Chicago-Flordia Auto Train Concept?

[AmtrakFan]

Hi Everyone,

I was thinking while talking with a Friend about Amtrak problems and new innovated ideas. He suggested a Chicago-Flordia Auto Train Concept, we all know it would need $$$ but would it work out you think? I can already think of some issues

1. Land Space close to Chicago (That is always a issue)

2. CSX Track Capacity

3. Equipment It would cost a lot to get new Autoracks

4. Timing you can do that drive in about 30 to 35 Hours on I-65 I am including a night in the Hotel and other stops

Any Suggestions?

 

[gswager]

There was a topic about that before. Biggest problem is slow tracks (freight traffic, single tracks, or aging).

 

[Superliner Diner]

There was at one time, during the days of the private Auto Train corporation, a Louisville, KY - Florida Auto Train.

The concept would work, however if it were possible to run such a train, then it would also be possible to run a conventional passenger-only train along that route.

The problem with an Auto Train is that it is going to have to run only between two set points, just as the current AT runs between Lorton and Sanford.

Would Chicago provide enough ridership to justify this train? The further south you make the northern terminus, the more people can benefit from this service. That is akin to the existing AT, which originates and terminates in the Washington, DC area. If it were to have its northern terminus in, say, the North Jersey/New York area, it would miss the population base in Philly, Baltimore, Washington, and everywhere else to the south of that northern terminus, because people are not going to drive north to go south, and vice versa.

So that is why Louisville was a good terminus for the former private AT. People could drive there from other Midwestern cities without going out of their way.

 

[George Harris]

I have thought at times that Louisville may have been both a little too far south and a little too far west. Somewhere a little NORTH of Cincinatti would have been about the same distance from Chicago and closer to Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, even Pittsburg and Buffalo. the only city disadvantaged by such a change would be St. Louis. The current AT terminal is good for Washington Baltimore, Harrisburg, Wilmington, Philly, New York, kind of stretching it for north of New York. A Chicago and environs, even with St. Louis, Louisville, etc. does not even come close to the same population base.

Just look back at the contrast between east coast to Florida and Midwest to Florida streamliners in the 50's. Compare the size of the well known City of Miami / South Wind / Dixie Flagler and the lesser lights such as the Royal Palm and Southland, with the east coast trains: Florida Special, sometime in more than one section, Champion, with east coast and west coast as separate trains, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and several secondary runs that could be carrying several coaches and multiple sleepers as well.

I would suspect that a second east coast Auto Train say 4 hours or so off from the current train could be filled faster than you could fill one midwest Auto Train.

Then, we get around to tracks: The current Auto Train, when CSX cooperates can hold a stead 70 mph for probably over 80% of the distance north of Jacksonville on a fairly straight and level railroad. In general, you are beating driving time for all but the drive steady except for gas and grab a burger to go crowd, and most of the Autotrain clientelle does not travel that way. From either Louisville or Cincinatti, you are running on tracks where being able to even get to 70 won't happen much, running on curaceous tracks through the Appalachians until you get well south of Atlanta or Birmingham. The old South Wind route south of Montgomery is unsignaled (always has been) and currently a 40 mph railroad. Both the old Dixie Flagler route and the Royal Palm route south of Atlanta are heavily trafficed and not that fast, either. It was no accident that the Midwest to Florida trains did not have near the average speed of their east coast counterparts.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Another issue, whether there is a second East Coast AT or a Midwest-Florida AT, is how to handle the extra capacity in Florida. Either Sanford would have to be greatly expanded to accommodate the new train, or another location would have to become the secondary southern AT terminal. Consider now that when the one existing AT arrives very late, you have the terminal area full of both arriving and departing passengers. The process of returning all vehicles to their owners following a trip has to be completed before they can begin accepting vehicles for the next trip.

Therefore even if the trains were scheduled 4 hours apart, if the first one were to be a few hours late it would cause bedlam in the terminal. Both trains arriving late would result in the passengers and vehicles of FOUR trips (2 arrival, 2 departure) all in the station area at the same time.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Sounds like you would need either separate arrival and departure terminals, or separate terminals for each route. I woudn't want to set up a second location because then you lose the "economy of scale" benefits to be gained by not having two complete maintenance facilities, cleaning facilities, and all that goes along with it, rather than simply enlarging slightly what already exists. SFA has a well-deserved reputation as an excellent maintenance and repair facility - you don't want to mess with that. Silver Service trains frequently make short (even up to an hour or so sometimes) stops there for temporary repairs enroute to New York or Miami. There may be enough room at SFA to expand to be the terminus for another AutoTrain route, especially since they no longer use the old fairly large SFD terminal that was condemned but is directly adjacent to the SFA terminal property. Sanford is a pretty big, long (CSX) yard area, and something might be able to be worked out if it genuinely looked like it was economically feasible to run another train. But I'd have to agree that the (MUCH) bigger problem would be trackage and signalling and overall track speeds once you head West from JAX, or Northwest from JAX or SAV toward ATL and then points West and North from there. It would take a huge investment in infrastructure to upgrade all that trackage before you could get such a train up to a high enough average speed to make it attractive as an alternative to driving. And smooth enough that it wouldn't require a large team of mechanics several hours at the end of each trip to reinstall all the hardware and spare parts that had been vibrated loose from all those vehicles during the trip. :lol: :lol:

 

[dan72]

I found it interesting that in the book 'American by Rail' the author indicated that Amtrak was looking to replicate the Auto Train format on several other routes. Although this may have been discussed at one point, it seems that may have been a pipe dream at best. The equipment investment for a route such as the SWC or EB would be astronomical....

Dan

 

[amtrak_russ]

i would say that chicago is not a bad northern terminus. it can be easly ccessed from dtroit, milwalkee, and other midwestern cities. the only sissue is you first need a regular ld train from chicago. so i say see how sucessful a regular long distance train would be then experiment with a autorack service. i think also you can have a intermedite point such louisville or nashville to add autoracks on as well as take them off. this route is a lot longer than the current auto train. so a halfway point would be justified.

 

[MrFSS]

Here is an old postcard view of the Louisville - Florida Auto-Train from the 70's or 80's? Did they have some type of buffet in the dinning car?

 

[Superliner Diner]

i would say that chicago is not a bad northern terminus. it can be easly ccessed from dtroit, milwalkee, and other midwestern cities. the only sissue is you first need a regular ld train from chicago. so i say see how sucessful a regular long distance train would be then experiment with a autorack service. i think also you can have a intermedite point such louisville or nashville to add autoracks on as well as take them off. this route is a lot longer than the current auto train. so a halfway point would be justified.

Of course when you say "Chicago" though, one cannot think Chicago Union Station here. It would have to be a location with good freeway access, room for the necessary yard and maintenance facilities (or maintenance could be shared with those near CUS), yard space for the auto racks to load/unload, and a terminal facility similar to that in Lorton, VA. So more than likely this "Chicago" facility would end up out in the suburbs.

If the Chicago area were to be a northern AT terminus, a second midwest location such as Louisville or Nashville might work. But then you could not also have a second Florida location. Logistics of working out the possible city pairs for all of the vehicles being carried would be a nightmare.

As for other possible AT services, the Southwest Chief route was one possibility, as was the Coast Starlight route. For the latter, Seattle-Los Angeles was to be the city pair, although this would totally bypass cities like Portland, OR and the SF Bay Area. I'd propose that it should only run between the Portland area and the Bay Area, and let people drive the rest of the way if they have to.

 

[amtrak_russ]

Of course when you say "Chicago" though, one cannot think Chicago Union Station here. It would have to be a location with good freeway access, room for the necessary yard and maintenance facilities (or maintenance could be shared with those near CUS), yard space for the auto racks to load/unload, and a terminal facility similar to that in Lorton, VA. So more than likely this "Chicago" facility would end up out in the suburbs.

I agree but i tought of a place in downtown chicago where this could work. if you are familar with lasalle street station there is vacant land between the metra tracks and the river. that used to be a part of the stations yard and it would be ideal for it. roosevelt rd has access to the interstate.

 

[MrFSS]

Of course when you say "Chicago" though, one cannot think Chicago Union Station here. It would have to be a location with good freeway access, room for the necessary yard and maintenance facilities (or maintenance could be shared with those near CUS), yard space for the auto racks to load/unload, and a terminal facility similar to that in Lorton, VA. So more than likely this "Chicago" facility would end up out in the suburbs.

I agree but i tought of a place in downtown chicago where this could work. if you are familar with lasalle street station there is vacant land between the metra tracks and the river. that used to be a part of the stations yard and it would be ideal for it. roosevelt rd has access to the interstate.

That's a great idea. Here's a picture I took of that area last year.

 

[amtrak_russ]

That's a great idea. Here's a picture I took of that area last year.

I agree it is close ta union station's yard. all they have to do is proceed to 21st street and back her up toward lasalle street.

 

[AmtrakFan]

Russ,

Not a bad suggestion but one problem, I remember reading in the Paper that they wanted to turn into a delvopment area. On a Personal Note, that is right by my Aunt's Place, I can see CUS, La Salle St. and St. Charles Airline

 

[Bill C]

Here is an old postcard view of the Louisville - Florida Auto-Train from the 70's or 80's? Did they have some type of buffet in the dinning car?

I took the Lorton-Sanford Auto-Train in the 70s with my family. The dining service was a buffet on that route, as I remember waiting in the 'chow line' for dinner.

 

[frj1983]

Russ,Not a bad suggestion but one problem, I remember reading in the Paper that they wanted to turn into a delvopment area. On a Personal Note, that is right by my Aunt's Place, I can see CUS, La Salle St. and St. Charles Airline

I believe that you are correct AmtrakFan,

I'm almost sure that the City of Chicago owns that land and they "ain't never gonna give it up" for a new Autotrain service! Mayor daley seems to be quite insistent on the usage of this former "railroad" space to turn a profit for the City

 

[had8ley]

Sounds like you would need either separate arrival and departure terminals, or separate terminals for each route. I woudn't want to set up a second location because then you lose the "economy of scale" benefits to be gained by not having two complete maintenance facilities, cleaning facilities, and all that goes along with it, rather than simply enlarging slightly what already exists. SFA has a well-deserved reputation as an excellent maintenance and repair facility - you don't want to mess with that. Silver Service trains frequently make short (even up to an hour or so sometimes) stops there for temporary repairs enroute to New York or Miami. There may be enough room at SFA to expand to be the terminus for another AutoTrain route, especially since they no longer use the old fairly large SFD terminal that was condemned but is directly adjacent to the SFA terminal property. Sanford is a pretty big, long (CSX) yard area, and something might be able to be worked out if it genuinely looked like it was economically feasible to run another train. But I'd have to agree that the (MUCH) bigger problem would be trackage and signalling and overall track speeds once you head West from JAX, or Northwest from JAX or SAV toward ATL and then points West and North from there. It would take a huge investment in infrastructure to upgrade all that trackage before you could get such a train up to a high enough average speed to make it attractive as an alternative to driving. And smooth enough that it wouldn't require a large team of mechanics several hours at the end of each trip to reinstall all the hardware and spare parts that had been vibrated loose from all those vehicles during the trip. :lol: :lol:

\

Well said; and who is going to pay for all the track improvements BEFORE the first train runs ???

CSXT is brilliant at playing the old shell game and coming out a winner every time.

 

[Guest]

Alot, maybe most, folks from the upper midwest like to winter in the southwest. Maybe a Chicago to Phoenix or Vegas Autotrain would make more sense than a Chicago-Florida route.

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone freight]

Alot, maybe most, folks from the upper midwest like to winter in the southwest. Maybe a Chicago to Phoenix or Vegas Autotrain would make more sense than a Chicago-Florida route.

We need a direct Chicago-Florida regular intercity service (preferably via Atlanta) before we need an Auto Train on that route. OBS gone freight... :blink:

 

[frj1983]

Alot, maybe most, folks from the upper midwest like to winter in the southwest. Maybe a Chicago to Phoenix or Vegas Autotrain would make more sense than a Chicago-Florida route.

We need a direct Chicago-Florida regular intercity service (preferably via Atlanta) before we need an Auto Train on that route. OBS gone freight... :blink:

I totally agree,

even though I'm not sure that all the trackage is usable for such!

Do you have a suggested routing? I'm just curious what would be the best route.

 

[George Harris]

We need a direct Chicago-Florida regular intercity service (preferably via Atlanta) before we need an Auto Train on that route. OBS gone freight... :blink:

I totally agree,

even though I'm not sure that all the trackage is usable for such!

Do you have a suggested routing? I'm just curious what would be the best route.

Here is a quick summary of the old and current Chicago to Florida routes:

The three former 24 hours Chicago to Jacksonville routes:

City of Miami: ICRR-CofG-ACL: Chicago-Fulton KY-Birmingham-Columbus GA-Jacksonville-Miami the fastest of them all. No longer possible. two segments abandoned, and the remaining ICRR/GM&O out of Fulton KY is a short line that no longer has signals.

South Wind: PRR-L&N-ACL: Chicago-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Mongtomery-Jacksonville-Miami: more or less the Amtrak Floridian: the track is all still there, except PRR Chicago to Indinapolis where an alternate is available, but a lot of work is needed. Indianapolis to Louisville, complete re-rail. Montgomery to Waycross is now 40 mph, and need lots of work to get back up to 59 mph, which is all it ever was. Louisiville to Montgomery has capacity problems. A few more sidings, maybe some double track segments, mostly restoration where it had been in the past between Louisiville and Montgomery plus the rail work north of Louisiville, plus, south of Montgomery a lot of tie and ballast, and probably quite a bit of rail between there and Waycross could probably see something close to the old South Wind schedule possible again.

Dixie Flagler: C&EI-L&N-NC&StL-ACL: Chicago-Evansville-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami. the shortest route, but always the tightest schedule. This is all still mainline, but heavily congested, and even without the congestion, reduction in superelevation on the very curvey ex-NC&StL and other lines means that the 1950's speeds can no longer be achieved. Even though all still main line, this would be more expensive to get back to its former running time than the South Wind route. Quite a bit of second track on lines that never had a second track, some curve realignments, etc. would be needed.

Other Florida routes

The Royal Palm (Southern) and the Southland (L&N) both ran as day trains south of Cincinatti with a gathering of late departure overnights from Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland. These were two nights out trains with early second morning arrivals at Jacksonville. These routes also had night trains that were similar in elapsed time. They never approached the ridership of the fast three. Both these routes are still available, and still main lines into Jacksonville, and would probably be no more than a few hours slower than their former best times, although the southern part of the Southland's direct route to Tampa and St. Pete has long ago turned into trails and swamps.

George

 

[frj1983]

We need a direct Chicago-Florida regular intercity service (preferably via Atlanta) before we need an Auto Train on that route. OBS gone freight... :blink:

I totally agree,

even though I'm not sure that all the trackage is usable for such!

Do you have a suggested routing? I'm just curious what would be the best route.

Here is a quick summary of the old and current Chicago to Florida routes:

The three former 24 hours Chicago to Jacksonville routes:

City of Miami: ICRR-CofG-ACL: Chicago-Fulton KY-Birmingham-Columbus GA-Jacksonville-Miami the fastest of them all. No longer possible. two segments abandoned, and the remaining ICRR/GM&O out of Fulton KY is a short line that no longer has signals.

South Wind: PRR-L&N-ACL: Chicago-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Mongtomery-Jacksonville-Miami: more or less the Amtrak Floridian: the track is all still there, except PRR Chicago to Indinapolis where an alternate is available, but a lot of work is needed. Indianapolis to Louisville, complete re-rail. Montgomery to Waycross is now 40 mph, and need lots of work to get back up to 59 mph, which is all it ever was. Louisiville to Montgomery has capacity problems. A few more sidings, maybe some double track segments, mostly restoration where it had been in the past between Louisiville and Montgomery plus the rail work north of Louisiville, plus, south of Montgomery a lot of tie and ballast, and probably quite a bit of rail between there and Waycross could probably see something close to the old South Wind schedule possible again.

Dixie Flagler: C&EI-L&N-NC&StL-ACL: Chicago-Evansville-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville. the shortest route, but always the tightest schedule. This is all still mainline, but heavily congested, and even without the congestion reduction in superelevation on the very curvey ex NC&StL, and other lines means that the 1950's speeds can no longer be achieved. Even though all still main line, this would be more expensive to get back to its former running time than the South Wind route. Quite a bit of second track on lines that never had a second track, some curve realignments, etc. would be needed.

Other Florida routes

The Royal Palm (Southern) and the Southland (L&N) both ran as day trains south of Cincinatti with a gathering of late departure overnights from Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland. These were two nights out trains with early second morning arrivals at Jacksonville. These routes also had night trains that were similar in elapsed time. They never approached the ridership of the fast three. Both these routes are still available, and still main lines into Jacksonville, and would probably be no more than a few hours slower than their former best times, although the southern part of the Southland's direct route to Tampa and St. Pete has long ago turned into trails and swamps.

George

Thanks for sharing that George! It helped clarify things for me.

 

[Guest]

Is there any progress? Chicago/Florida

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Is there any progress? Chicago/Florida

Not that I know of.

At the railroad, only when you see it is when you can believe it! And we'll leave it at that. :lol:

OBS gone freight...

 

[Russell]

The Auto Train surely i s convenient for New Yorkers ( & New Jersians) LOR - SFO. The demand would make a profit, adding a point north, but the logistics probably would be a nightmare, with two trains simulataneously at LOR (or SFO). The upstart costs are unimanginable as well, with a profit years off. I read that the Auto Train is Amtrak's single most profitable route today, ensuring bright, shiny stainless steel cars, great food (in first class -- roomette/bedroom) and pretty dependable service. There is definitely a market for a 60+ mph train from Chicago and further north, but the problems I read about here are an education. It's too bad. Traveling by train can be a really fun part of the overall vacation experience. I really love the trip on the AutoTrain, bringing back memories of our Chicago - Orlando area route when I was a child in the 1950's. Oddly, I was told that the private investors never made a profit, but Amtrak, unbelievably is doing so. Does anyone know why that was case?