Chicago to Dubuque by 2014? The Black Hawk return update?

[afigg]

You missed a zero. It was $750K. The $1.4M is net of purchase price and refurb AFAIU.
There are those two Talgos going abegging in Wisconsin, no?

Those costs make more sense. As for the Wisconsin Talgos, they are going to come up in these railroad forums every time there is a question about getting rolling stock for a service. Despite the rather significant issue of arranging for a service facility. Perhaps someone should make a railfan t-shirt that says "Free the Wisconsin Talgos!"

On a somewhat more serious idea, if Illinois Democratic leaders want to poke WI Gov. Walker in the ribs a little, IL DOT could team with WA to either buy or lease the 2 Talgo trainsets from Talgo once the legal disputes between Talgo and WI are resolved. IL would lease the Talgo trainsets for the Black Hawk service and run them until mid 2017 when most of the new bi-levels should have been delivered. Arrange for Amtrak to provide space for servicing the Talgos in Chicago. Then the Talgos are transferred to WA in 2017 to expand Cascades service upon the completion of all the HSIPR project. WA gets the 2 sets under a lease with Talgo with an option to buy arrangement. See, problem solved!

 

[Nathanael]

Well, while the Quad Cities train will terminate on the Illinois side of the Mississippi, the Blackhawk will terminate in Dubuque, Iowa, just like the Illinois supported trains terminate in St. Louis.

That's nice.

...Ah, I see, the City of Dubuque is funding it. I'm a little worried about who's going to fund the rail renovations on the Iowa side of the river, though. I suppose, then, that the Black Hawk will actually travel due south on its way from Savannah, IL to Dubuque as it crosses the Mississippi? Funny route, that

 

[Nathanael]

Well, while the Quad Cities train will terminate on the Illinois side of the Mississippi, the Blackhawk will terminate in Dubuque, Iowa, just like the Illinois supported trains terminate in St. Louis.

That's nice.

...Ah, I see, the City of Dubuque is funding it. I'm a little worried about who's going to fund the rail renovations on the Iowa side of the river, though. I suppose, then, that the Black Hawk will actually travel due south on its way from Savannah, IL to Dubuque as it crosses the Mississippi? Funny route, that

...although it does make it awfully easy to continue from Dubuque to the Twin Cities.

 

[Nathanael]

No, OK, I just rechecked this -- the planned route *is* to go along the BNSF from Galena to East Dubuque (as I would have expected), and then to cross the bridge into Dubuque.

None of the renderings for the "Dubuque Intermodal Transportation Center" appear to include trains coming across the bridge. Lovely. I hope someone gets their act together before construction.

And I really wonder whether Illinois is actually going to pay for the bridge crossing improvements. I wouldn't be surprised to see an East Dubuque station.

 

[railiner]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No, OK, I just rechecked this -- the planned route *is* to go along the BNSF from Galena to East Dubuque (as I would have expected), and then to cross the bridge into Dubuque.
None of the renderings for the "Dubuque Intermodal Transportation Center" appear to include trains coming across the bridge. Lovely. I hope someone gets their act together before construction.

And I really wonder whether Illinois is actually going to pay for the bridge crossing improvements. I wouldn't be surprised to see an East Dubuque station.

The BNSF route is the ex-Burlington I assume? So it's not all ex-IC, which would be CN.

 

[OldZephyr]

The East Dubuque Station was a stop on the former Burlington's Chicago to Twin Cities Route. The Blackhawk used and will use the former Illinois Central route. There may have been an IC station in East Dubuque at one time, but it was well before Amtrak.

The old Black Hawk run by Amtrak did stop at East Dubuque, IL. Note that the IC and the CB&Q share tracks through most of East Dubuque. In fact, I believe it's the CB&Q that had trackage rights on the IC from the junction of the IC line coming west from Galena (Portage?) to where the IC tracks diverge to go into the tunnel that leads to the bridge across the Mississippi.

Here's a view that purports to show where the East Dubuque stations were: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=213041250395756644804.0004ad2398331093e317b

 

[PaulM]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

 

[railiner]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

Zephyr Rocket? Never heard about that one. Which route did it run?

 

[railiner]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

Zephyr Rocket? Never heard about that one. Which route did it run?

It was a joint operation between the CB&Q (Burlington Route), and the CRI&P (Rock Island)....It ran from St. Louis to Burlington on the 'Q', and then from Burlington to St. Paul on the 'Rock'. It used equipment from both roads in the pool arrangement, and used the Q's Zephyr, and the Rock's Rocket names designating 'streamliner' .....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Didn't the Illinois Zephyr used to go to the Missouri side (West Quincy?) at one time due to operational facilities? I guess they still go there after discharging all passengers in Quincy, Illinoix.......

Until the flood of '93 there were stations in both Quincy and West Quincy (just a rail yard and collection gas stations, tobacco shops, pawn shops, and used car dealers, no population to speak of). The station was washed away and never replaced. Both trains rest in West Quincy where the station used to be.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

Zephyr Rocket? Never heard about that one. Which route did it run?

It was a joint operation between the CB&Q (Burlington Route), and the CRI&P (Rock Island)....It ran from St. Louis to Burlington on the 'Q', and then from Burlington to St. Paul on the 'Rock'. It used equipment from both roads in the pool arrangement, and used the Q's Zephyr, and the Rock's Rocket names designating 'streamliner' .....

Thanks for the info. Found this great picture of it with an E6A in Saint Louis: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2347176.

Looks like the Burlington could have run it on their own tracks going St. Louis-Galesburg-La Crosse-Minneapolis. The route they did use looks to be a bit faster. I think parts of it are currently duplicated with a combination of BTW and JL buses, but the full route is not run through. Great oppurtunity for some service restoration.

 

[railiner]

There were many possible alternate train routes in those days....as for bus service, after the train was discontinued at the end of the sixties, Continental Trailways and Jefferson Lines did in fact run a similar joint pool thru bus.....Continental Trailways (former American Buslines, previously former Burlington Transportation Company dba Burlington Trailways) ran it from St. Lous to Cedar Rapids, and Jefferson Lines from Cedar Rapids to Minneapolis.

As for railroads running joint thru services even thought they could take a roundabout route on their own lines, they often pooled to provide a faster service, or one which would hit more populous enroute cities....

The Burlington Lines Fort Worth and Denver subsidiary also teamed up with the Rock Island on the joint route linking Dallas and Houston in competition with others.....

So in those years roads could be bitter competitors on one route, and friendly partners for mutual benefit on others....

 

[PaulM]

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

The Zephyr Rocket timetable shows it stopping at Quincy. That would have been the station in West Quincy since it became the CB&Q Quincy station in 1953 when it replaced the one on the Quincy waterfront built in 1898, which replaced the one in which Lincoln, or was it Douglas, arrived for their debate. The freight portion of the old station is still in existence but would require a backup move coming from Chicago since the mainline crosses the river north of town and there is only a spur from the Missouri direction into the Quincy waterfront.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

There were many possible alternate train routes in those days....as for bus service, after the train was discontinued at the end of the sixties, Continental Trailways and Jefferson Lines did in fact run a similar joint pool thru bus.....Continental Trailways (former American Buslines, previously former Burlington Transportation Company dba Burlington Trailways) ran it from St. Lous to Cedar Rapids, and Jefferson Lines from Cedar Rapids to Minneapolis.
As for railroads running joint thru services even thought they could take a roundabout route on their own lines, they often pooled to provide a faster service, or one which would hit more populous enroute cities....

The Burlington Lines Fort Worth and Denver subsidiary also teamed up with the Rock Island on the joint route linking Dallas and Houston in competition with others.....

So in those years roads could be bitter competitors on one route, and friendly partners for mutual benefit on others....

That still happens a lot in the transport industry. Notably with the Amtrak-Greyhound relationship.

At one time the Mark Twain Zephyr that ran between Burlington and St. Louis stopped at West Quincy

Thanks for clearing that one up.....I suppose that the appropriately named, joint Burlington-Rock Island, St. Paul/Burlington/St. Lous "Zephyr Rocket" also stopped there, then?

The Zephyr Rocket timetable shows it stopping at Quincy. That would have been the station in West Quincy since it became the CB&Q Quincy station in 1953 when it replaced the one on the Quincy waterfront in built in 1898, which replaced the one in which Lincoln, or was it Douglas, arrived for their debate. The freight portion of the old station is still in existence but would require a backup move coming from Chicago since the mainline crosses the river north of town and there is only a spur from the Missouri direction into the Quincy waterfront.

Nice! Thanks for that. A timetable explains a lot. The Zephyr Rocket ran quite fast overnight, it must have had some Sleepers. This would be good for today's business travellers. It was really the Express, but seems to have made all stops on the Burlington segment.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.

The reason that timetable shows the train making all stops on the Burlington portion of its schedule, is because that is a detailed Rock Island timetable, showing all stations on the route, whether the particular Zephyr Rocket stops there, or not. The small section denoted for the CB&Q is just a condensed portion of the actual CB&Q timetable, only showing those stations that the joint Zephyr Rocket stops at on the Burlington.....

This type of listing was common for the convenience of passengers, so they would not have to carry several timetables with them, only the primary one for the road they most often travelled....

Sometimes they would also have a simple card timetable dedicated to the stops for the one train or two on it....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.
The reason that timetable shows the train making all stops on the Burlington portion of its schedule, is because that is a detailed Rock Island timetable, showing all stations on the route, whether the particular Zephyr Rocket stops there, or not. The small section denoted for the CB&Q is just a condensed portion of the actual CB&Q timetable, only showing those stations that the joint Zephyr Rocket stops at on the Burlington.....

This type of listing was common for the convenience of passengers, so they would not have to carry several timetables with them, only the primary one for the road they most often travelled....

Sometimes they would also have a simple card timetable dedicated to the stops for the one train or two on it....

If I understand correctly, the timetable shows all the Zephyr Rocket stops in the Burlington section, but omits the local stops of the "Local" train on the same route in the Burlington section.

 

[Notelvis]

Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.

There is the former Burlington Railroad Depot in Dubuque which is in great shape but it is now across the street from the tracks and has been encompassed by the National Mississippi River Museum.

I was in Dubuque last month for a reunion commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the Colts Drum & Bugle Corps and drove by the site which has been identified for a new multimodal station. There are no signs of any imminent construction and ironically, the organization I was in town to celebrate with was storing a pair of unused buses on the site along with another couple of smaller vehicles.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak and Greyhound don't really pool together....Greyhound can run anywhere it wants, and when it is part of an Amtrak thruway type connection, it is done for the benefit of Amtrak travellers. Greyhound doesn't sell connection travel on Amtrak....it is a one-sided operation.
The reason that timetable shows the train making all stops on the Burlington portion of its schedule, is because that is a detailed Rock Island timetable, showing all stations on the route, whether the particular Zephyr Rocket stops there, or not. The small section denoted for the CB&Q is just a condensed portion of the actual CB&Q timetable, only showing those stations that the joint Zephyr Rocket stops at on the Burlington.....

This type of listing was common for the convenience of passengers, so they would not have to carry several timetables with them, only the primary one for the road they most often travelled....

Sometimes they would also have a simple card timetable dedicated to the stops for the one train or two on it....

If I understand correctly, the timetable shows all the Zephyr Rocket stops in the Burlington section, but omits the local stops of the "Local" train on the same route in the Burlington section.

Now you've got the idea....to see all the stops, you would have to get a complete Burlington timetable. There you might see the reverse....a condensed portion of the Rock Island timetable between Burlington and St. Paul showing only those stations that the Zephyr Rocket or any other joint train would make along it.....

Some of those "system timetables" of years back were almost like a mini-Official Guide of the Railways, thick with many timetables---condensed thru train tables, detailed main line tables, branch lines, and even connecting railways, especially if joint pool trains operated over them. Some even showed airline, steamship, and bus schedules...a real treasure trove of timetables....

 

[oldtimer]

Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.
There is the former Burlington Railroad Depot in Dubuque which is in great shape but it is now across the street from the tracks and has been encompassed by the National Mississippi River Museum.

I can verify that the former IC station was used by the Blackhawk.

I can also tell you that the Blackhawk used RDC's as its equipment in a 3 car lashup.

 

[rrdude]

Amtrak's 'Blackhawk' used the former Illinois Central passenger station in Dubuque but that station was torn down shortly after the Blackhawk was discontinued. The site is now covered by the northbound lanes of the widened (in the 1980's) US 151 headed towards Madison, WI.
There is the former Burlington Railroad Depot in Dubuque which is in great shape but it is now across the street from the tracks and has been encompassed by the National Mississippi River Museum.

I can verify that the former IC station was used by the Blackhawk.

I can also tell you that the Blackhawk used RDC's as its equipment in a 3 car lashup.

Agree at one time, or from time-to-time, the BH used RDC's, but when I worked it in 80-81, it was Amfleet. Nice thing about that job was it was super EZ, not a lot of pax, leisurly schedule, overnight in Dubuque.

 

[benroethig]

I believe that the current Illinois Central (CN) trackage still extends across the entire state of IA to Omaha, NB. The original IC route ran to Waterloo which is about 90 miles farther West than Dubuque. When Amtrak stepped in they shortened the route by about 90 miles. Its likely that the IA department of transportation sees no market West of Dubuque. I was reading that the state is currently building a new transportation center for train and bus service. This seems like a terrible waste of money as the old Dubuque train station is still there and in great condition.

The Depot is owned by the Museum and connected to it. To be honest, the Intermodal Facility is more about having a parking ramp in the millwork district than it is the actual train. The train ironically might not even stop here because of issues the city is having with CP over the trackage.

 

[jason]

anybody have any new updates on this?

 

[fairviewroad]

anybody have any new updates on this?

This article/radio story posted today doesn't really have much by way of new information, only that "talks continue" between IDOT and CN.

However, it does indicate that desire for this service is still in the forefront among local communities.

Wait Continues, But There's Still Hope For Amtrak Route

 

[Nathanael]

Most recent estimates I've heard have slipped to "late" 2015. However, bascially the Black Hawk restoration is delayed until there's an agreement between IDOT and CN. At that point, if the money's available, it could probably be built within a year -- platforms, sidings, signalling -- I can't imagine that there would be any major bridges or tunnels or ROW acquisition or wetland filling or anything else *slow* required.

The Moline service is also scheduled to start in December 2015. It appears to be further along in the process, but requires substantially more track and signal improvements. Though IDOT is really very opaque, it *seems* as if all the contracts with railroads have been signed and the land acquisition is well underway, so it really ought to be under construction in 2014 once the construction season starts.

Opening the new routes in late 2015 has one major advantage over trying to open earlier: some of the new bilevels should have been delivered by then, meaning that there won't be any scrounging around for cars or futzing about with platform heights: the platforms can be built for the new bilevels and operated with them immediately.