G
Guest_Gingee_*
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No internet on the train. We bought a one month service through Verizon. It works through our phone. We don't always get service though.
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That would be between Trinidad, CO and Raton, NM, where the tunnel is. It's the one of the most fascinating views.
Ryan
Court Jester
No. You really didn't notice it, remember you're in a ridiculously heavy railcar. Nothing to be concerned about at all.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Gingee, trains have been going down Cajon pass safely for over a hundred years. I don't think you're going to be the first to lose it.
January 15th, 1953, is the precise date the FedEx ran away.
Three of them, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy (California Zephyr, the Northern Pacific (North Coast Limited), the Great Northern (Empire Builder), were connected through James J. "Empire Builder" Hill. In about 1970 they merged together to form the Burlington Northern.
Lastly, you have the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe. They were owned by a company called Santa Fe Industries, a huge industrial conglomerate of which, amazingly, the ATSF was really but a small part. Sometime in the 80s, Santa Fe Industries bought Southern Pacific Company (owner of the Southern Pacific Railroad), creating Santa Fe Pacific Corporation. However, the ICC took a dim view of this merger, and forced Santa Fe Pacific to sell Southern Pacific.
In 1995, Santa Fe Pacific Corporation bought the Burlington Northern. The STB's perspective on that was somewhat brighter, and the resulting company was briefly known as Burlington Northern & Santa Fe Railway Company. In 2005, they officially changed their name to BNSF Railway.
In 2009 they became a small part of the gigantic investment company, Berkshire Hathaway.
You know, I think the last true runaway passenger train in the U.S. was, in fact, the Federal Express when it lost its brakes and flew into Washington Union Station. It left a GG1 in what is now the food court. Not only that, but the very GG-1 pulling it would run for another 28 years after being cut in half and lifted out of the basement. That's how long ago that was.
January 15th, 1953, is the precise date the FedEx ran away.
A story of four railroads:
Three of them, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy (California Zephyr, the Northern Pacific (North Coast Limited), the Great Northern (Empire Builder), were connected through James J. "Empire Builder" Hill. In about 1970 they merged together to form the Burlington Northern.
Lastly, you have the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe. They were owned by a company called Santa Fe Industries, a huge industrial conglomerate of which, amazingly, the ATSF was really but a small part. Sometime in the 80s, Santa Fe Industries bought Southern Pacific Company (owner of the Southern Pacific Railroad), creating Santa Fe Pacific Corporation. However, the ICC took a dim view of this merger, and forced Santa Fe Pacific to sell Southern Pacific.
In 1995, Santa Fe Pacific Corporation bought the Burlington Northern. The STB's perspective on that was somewhat brighter, and the resulting company was briefly known as Burlington Northern & Santa Fe Railway Company. In 2005, they officially changed their name to BNSF Railway.
In 2009 they became a small part of the gigantic investment company, Berkshire Hathaway.
Edgefan
Service Attendant
Excellent sinopsis GML. As far as the Cajon, I've always been asleep. Waking up in time to grab a quick breakfast as my arrivals into LAX have ALWAYS been early. As far a grades, Amtrak engineers are very familiar with them, Sierras, Cascades, Sand Point, Glacier and many others. The only thing I notice is my loss of hearing with the altitiudes. :lol:
Good info, GML. You presented more business details than I knew about BNSF.
About the name of the PRR train which crashed into WAS, I know the name has changed around through the years esp if you count the Amtrak version. But I think--that is, think,not know-that it was called merely the Federal at that time, not the Federal Express. I do not have time now to find if have a 1953 timetable.
On my way out the door.
wayman
Engineer
Outside America, there was the runaway rake of passenger cars in South Africa a month or two ago. But that was a totally different situation: passenger cars sitting still without an engine which started rolling, not a train in motion which lost control. And while the general principles that one should always apply the brakes, one should always inspect the brakes, yadda yadda, apply, this was in a foreign country with completely different rules and standards, and it was on a tourist train rather than a fully-fledged railroad. Many, many, many differences, and as far as safety standards go the American rules are really, really high.
There are stories of trains losing control coming down grades -- the Old 97, for instance, in 1903 -- but note that this, and most other examples of such, were over 100 years ago.
G
Guest
Guest
So over 50 years since a runaway passenger train in the US. Compare that to all the runaway Toyotas (either by design fault, idiot operators, or scammers) and while not fatal that Northwest flight that overshot MSP back in the fall.
Excellent info about the BNSF, GML. It was indeed 1970 when the Burlington, GN, and NP merged. An interesting side note to all this is that part of the reason behind the merger was to consolidate the trackage of the GN and NP (and their joint venture, the Spokane, Portland, and Seattle (SP&S) Railroad) in Spokane into one set of tracks so that the remaining tracks could be cleared away for Expo '74, Spokane's World's Fair. A prominent part of Riverfront Park, the former site of Expo '74, is the Clock Tower, which was part of the Great Northern train station. There were three passenger stations in Spokane at one time, the Great Northern station, the Northern Pacific Station, and Union Station, which served the Union Pacific and Milwaukee lines. Union Station and the Great Northern Station, minus the Clock Tower, were demolished in order to make room for the Expo site. The Northern Pacific station survived and is now Spokane's Amtrak station. In my humble opinion, the NP station was the least impressive structure of the three.
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CNW
Service Attendant
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- 219
Doesn't anyone remember this? It has been on the History Channel and other programs as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_train_disaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_train_disaster
PetalumaLoco
Conductor
leemell
Conductor
That road is Interstate 15 which has subsumed that part of US 66 for 40 years or more. My grandmother had a ranch behind where the Chevron station is now just off the Summit. Used to go out can camp on the ranch in the Spring and Fall many times.
CNW
Service Attendant
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I was reading about the 2 railroad men who died in the Duffy Street accident and it says there is a "cross at the loop" with a plaque dedicated to them. At first I thought it was on Cajon Pass and tried to remember if I had seen it. Further reading says it is on the Tehachapi Loop which is further away and I thought it odd they didn't put it on Cajon.....
sunchaser
Conductor
We usually went to Stoddard's Well, another spot my parents called 'the slab' & also 'the shack' way out by Calico Ghost Town. I'm sure they are all gone now, there are houses at Stoddard's Well. There was really nothing out there-we packed everything in & out.
G
Guest_Gingee_*
Guest
UPDATE - I could hardly sleep last night (for a couple reasons). One was I thought our train would be headed downwards (like a ride). Well around 4:45 I decided to take my shower and get dressed. I don't know how long it takes to go over the pass (someone said 20 minutes) but after I got back, we were pulling into a town and the pass was over. I did hear the brakes (I think) while taking my shower and such but it was relatively smooth (another reason I thought good time to take a shower since they would be going slower).
We pulled into LA a hour early (7:15). Well walked over to Olvero (spelling?) street. A little early so came back and sat in the beautiful courtyard. That is the prettiest train station I think I have ever been in. Now get this - my daughter flew to LA. Thought the train was boring. Well they were a hour and half late out of our town due to fog. Then I was able to reschedule a little later reservation. Well, they were delayed there due to thunderstorms. I guess it was a wild ride. They came in four hours late. We spent from 7:15 to 2:00 at the train station so we could all go to the hotel together. We took the flybus from the train station to LAX.
So the train wins!!!!! LOL
We pulled into LA a hour early (7:15). Well walked over to Olvero (spelling?) street. A little early so came back and sat in the beautiful courtyard. That is the prettiest train station I think I have ever been in. Now get this - my daughter flew to LA. Thought the train was boring. Well they were a hour and half late out of our town due to fog. Then I was able to reschedule a little later reservation. Well, they were delayed there due to thunderstorms. I guess it was a wild ride. They came in four hours late. We spent from 7:15 to 2:00 at the train station so we could all go to the hotel together. We took the flybus from the train station to LAX.
So the train wins!!!!! LOL
SouthernServesTheSouth
Service Attendant
When we were on the SWC last May, we were followed by a White SUV on the adjacent road. The driver would stop occassionaly and take pictures of the train. He had a dog also, and would let him out and have him run behind the SUV for a quarter mile and then stop and pick him up. This was while we we were west bound. When we came back east bound he was waiting for us and once again followed the train. I can't remember where this was exactly, somewhere in NM probably. Has anyone else seen this guy?
George Harris
Engineer
It was on Cajon Pass, but not on the line used by Amtrak. It was on a track built in the late 1960's between Palmdale CA and their yard at Colton CA. I think the length of new lie was around 78 miles, but am not certain. The southern part of the line does go through Cajon Pass, more or less paralleling the ex Santa Fe (now BNSF) line used by Amtrak, but it is not the same line, so this runaway overweight freight train was not on the same line used by Amtrak.
The downgrade track on the the BNSF route is at a grade of 2.2%. It is long,as there is near 20 miles at that grade.
As said earlier, both Raton and Glorietta passes have steeper grades, but they are not near as long. Glorietta has about 5 miles of 3.0% grade on the south side. Raton Pass, the actual summit being near Wootton, has around 5 miles of 3.2% to 3.38% on the south side and 10 miles of 2.5% to 3.5% grade on the north side.
Al the above is from the condensed profiles in their employee timetables, so the lengths of grades are somewhat approximate.
The employee timetables contain relatively lengthy insturctions on safe operation on these grade, for the most part applicible to freight trains.
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CNW
Service Attendant
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Does anyone recall seeing the cross at the loop which was dedicated to the two railroaders who lost their lives on the Duffy Street incident. It is on Tehachapi Loop which I gather is somewhere else from what I can tell from a map no where near Cajon..
flowergirl
Train Attendant
- Joined
- May 17, 2010
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- 16
Are there any differences in the length and steepness of the Cajon Pass grade going east on the train versus west?
Right now, there are triple tracks along Cajon Pass. The last one just opened last year or two.
Hate to break this to you all, but the ruling grade on the original line (formerly called "South" track, now main 3, I think) is 3%. The ruling grade on what was formerly called the "North" track, now basically the route of mains 1 & 2 is 2.2%. Basically the North track (mains 1 & 2 now) is longer and less steep -- it is one with Sullivan's Curve -- and splits away from the South track at Cajon Siding and returns a little bit west of Summit (MP 57X).
It is all CTC controlled and any train can use any track, and they use all mains either direction, mostly by the type of traffic. Short trains with a low weight to power ratio or weight to brake ratio use the South track, usually. They usually (not always) route Amtrak on the steeper South track both directions, because it has a relatively low weight to power/weight to brake ratio.
At 3%, it is one of the steeper mainline RR grades in the US. Of course, this looks like nothing compared to highway grades, which are routinely twice that (6%) and more.
Chances are the Southwest Chief did use the 3% main 3, but may not have.
The Duffy Street wreck (aka, "The Potash Cannonball") was on the (former SP, now UP) Palmdate Cutoff, built in the mid-1960s, which parallels the BNSF mains 1 & 2 for the most part. It's ruling grade is roughly 2%, too, not the 3% of BNSF's Main 3. The wreck was an overweight runaway freight train (as pointed by Mr. Harris) derailing on a curve at the base of Cajon Pass in San Bernardino.
With BNSF now having 3 main tracks, and the SP/UP Palmdale Cutoff, there are 4 tracks through most of Cajon.
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George Harris
Engineer
The following is reading from an employee timetable condensed profile. Soem of these things are far less than precise in elevations given. A track chart would be better, and grinding through topographic maps better still, but I do not have the track charts, and an insufficiency of both time and curiosity about this particular issue to work my way through the maps.
East end of steep part of grade: Frost at milepost 38, jsut west of Victorville, elevation about 2700 feet
grade of 1.55% to 1.60% listed between there and Summit, which is at milepost 56, elevation about 3820 feet.
begin grade down here:
grade of 2.20% for most of the distance except 1.97% and 1.22% near the bottom to an aelevation of about 1050 feet at milepost 81, just east of San Bernandino.
The 3.00% segmetn on the one track does not appear in this condensed profile.
There are 5 pages of instructions for operation on the grade in the employee timetable.
JAChooChoo
Service Attendant
In case I missed it,grade percentages measure the rise or fall per 100 feet of length. 2% is 4 feet per the length of a football field.
oldtimer
OBS Chief
Is this new math? When I played High School football 45+ years ago my football field was 100 yards or 300 feet. Thus it would be a 6 foot rise in that length for a 2% grade.
:unsure: :blink: :unsure:
edit for fat arthritic fingers, they don't work as quick as the mind (I know that they are really slow).
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