CN puts restriction on City of New Orleans

[wayman]

Sorry, but with someone that has the definitave inside scoop (read: employee) the 30 axle minimum has not a solitary single thing to do with the detectors. It's for the road grade crossings. Now with the being said, no one can tell me what a 30 axle minimum train does to a grade crossing that a longer one doesn't but again, nothing at all regarding the detectors.

My info came from an Amtrak employee; he's been fairly reliable in the past BUT I got to thinking. The lone engine City breaks down and the CN sends an engine to the rescue. Does the freight engine have to round up 6 or 7 cars, depending if he is six axled, just to rescue a dead in the water train?

When Amtrak needs to move a rescue engine quickly they give it a single coach, which makes it a "train" instead of a "light engine" and allows it to move much faster (if I recall a past thread correctly). Wouldn't CN want to give their rescue engine at least one car for the same reason, so it's not tying up their main any longer than it has to as it's making its way to the stranded Amtrak? May as well give it seven cars as one.

But on the other hand, I agree, Had8ley, this sounds crazy--also, what would the rescue engine do with the cars when it got to the CONO? Some fancy switching to get them on the tail end?

 

[Ryan]

Sorry, but with someone that has the definitave inside scoop (read: employee) the 30 axle minimum has not a solitary single thing to do with the detectors. It's for the road grade crossings. Now with the being said, no one can tell me what a 30 axle minimum train does to a grade crossing that a longer one doesn't but again, nothing at all regarding the detectors.

My info came from an Amtrak employee; he's been fairly reliable in the past BUT I got to thinking. The lone engine City breaks down and the CN sends an engine to the rescue. Does the freight engine have to round up 6 or 7 cars, depending if he is six axled, just to rescue a dead in the water train?

No, because he wouldn't be running at pax train speeds - the way I read the OP, it's only a problem at higher speeds.

 

[NativeSon5859]

I saw the CONO sitting in NOL today (sans engine) as I arrived on the Crescent...

baggage car

transition sleeper

sleeper

CCC

coach

coach

coach

 

[Guest]

Just confirmed with a pax on board that the City is now a 7 car, one engine train. CN had a problem with a five car train hitting the hot box detectors at pax train speed so they imposed a 30 axle minimum on the City. Could we get the lounge car back?

30 axles? THIRTY axles? If the detector tells them they really have 30 axles do they have to stop the train and look for the two they lost? Since so far as I know, everything Amtrak runs, power included, has four axles, this is an impossible number.

Recently on the Sunset I heard different numbers called out by two hot box detectors and as I opened my eyes and turned up the scanner, my brother asked what's wrong ? I just answered we lost half a truck. He started to get concerned and worried so I just said " Don't worry about it, we're on UP tracks.

Posted by had8ley: "My info came from an Amtrak employee"

The **origional** post that started this thread (again from had8ley) stated that you had gotten this info from a "pax"

Which was it, PAX or an employee?

If an employee, was it a conductor/assistant conductor or an onboard employee?

I assume that you had aquired your info from a pax or a conductor/assistant conductor from the Crescent as they would be expected to be unfamilair with CN's operating rules and bulletins.

If a conductor/assistant conductor had told you the axle restriction was account of the detectors, then he/she should read and become familiar with CN Operating Bulletin 18, dated April 24, 2009 governing the Gulf Coast Zone, McComb Division which reads in part: "All train movements of 30 axles or less must not exceed 60mph approaching publc crossings at grade that are equipped with automatic warning devices"

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Guest: hadley said he confirmed his information with a pax, thus implying he got his information elsewhere-- ergo, the employee.

As for the thirty axle problem... if there was a missing two axles I am sure the fact that one of the cars is grinding very hard against the ground would be a clue to the crew that they were missing a few wheels and not need a detector to tell them.

 

[AlanB]

Posted by had8ley: "My info came from an Amtrak employee"

The **origional** post that started this thread (again from had8ley) stated that you had gotten this info from a "pax"

Which was it, PAX or an employee?

If an employee, was it a conductor/assistant conductor or an onboard employee?

I assume that you had aquired your info from a pax or a conductor/assistant conductor from the Crescent as they would be expected to be unfamilair with CN's operating rules and bulletins.

If a conductor/assistant conductor had told you the axle restriction was account of the detectors, then he/she should read and become familiar with CN Operating Bulletin 18, dated April 24, 2009 governing the Gulf Coast Zone, McComb Division which reads in part: "All train movements of 30 axles or less must not exceed 60mph approaching publc crossings at grade that are equipped with automatic warning devices"

Guest: hadley said he confirmed his information with a pax, thus implying he got his information elsewhere-- ergo, the employee.

Actually to be clear, he said that he had confirmed with a passenger that the City was now running with 7 cars. I quote from his original post:

Just confirmed with a pax on board that the City is now a 7 car, one engine train.

No mention in there that he got the info on the 30 axle rule from the pax, or anyone else for that matter. Just that he had confirmed with a passenger that Amtrak was now obeying said rule.

 

[jackal]

I still don't understand. Anyone know what about road grade crossings is effected by having less than 30 axles?

Maybe it is something to do with the circuits that cause the crosing gates to go down . . . not exactly sure. But those are somehow triggered by the train passing over a segment of track before the crossing.

I would hope that the number of axles does not effect that. I believe the locos are setup to trip those.

Here is some reading about this subject.How Railroad Crossing Signals Work: Detection Circuits

My guess (without reading that link) is that the problem isn't with the crossing going down (it'll go down as soon as the detection loops are activated or as soon as the computer calculates the velocity of the train after the wheels short the first two loops), it's with releasing it after the train goes by. A train too short going by too quickly may fool the circuits into thinking the train actually hasn't completely exited the crossing, leaving the gates down too long.

 

[had8ley]

Good golly...I almost feel like someone wants to bury me by a hot box machine. My POINT was that the train now has added cars~ if a hobo gave me the info about the axle count it is still accurate. I'm glad you can quote from CN rules because it validates what I posted.

 

[printman2000]

I also don't understand what would have all the sudden caused this change. How long as has the CONO been running with its current setup, and just now it is a problem?

 

[had8ley]

I also don't understand what would have all the sudden caused this change. How long as has the CONO been running with its current setup, and just now it is a problem?

Good question; I've been calling the one engine, five car City the Metra scoot that got ran away from Chicago for about two years now. I can't give you an exact date but it was around the time of the baggage car shortage and the CCC introduction (the lounge and the baggage car were lost .) Why it's a problem is something the CN will probably plead the 5th.

 

[Ryan]

It could be that it's taken 2 years for people to notice, complain, CN to figure out what's causing the problem and issue the fix. I can't imagine that a lot of people have been massively inconvenienced for the 2 trains each day that a grade crossing sees.

 

[had8ley]

It could be that it's taken 2 years for people to notice, complain, CN to figure out what's causing the problem and issue the fix. I can't imagine that a lot of people have been massively inconvenienced for the 2 trains each day that a grade crossing sees.

I think you're on the right path here. CN's answer to what are considered dangerous crossings is to close them.

 

[VentureForth]

I guess doodle bugs will never return to the CN...

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

A train too short going by too quickly may fool the circuits into thinking the train actually hasn't completely exited the crossing, leaving the gates down too long.

Did they ever teach you something to that effect when you were working on the Alaska railroad?

I believe that people have posted saying that Hy-Rail vehicles normally have insulated axles, because if they had uninsulated axles, they would not reliably active track occupancy circuits. That certainly gives us a data point that lightweight, two axle rail vehicles may not be able to reliably active the circuits.

 

[George Harris]

First, my comments on 30 axles versus 32 axles was mainly facetious.

It has been known for a long time that single car RDC’s had shunting problems, and as a result were frequently given speed restrictions. Somehow there were companies that worked around them. For example, up until sometime after 1962, the Rock Island ran a single RDC Memphis to Amarillo, Texas, with out any particular speed restrictions. Most of the line was unsignaled but there were surely some crossings with flashers on it. It was allowed 70 mph between Memphis and Little Rock, which was signaled. Also, the B&O ran a single RDC in commuter service between Washington DC and Martinsburg WV into the 1970’s at least. What I had heard about these things is that because they had disc brakes rather than tread brakes, the wheel treads tended to pick up gunk that caused then to no longer have good electrical contact with the rails. Since I think everything Amtrak has disc brakes, they probably have that same problem. But, how about the engines? I am fairly sure all engines have tread brakes, so the gunk build up on the wheels should not happen. In theory, at least, one axle should be able to ensure the shunting of the track circuit.

 

[battalion51]

It really does make you wonder though. You've got 12 axle shuttles running on the Springfield line, and 8-12 axle Tri-Rail trains running at track speed without any grade crossing/DD issues. What is CN's issue.

 

[caravanman]

Sadly, I have read every posting on this topic, but have no more idea about the reasons for increasing the length of a train than I had before I read them all..

Hot box detection is designed to alert crew to the overheating of the wheel bearings (boxes). It will detect brakes sticking and other out of the ordinary heat sources too. It will detect a single overheating box, as this is what it is designed to do.

Here in the uk, track circuits require the electrical connection of one rail to the other, this is done by the current passing from one rail, through the wheels and axles of the train to the other rail. In an emergency, a simple metal bar or official "track circuit clip" placed across both rails will suffice to operate the track circuit and turn the signals to danger. I find it hard to believe that any modern locomotive or other rolling stock would be designed which would not incorporate the ability to operate track circuits, for signaling or crossing operation purposes.

At one time here, the linings of bearings on older rail wagons were made from a moderatly valuable metal (I think phosphor bronze ..) Thieves used to jack up the empty wagons and remove the linings.. Quite a few hot boxes in those days, and no automatic detection equipment.. anyone smell burning..?

Ed B)

 

[jackal]

A train too short going by too quickly may fool the circuits into thinking the train actually hasn't completely exited the crossing, leaving the gates down too long.

Did they ever teach you something to that effect when you were working on the Alaska railroad?

I believe that people have posted saying that Hy-Rail vehicles normally have insulated axles, because if they had uninsulated axles, they would not reliably active track occupancy circuits. That certainly gives us a data point that lightweight, two axle rail vehicles may not be able to reliably active the circuits.

No, but I find it fairly hard to believe that a 28-axle train wouldn't be long enough to activate the crossing at all.

Then again, track detection circuits are strange beasts with lots of redundancy built in, and the processors used in these machines are extremely slow but extremely stable. I wouldn't be surprised if it's even something along the lines of an 8 MHz processor...and that may not be fast enough to deal with a 600' train screaming by at 115 feet per second...

BTW, I thought hot boxes were (mostly) a thing of the past with roller bearings instead of older journal bearings.

 

[had8ley]

Sadly, I have read every posting on this topic, but have no more idea about the reasons for increasing the length of a train than I had before I read them all..Hot box detection is designed to alert crew to the overheating of the wheel bearings (boxes). It will detect brakes sticking and other out of the ordinary heat sources too. It will detect a single overheating box, as this is what it is designed to do.

Here in the uk, track circuits require the electrical connection of one rail to the other, this is done by the current passing from one rail, through the wheels and axles of the train to the other rail. In an emergency, a simple metal bar or official "track circuit clip" placed across both rails will suffice to operate the track circuit and turn the signals to danger. I find it hard to believe that any modern locomotive or other rolling stock would be designed which would not incorporate the ability to operate track circuits, for signaling or crossing operation purposes.

At one time here, the linings of bearings on older rail wagons were made from a moderatly valuable metal (I think phosphor bronze ..) Thieves used to jack up the empty wagons and remove the linings.. Quite a few hot boxes in those days, and no automatic detection equipment.. anyone smell burning..?

Ed B)

You're probably got a good argument for having high speed trains while we limp along in comparison to European trains!

 

[GORD]

This whole thing seems ridiculous. Why, all of a sudden, are the hotbox detectors not working on shorter trains? On every other railroad, they work. I believe this requirement is really hurting the OT of the Illini and Saluki, which run with four cars. Running with old Amtrak express cars would be a better idea since there are plenty of those around, rather than empty passenger cars which are in short supply. The CN should pay for the extra cost until they fix this problem.

Via runs 3, 4 and 5 car trains on CN's Windsor Toronto-Ottawa- Montreal corridor day in and day out, 90 to 100 mph. Some of these runs are with Budd, stainless steel coaches, too, no cab signalling required either. The hot box detectors on the Kingston Sub. (TO-MTL.) also read off the speed. Obsolete equipment on the old IC maybe?

Gord

 

[caravanman]

Gord Knows..

Ed B)