare. That'll avoid the possibility that 3 seconds after you cancel a sleeper reservation, somebody else will book it and - lo and behold - it was the last available sleeper! If you modify your reservation, you never relinquish your hold on the sleeper. This might also apply when the fare drops for a coach or business class ticket.
Those numbers seem strange mainly because that Amsnag query was the first one in my Recycle Bin that showed a lot of fluctuations in most categories. Sometimes you'll make an Amsnag query and find very few fluctuations. The really strange part to me is that when there are a lot of fluctuations in one column, they appear to be random: up, down, up, up, down up, down, down. Don't recall ever seeing any trends in any of the many, many Amsnag queries I've made.
What's really strange on a Superliner query is to see occasions where a roomette (no commode) is more than a bedroom (commode and shower). No wonder Economics is often referred to as "the dismal science"!
Regards
Last edited by a moderator:
In business school, it is called "yield management". You attempt to manage your stock of saleable space by changing prices based on a number of factors. Supply, historical demand, time remaining to sell (usually higher as you get closer), the "if I don't sell it, I get zero, if I sell too many too cheap at the end I **** off people who paid more", and a myriad of other nuances and factors. Hotel rooms, ships, airline seats, train travel, all use some form of this methodology. It is an extraordinarily important function that can make or break these businesses, and it is normally afforded the highest priority in information technology depts. Amtrak is a little gentler in the manner in which a reservation can be modified than many other carriers, they can adjust to demand a little better than some of the others. While not an everyday occurrence, it is easier to lengthen or shorten a train than a ship or airplane, the ability to switch to a different plane or ship for a specific flight or cruise is extremely difficult from a logistical standpoint. It is yet another reason why the next huge expenditure at Amtrak may not be rolling stock or power, it may be computer power and a new set of systems.
Yes, in a number of ways. Historical load factor-what does the data show about this train in the past? Is there something that is likely to raise or lower the number? So on a plane, you have available seat miles, divided by passenger seat miles which gives you load factor. The next step is to calculate revenue per passenger mile against available seat miles which gives you an average yield per seat mile. Layer in baggage fees, more legroom, food and beverage. On Amtrak, other things come up, Take a train from NYP to WAS. What happens if all the seats get sold for NYP to PHL, but I want to go MetroPark to Baltimore? Not good for me, but the same seats could be sold again lets say from PHL to WAS. A NEC regional with 250 passengers can have a conductor and an A/C and a cafe car attendant, on an airplane it"s one F/A per 50 seats occupied or not. 150 seats 75 passengers = 3 F/A 151 seats 75 passengers = 4 F/A
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
So far as I can tell there is no economic explanation for this. This paradox appears to be due solely to ARROW's inability to coordinate prices across compartment types.
Last edited by a moderator:
If roomettes are close to selling out, or if historical data indicates that they are likely too, and bedrooms are not selling, roomette prices go up, bedrooms drop. After departure, they have no value other than a possible upgrade enroute. It is a little strange, but not totally unreasonable to see the price lines cross. But any comments regarding the limitations of Arrow are usually justified nonetheless.
In the table posted by niemi24s, the accommodation charge (for the roomette, family room, or bedroom) is in addition to the rail fare. Each passenger must pay the rail fare, but only one passenger pays the accommodation charge for the room.
The rail fare is the low bucket coach fare. In the table, this appears to be $102. If two people travel in a bedroom, then they would pay two rail fares plus the bedroom charge. Because they are not traveling in coach, the coach fare bucket does not apply. This can lead to situations where it is cheaper to book a roomette than to travel coach and buy meals in the diner. (Meals are included in the room charge, except on the Silver Star.)
The one passenger who pays the accommodation charge gets the AGR points for the dollars that pay the accommodation charge. For a couple that usually travel together, it might make sense to have the same person always listed first (and get the AGR points for the accommodation) so that person can achieve a higher status.
Corrections and clarifications are welcome.
The rail fare is the low bucket coach fare. In the table, this appears to be $102. If two people travel in a bedroom, then they would pay two rail fares plus the bedroom charge. Because they are not traveling in coach, the coach fare bucket does not apply. This can lead to situations where it is cheaper to book a roomette than to travel coach and buy meals in the diner. (Meals are included in the room charge, except on the Silver Star.)
The one passenger who pays the accommodation charge gets the AGR points for the dollars that pay the accommodation charge. For a couple that usually travel together, it might make sense to have the same person always listed first (and get the AGR points for the accommodation) so that person can achieve a higher status.
Corrections and clarifications are welcome.
And I think the reason you said ". . .appears to be. . ." is because the posted table only shows two different coach fares/buckets. But if there are five buckets, as I've heard, there's no way of knowing from that table if the low coach fare shown in the table ($102) is actually the low bucket fare. And even if Amsnag queries were made to cover the entire period for which a particular set of buckets was in effect, the only way you could tell which was the low bucket (or high bucket) would be if five different coach fares were shown.
If that's understandable, seems as if the same line of reasoning would apply to the sleeper charges.
Last edited by a moderator:
the_traveler
Engineer
A few years ago, I was booking a frequent flyer award ticket for a friend. Returning from Europe to the US, he had 2 choices:
Coach for 100,000 miles
First Class for 80,000 miles
Guess which one I chose? :huh: And I very much doubt they were using Arrow!
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
First, we're discussing revenue trips here. Second, what year/airline/route/program are you referring to?
In most scenarios, revenue and non revenue work in a similar fashion and are tied together. The number of seats/rooms made available for a given night or trip is based on historical data and prospective modeling. That is why there are blackout dates, and multiple tiers of redemption in most programs. Off peak and peak, busy days vs quieter days, holiday travel periods all can trigger widely varying redemptions and availability. Visit my sister in 2 weeks 15K miles, labor day, weekend 30k, Thanksgiving, nothing available. Some carriers will let you avoid blackout based on elite status, or exceedingly high redemptions. It is essentially the same as pricing modeling for ticket or room sales. If an airline has empty seats, and can entice you to redeem banked miles on a seat that they would otherwise fill with a free upgrade to an elite flyer, they win. Very often, it all seems nonsensical, but the reality is yield management science is incredibly complex and the better/larger systems make millions of adjustments on a continuous basis. sitting next to someone who paid $150 less for the same seat may make an individual really unhappy, but it may contribute to another person getting a bonus. Amtrak is a little less strict on its redemption, it has blackout dates, but doesn't do much to eliminate AGR customers from grabbing any available seat/space.
- Status
