abqdave
Train Attendant
Colorado, New Mexico and Texas will submit a joint application tomorrow for funding to study the viability of an El Paso-ABQ-Denver high speed rail line. http://www.democracyfornewmexico.com/democ...speed-rail.html
CO-NM-TX High Speed Rail Study
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Colorado is almost done with its part, the study of 220mph ICE style trains from Pueblo to Fort Collins (expandable to Trinidad-Cheyenne). And the I-70 is part of the study too. Its supposed to come out sometime this month, recommending Vail-Denver, Pueblo-Ft. Collins as the routes to be taken. Only 32 billion for the whole thing, so I think the costs are understated. The I70 route can't be that cheap. The website is here:
Colorado High Speed Rail
It is an official state study, commissioned by the cities en route and CDOT.
Colorado High Speed Rail
It is an official state study, commissioned by the cities en route and CDOT.
If you were to develop a high-speed rail line between DEN and ABQ, there would need to be major construction to get over the Glorieta and Raton passes. Would there ever be enough traffic on the line to justify the expense of building tunnels or other physical infrastructure to get over, through, or around those barriers? I seriously doubt it.
metrorail
Train Attendant
El Paso doesn't exactly have a super-high population. If they want to build this, they need to expand to San Antonio or Houston.
printman2000
Engineer
El Paso?? I cannot believe Texas will up much money to have service to ONE town that is on the extreme border of Texas.
According to wikipedia, El Paso metropolitan area has a population of 736,000. If one includes Ciudad Juarez across the border, the greater metropolitan region expands to 2 million. But given the problems and the drug war just across the border, one wonders how or if they would include the Mexican side population in a study. Have to juggle the politics carefully.
If by high speed rail, they mean a 90 mph peak speed, 110 mph in a few long open stretches, conventional rail that uses mostly existing ROWs with upgraded tracks, a Denver to Colorado Springs to Albuquerque to Las Cruces to El Paso line might be viable. Some 600+ miles total (very quick look at a map), it would be 9 to 10+ hours end to end run if they could maintain a 70 mph average. Do several trains a day end to end with several more covering the Denver-Colorado Springs-Albuquerque leg which I guess would get more traffic. I can't see a 220 mph true HSR line being close to cost effective over the entire length. Sure would be a scenic ride through New Mexico.
It is a long way from El Paso to either San Antonio or Fort Worth. Through a lot of open country. I think it would make more sense to have El Paso as a connector station on a conventional east-west axis long range line connecting to the Texas T-bone HSR system, probably in Fort Worth/Dallas at one end. Upgrade the current ROW tracks or add new tracks on a Fort Worth - Abilene - El Paso - Tucson - Phoenix - LA line. Too long for a day train however, so maybe the only connection at El Paso would be a once or twice a day Amtrak LD train.
George Harris
Engineer
By the time they get from Denver to Albuquerque, going on to El Paso will be dirt cheap.
Between Albuquerque and El Paso, the existing BNSF line is unsignaled but relatively straight, generally following the Rio Grande River valley. Getting it up to 110 mph should not be too difficult or expensive and will require minimal relocations. To get 200 mph plus would require its own track or tracks, but could probably parallel the existin line most of the distance.
Since El Paso is right in the corner, there are very few miles of this line that are in Texas. Most of the distance is in New Mexico.
Between Albuquerque and El Paso, the existing BNSF line is unsignaled but relatively straight, generally following the Rio Grande River valley. Getting it up to 110 mph should not be too difficult or expensive and will require minimal relocations. To get 200 mph plus would require its own track or tracks, but could probably parallel the existin line most of the distance.
Since El Paso is right in the corner, there are very few miles of this line that are in Texas. Most of the distance is in New Mexico.
MikeM
OBS Chief
I'd be more curious about high speed Denver to Vail? If you follow I70, grades are really steep, so construction would require tunneling to get the grade down, or lots of looping. Or, you could go Denver / Pueblo, then Tennesse Pass to use existing rail lines, but that isn't exactly the NEC either. The joint line is totally congested, so that could be a bear.
I would say having driven this route more than once, traffic is a total bear in this patch, and getting through on a Friday or Sunday, even on off peak seasons, is very slow at best.
I would say having driven this route more than once, traffic is a total bear in this patch, and getting through on a Friday or Sunday, even on off peak seasons, is very slow at best.
There is the existing track that Amtrak uses from Trinidad, CO to Albuquerque. What is the quality of that segment and how much work would be it to upgrade it to 90 or 110 mph peak speeds?
What tracks or ROW are there from Trinidad to Pueblo, CO? How much to straighten? Or build new ROW tracks along I-25? If some semblance of the Colorado HSR shown in the viewgraphs and reports is built, there would someday be a HSR line from Denver to Pueblo that would take care of that segment. The Rocky Mountain Rail Authority viewgraph diagrams show possible lines going the I-25 corridor to Trinidad, but I figure it would be impossible justifying HSR (be it 110 mph conventional, 150 mph electrified / Acela class, 220 mph real HSR) south of Pueblo unless it goes all the way to Albuquerque. The plan could be to build a electrified HSR from Fort Collins to Denver to Pueblo CO along the I-25 corridor. Anyone along that stretch who wanted to go to Albuquerque would take the CO HSR to Pueblo and then get a conventional 90-110 mph train leaving from Pueblo headed for El Paso. By getting NM and TX involved in a Denver to El Paso HSR line, that could help CO get more support for snagging additional federal gigabucks for a Fort Collins to Pueblo CO HSR line.
printman2000
Engineer
I believe that segment is way to curved to be upgraded. Trains now run really slow over most of it.
You sure? I thought that was one of the stretches where the Amtrak Southwest Chief runs at 90 mph.
S
SUNSETLIMITED01
Guest
The only area I know that the Southwest Chief hits 90 mph is most of Kansas, Colorado, and possibly parts of Arizona. Between Trinidad, CO to Albuquerque, NM it's 80 mph. I've never ridden the southwest chief before, but I know this from the documentary. "America By Rails: Route of the Southwest Chief"
George Harris
Engineer
Here are the locations and speed restrictions on the existing line between Trinidad CO ad El Paso TX. From here anyone can make up their own minds about what is what.
Milepost locations of various places on the way for reference:
635.8...Trinidad CO
651.8...Wooton CO
659.5...Raton NM
770.1...Las Vegas NM
825.2...Glorieta NM
835.2...Lamy NM
865.3...Domingo
886.0...Bernalillo
902.4...Albuquerque
915.0...Isleta (El Paso line to south, mainline to west, milepost 12.3)
..27.4...Dailes (joint freight main)
915.0...Isleta (Begin El Paso line)
932.4...Belen Jct.
934.4...El Paso Jct. (freight main turns east here)
977.8...Socorro
1043.2..Engel
1112.5..Las Cruces NM
1139.8..Vinton TX
1155.1..El Paso TX
From a not too old but not current employee timetable:
Raton Subdivision
(only restrictions from Trinidad south are copied)
Milepost locations of various places on the way for reference:
635.8...Trinidad CO
651.8...Wooton CO
659.5...Raton NM
770.1...Las Vegas NM
825.2...Glorieta NM
835.2...Lamy NM
865.3...Domingo
886.0...Bernalillo
902.4...Albuquerque
915.0...Isleta (El Paso line to south, mainline to west, milepost 12.3)
..27.4...Dailes (joint freight main)
915.0...Isleta (Begin El Paso line)
932.4...Belen Jct.
934.4...El Paso Jct. (freight main turns east here)
977.8...Socorro
1043.2..Engel
1112.5..Las Cruces NM
1139.8..Vinton TX
1155.1..El Paso TX
From a not too old but not current employee timetable:
Raton Subdivision
(only restrictions from Trinidad south are copied)
Glorieta Subdivision
El Paso Line speed restrictions
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Thanks for posting the very detailed info. There are quite a number of 25, 40, 50 mph max speed segments over that line. A number of those are presumably due to curvy tracks running through narrow passes or difficult terrain which would cost a bundle to straighten out or upgrade to moderate speeds. Given the vast distance between the major population centers, if the study comes back and says several billion $ for some new stations and upgrading the track from Pueblo, CO to El Paso, TX to 90 mph in some stretches, 79 in others, with a number of remaining slow 20 to 50 mph segments making for a overall average of 60 mph end to end, would it kill the idea? Hard to justify spending that much money if the travel time from El Paso to Denver is 12 or 13 hours with several trains a day.
Wonder if part of the motivation for the HSR study for NM is to use the study to get a handle on the minimum cost of doing a upgrade of the El Paso line for passenger trains with some modest speed improvements. Not HSR, but instead look at starting a extended Rail Runner service from Albuquerque to Las Cruces to El Paso? A search shows that there are people pushing for such a service. Travel time from El Paso to Albuquerque of 5-6 hours? Would that get much use?
If you read the documents at the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority website, they looked at using EMUs which can handle a 7% grade. Some of the plans would build a line that would mostly parallel I-70. There are rather detailed 54 and 97 page PDF viewgraph sets from a workshop at:
http://rockymountainrail.org/documents/RMR..._AM_Finalad.pdf
http://rockymountainrail.org/documents/RMR...09_PM_Final.pdf
MikeM
OBS Chief
Great info, thanks for point me in the right direction!
So high speed north and south from Denver. And then Denver to Vail. I have read as far west as Grand Junction, CO also. Has anyone seen or heard mention high speed farther west than Grand Junction?
I'm thinking Denver to Las Vegas to L.A.
I'm thinking Denver to Las Vegas to L.A.
VentureForth
Engineer
I don't think there is any need for HSR along that corridor. I WOULD like to see conventional LD service along that route, though. It's too far for commuter service, too under populated for HSR, and just right for LD.
henryj
Conductor
This thing is a huge boondoggle when we can't even get HS rail between Texas two largest metro areas, Houston and Dallas/Ft Worth. There are many more productive ways to spend 32 billion dollars. Even the cost of the study is a waste. The only viable part of the plan is the I25 corridor down to Pueblo. After that a conventional LD train once a day is all that is required and few would ride it. El Paso is not exactly your most popular destination.
A better prospect is a LD train to connect Texas DFW area with Colorado or extending the Heartland Flyer to KC. The Amtrak system is totally lacking in north-south connecting trains. A Texas Colorado train would of necessity use the joint line from Trinidad north. So it's feasible to join it there with one from El Paso and ABQ.
A better prospect is a LD train to connect Texas DFW area with Colorado or extending the Heartland Flyer to KC. The Amtrak system is totally lacking in north-south connecting trains. A Texas Colorado train would of necessity use the joint line from Trinidad north. So it's feasible to join it there with one from El Paso and ABQ.
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I've always thought Dallas - Houston is one of the biggest holes in the current Amtrak network. If there's enough ridership to support a Fort Worth - Oklahoma City train, surely there'd be enough ridership to warrant a Dallas - Houston route!
MikeM
OBS Chief
This does have the feel of a consultant employment project as much as anything.
But having driven along the front range and especially through the mountains, the freeways are clogged and with all the ski and summer festival traffic, I think some rail solution would be good in the long run. As for taking it all the way to Grand Junction?? Not sure if that would be cost effective, unless you could convert to conventional trains in Vail or Eagle before hitting the UP mainline at Dotsero. Glenwood Springs is a major tourist destination in it's own right, and at least right of way remains on an old D&RG branch up to Aspen, although I think it may have been converted to a trail when Aspen gave up on a passenger service along the line.
The current Colorado Plan for I70 is to only have HSR to Vail. Then a 90-110mph train will go from there. I can understand the front range/I70 part of this project, its heavily congested there, it would be worth the expense. But to go any farther with HSR (defined by me as 150-220mph) seems like a waste of money. New Mexico just doesn't have the population to justify the expense. I can understand conventional LD trains (maybe at 110mph) but HSR to El Paso seems like a waste of money.
metrorail
Train Attendant
Thank you! Finally someone sees it too!
To travel from Dallas to Houston or Houston to Dallas on AMTRAK would be a horrible, long, and a untimely experience. We NEED H.S. Rail more than El Paso or Denver combined!
George Harris
Engineer
Yes, and a few years back you came real close to getting it. You could have been riding trains by now. Dallas to Houston has the terrain made for a high speed railroad. In the 1950's there were four hour trains operated on one route that had a 90 mph speed limit for much of the distance. Unfortunately there was not enough traffic on the line to make the maintenance cost to keep it that way worthwhile. The line through Bryan / College Station that Amtrak used for a while, taking 6 hours, I think, had one train a day that did it in 4 1/2 hours in the 1950's.
Right now I'm all for Colorado to Houston, just starting to determine the best and fastest route on Amtrak from Denver to Houston. Maybe taking Greyhound part of the way
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