Bullet train wrecks.

[Jim G.]

SHANGHAI — At least 11 people have died after two high-speed trains crashed into each other in China's eastern province of Zhejiang on Saturday, causing two carriages to fall off a bridge, state news agency Xinhua said.

Another 89 people have been sent to hospital.

In earlier reports, the Chinese D train was travelling from the capital city of Hangzhou to Wenzhou when it lost power due to a lightning strike, The Telegraph in London reported.

A second train collided from behind, pushing the D train's cars off the bridge about 8:30 p.m., according to the state news agency.

Four cars on the second train also derailed but no further details were available, Xinhua reported

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

This comes as no surprise whatsoever since the thing is in China. From day 1 that system was a major disaster waiting to happen. I'd feel safer riding the oldest trapped out Amtrak Baggage car than anything in China.

 

[George Harris]

A little more info:

The location is stated to be at Wenzhou which is south of Shanghai along the coast, assuming there is not another Wenjhou on a high speed railway line somewhere else. Looking at the China Railway system map on wikimedia, I do not see another Wenjhou. Looking at the same map, the line is shown as being a 200 km/h to 250 km/h speed new line between Ningbo (near Shanghai) and Xaimen as part of a Shanghai to Shenzhen (opposite Hong Kong) line. The second train was stated as being a Beijing to Shanghai train, which makes no sense for a location south of Shanghai. The time was stated as being around 8:30 Saturday evening, which would be 8:30 EST Saturday morning in the US.

I am not going to speculate out loud about what went haywire.

I would rather ride a train in China than an internal airline flight in China.

 

[Spokker]

I would rather ride a train in China than an internal airline flight in China.

I'd just rather not be in China.

The rise of China has been greatly exaggerated.

 

[nolatron]

I am not going to speculate out loud about what went haywire

Few articles are saying lightning struck a train and disabled power on it. A 2nd train came from behind and struck it.

The accident, the first major mishap to hit China's fast-expanding high-speed railway network, took place after one bullet train lost power after being struck by lightning, and was subsequently rear-ended by another train, the official Xinhua agency reported.

China's state-run Xinhua news agency said an older generation bullet train was hit by lightning late Saturday while traveling between the provincial capital of Hangzhou to the city of Wenzhou in the country's eastern Zhejiang province.
They said the disabled train was then hit by a second high-speed train, forcing two of its rail cars off a bridge.

Death toll is up to 32 as well.

 

[tp49]

A little more info:

The location is stated to be at Wenzhou which is south of Shanghai along the coast, assuming there is not another Wenjhou on a high speed railway line somewhere else. Looking at the China Railway system map on wikimedia, I do not see another Wenjhou. Looking at the same map, the line is shown as being a 200 km/h to 250 km/h speed new line between Ningbo (near Shanghai) and Xaimen as part of a Shanghai to Shenzhen (opposite Hong Kong) line. The second train was stated as being a Beijing to Shanghai train, which makes no sense for a location south of Shanghai. The time was stated as being around 8:30 Saturday evening, which would be 8:30 EST Saturday morning in the US.

I am not going to speculate out loud about what went haywire.

I would rather ride a train in China than an internal airline flight in China.

According to Xinhua one of the trains was a Hangzhou to Fuzhou in Fujian Province train and the second (the one that was not disabled) was heading from Beijing to Fuzhou.

Outside of a four hour ATC delay on a flight from Xiamen to Shanghai I never had an issue on the several Chinese domestic flights I have taken. Though twice I was on China HSR train that broke down one from Shanghai to Nanjing and the other from Hangzhou to Shanghai. While very impressive I'm wary of the HSR for some other reasons relating to the scandal surrounding the former HSR chief.

I'd just rather not be in China.

The rise of China has been greatly exaggerated.

Great thing is you never have to be in China. However, the rise of China has not been greatly exaggerated.

 

[LA Resident]

Here's link to latest update, 32 people killed, at least.

http://news.yahoo.com/least-11-dead-trains-collide-eastern-china-155440905.html

Maybe someone here can explain why there wasn't a safety provision to stop all trains in the case of a power outage somewhere along the line?

The latest story said the lightening strike knocked out safety provisions to stop trains, but that doesn't seem to make total sense?

 

[NY Penn]

Here's link to latest update, 32 people killed, at least.

http://news.yahoo.co...-155440905.html

Maybe someone here can explain why there wasn't a safety provision to stop all trains in the case of a power outage somewhere along the line?

The latest story said the lightening strike knocked out safety provisions to stop trains, but that doesn't seem to make total sense?

Well, we know how reliable China's news reports are, so....

 

[Anderson]

*sighs* Napierville. This is Napierville, almost to a "t". 64 years later, but the incident profile is almost identical. Mind you, this isn't to deny the 79 MPH speed limit, but where was the damn ATS with a super-fast train like that?

Edit: To be clear, I suspect that the Chinese aren't using any form of ATS on their HSR lines...which is just plain stupid from top to bottom.

 

[George Harris]

I am not going to speculate out loud about what went haywire

Few articles are saying lightning struck a train and disabled power on it. A 2nd train came from behind and struck it.

The question is why the second train did not stop. It should have under any normal signal and train control system used anywhere. The why for that is what I don't want to make guesses about.

 

[George Harris]

According to Xinhua one of the trains was a Hangzhou to Fuzhou in Fujian Province train and the second (the one that was not disabled) was heading from Beijing to Fuzhou.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Nexis4Jersey]

 

[Anderson]

I am not going to speculate out loud about what went haywire

Few articles are saying lightning struck a train and disabled power on it. A 2nd train came from behind and struck it.

The question is why the second train did not stop. It should have under any normal signal and train control system used anywhere. The why for that is what I don't want to make guesses about.

Well, you've basically got two possibilities:

1) The Chinese aren't using ATS. Incredibly stupid, but might be the case if some dolt decided to cut corners.

2) The ATS failed and they didn't issue a slow order when it went down (say, cutting the top operating speed to 120 MPH or less). Also incredibly stupid, but quite believable...I'd bet on either untrained dispatchers or a very bad mentality in the dispatching office on this one.

In short, someone screwed up royally.

 

[DET63]

If or when they figure out who screwed up, and how (and why), what will that person's/those persons' likely fate be? A date with a firing squad?

 

[LA Resident]

These 3 grafs from NY Times tell you all you didn't really want to know about Chinese safety measures...

Other reports on the site said the ministry was burying the wrecked trains near the site, prompting critics to say that the wreckage should have been carefully examined for causes of the malfunction. The Railway Ministry said the trains contained valuable “national level” technology that could be stolen and thus had to be buried — even though foreign companies have long complained that the technology was actually stolen from their trains.

More confusion emerged over efforts to portray nature as the culprit in the accident. Xinhua reported Saturday that the first train lost power when it was hit by lightning, and national television broadcasts emphasized pictures of lightning storms in the area. But later reports by Xinhua said the supposedly stalled train was under way when it was struck by the other train. Also left unexplained was why railway signals did not stop the second train before it hit the first one.

An editorial titled “No Development Without Safety” on People’s Net, the government-run Web site affiliated with the party’s leading newspaper, People’s Daily, said the Railway Ministry had warned of the risks of lightning in a notice four days before the crash. It said new procedures were needed to prevent accidents. But it noted that these measures had not been put into effect, implying that the railway had no emergency plans in place for trains struck by lightning.

 

[Anderson]

Possibly, but probably not (so long as there wasn't corruption involved...that gets you a date in a heartbeat). More likely a very disgraced firing. That said, if they did plan for ATS and there was a scheme to cut the system and pocket the cash, those squads might be having more dates than a Times' Square hooker on a Friday night.

 

[eagle628]

Possibly, but probably not (so long as there wasn't corruption involved...that gets you a date in a heartbeat). More likely a very disgraced firing. That said, if they did plan for ATS and there was a scheme to cut the system and pocket the cash, those squads might be having more dates than a Times' Square hooker on a Friday night.

Three people fired already, who are "subject to investigation." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/chinese-toddler-rescued-train-crash

 

[Anderson]

Possibly, but probably not (so long as there wasn't corruption involved...that gets you a date in a heartbeat). More likely a very disgraced firing. That said, if they did plan for ATS and there was a scheme to cut the system and pocket the cash, those squads might be having more dates than a Times' Square hooker on a Friday night.

Three people fired already, who are "subject to investigation." http://www.guardian....ued-train-crash

Well, that was quick. Can't wait to see the outcome of this little show.

 

[George Harris]

Someone will be blamed. That is a cultural and political necessity.

Just because someone is charged does not mean that particular person had anything whatsoever to do with the problem. They would simply be the person nearest to the problem that did not have enough clout or information on the higher ups to save their own bacon.

Note in the pictures that the track is ballasted, not concrete slab based.

The location is about edit to correct distance: 603 km = 375 miles by rail south of Shanghai on the line along the coast that is shown as being a 200 to 250 km/h line, so it is not one of the top level high speed lines.

It is not just the Chinese that bury their mistakes. Several years back a Baltic Sea ferry that sank was covered with concrete rather than being pulled up and the problems investigated. The determination to do a detailed analysis of the problems, causes, and how to prevent recurrance seems to be primarily American and those that are willing to or choose to learn from us.

 

[jis]

The determination to do a detailed analysis of the problems, causes, and how to prevent recurrance seems to be primarily American and those that are willing to or choose to learn from us.

Actually the Brits are pretty good at it too. The investigation of the mysterious crashes of Comet 1s come to mind.

*sighs* Napierville. This is Napierville, almost to a "t". 64 years later, but the incident profile is almost identical. Mind you, this isn't to deny the 79 MPH speed limit, but where was the damn ATS with a super-fast train like that?

That would be "Naperville" on the CB&Q (now BNSF) triple track railroad heading west from Chicago.

Edit: To be clear, I suspect that the Chinese aren't using any form of ATS on their HSR lines...which is just plain stupid from top to bottom.

According to their literature they are using an ATS system design based on ERTMS 2 (actually a version of ERTMS 2 produced in China ostensibly under license from Siemens, with "improvements"). The two questions in my mind are:

1. Is it deployed on this second tier HSR? Maybe it is maybe it isn't. I don;t know. Incidentally, before we go all high and mighty on criticizing China, train operate in the UK at 200kph on many segments protected only by cab signal and warning system, no ATS. So if that bothers you stop riding trains in the UK too.

2. Don't know what the "improvements" incorporated in ERTMS 2 are. If said improvement includes removal of fail safe features for failure modes, to improve "efficiency", that could lead to such events too.

An ATS system is supposed to fail to a safe mode. I.e. failure will lead to automatic speed reduction and eventually fail to "stop" mode. That is why absence of any pulse code in continuous coded track circuit based systems codes restricting speed.

Anyway, as stated by others the lack of transparency in China will probably cause the results of the investigation to be not published except in a very whitewashed form. So we'll probably never know for sure what happened.

 

[George Harris]

The determination to do a detailed analysis of the problems, causes, and how to prevent recurrance seems to be primarily American and those that are willing to or choose to learn from us.

Actually the Brits are pretty good at it too. The investigation of the mysterious crashes of Comet 1s come to mind.

Very true. Failed to give credit where credit is due.

The Chinese government is circling the wagons. From Rueters:

"The major theme for the Wenzhou bullet train case from now on will be known as 'in the face of great tragedy, there's great love'," the department said, according to a copy of the directives posted on a web site called the "ministry of truth", that regularly posts copies of government orders.

"Ministry of Truth" George Orwell's 1984 in action.

"Do not question, do not elaborate."
Reporters with state media who saw the directives confirmed to Reuters the propaganda department's media guidance on the crash.

The department also told media not to "investigate the cause of the accident", and reminded journalists that "the word from the authorities is all-prevailing".

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, I think that the coverup and lack of any transparency is even more damning than the original incident in my mind.

 

[George Harris]

This is a new line. The station for Wenzhou is Wenzhou South and is on the south side of the city. It appears that one or both trains were running late looking at the schedule. The departure times at Wenzhou South were supposed to be:

.D381....19:08

D3123....19:38

.D301....19:44

D3115....19:59

D3121....20:25

Thus, train D301 was supposed to be in front of the train it hit. On the other hand, if on time it should have been close behind train D3123.

On the assumption that the vehicles are the same or close to the Shinkansen cars in dimensions, that is 25.0 meters over couplers, 24.5 m over the body and 17.50 m truck centers, it wold appears reaonable to say that the deck of the structure was around 18 meters above the ground, that is, about 60 feet.

A look at google maps was insufficient to determine with any assurance the location of the crash, but a location a few km north of Wenzhou South station might fit what is seen in the pictures. This would make all trains involved behind schedule. Not by much by Amtrak long distance standards, but not acceptable for what is supposed to be the nation's best foot forward.

 

[Anderson]

*sighs* As much of a fan as I am of HSR, I'd like to see a very nasty international bad note dropped on this horse-you-know-what (i.e. "Yet another Chinese coverup").

Also, George, I'm willing to bet that the ATS probably wasn't properly tested out. It's probable that they gave some of the lines the bum's rush in what could politely be called "over eagerness".

 

[tp49]

George, delays and equipment problems have been a massive issue on CHR services particularly on the recently opened Shanghai-Beijing service. Having been on both CHR and Taiwan HSR the Taiwanese operation is far better run than its mainland counterpart.

I am also willing to speculate that the Chinese government will find a way to tie the failure into the impending bribery trial of the former head of the Railway Ministry and make him the big scapegoat for everything. As they say it's just another day in the PRC.