Concrete ties?

[BCL]

I had one heck of a morning using four different rail systems to get to work. However, I did notice the concrete ties that Caltrain uses for most of its stations and their right of way. Any advantage to these? I don't recall seeing them at any of the stations that Caltrain shares with Amtrak.

Are there any uses of concrete ties along Amtrak routes.

The other thing that puzzled me for years was that BART didn't use ties at all. They typically bolted the rails directly to concrete.

Edit: There are a ties where BART runs over track ballast and not concrete. I'm more used to their elevated and subterranean routes.

 

[Gfoley4]

There are concerete ties all over the Northeast Corridor, and probably in the Michigan Corridor and new Chicago-St Louis corridor. I'm not sure why, but I've heard that BNSF likes to use concerete ties on curves but wood ties on straight track.

Also, like the BART example, the tracks going into Chicago Union State are fastened directly to the ground, no ties.

 

[AlanB]

Concrete ties provide a smoother ride than wood, since they flex less than wood does. And in theory, when properly manufactured, they last twice as long as wood ties so in theory one saves on replacement costs.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

All over the place. Pick a route and there's probably some concrete ties somewhere.

 

[George Harris]

There is a lot that can be and has been said on this subject, and the answers are not really that simple.

As to use of concrrete ties on tracks used by Amtrak: Other than the tracks that they own, which is primarily the northeast corridor, some lines in Michigan and a few other random pieces elsewhere, what is used in the way of track material is not their call at all, but the decision of the railroad company owning the track.

Each company has their own set of standards as to whether, where, or even if they use concrete ties. Unless changed recently, NS standard is very simple: We don't use them." CSX, UP, znc BNXF do use them, but not everywhere. The users generally use them in specific locations based on traffic volume, curvature, or other standards. For some, the standard is to use them in new tracks only but continue with wood for maintenance installations. It is not practical to go in and replace only the failed wood ties with concrete ties. You are in an all or none situation.

Concrete ties are much less tolerant of poor conditions of ballast, subgrade, and wheels because they are are more rigid. Track cannot be and should not be completely rigid.

The concrete tie promoters claim a life of 50 years plus for their ties. Properly designed, fabricated, and installed in properly maintained track they may get there, but none have been around that long as yet. Well, maybe some of the BART ties have, but these are under very light axle load trains. There have been a lot of failures in concrete ties in far shorter times than 50 years. Generally the cause of failure has been determined and the problem dealt with, but that does not change the fact that their have been failrues.

A good and properly treated wood tie will last over 30 years in track on average.

BART's rails "directly to concrete" are not really directly to concrete. There is a fastener between rail and concrete that has a rubber or other elastic material layer in it.

 

[tonys96]

UP is replacing track between FTW and DAL right now and is using concrete ties. They are replacing track with the TRT 909 train, and that is a fabulous piece of machinery, like a factory on rails.......I will try to post some pics of it working, since the track being replaced is right by both my house and my job.

Can someone tell me how to post pics?

 

[BCL]

CXT is making a big deal that they're supplying Caltrain (and BART) with their concrete ties. I was looking at the ones at the Millbrae station, and the big 'ol "CXT" is imprinted in the middle of the tie. I'm also wonder why these ties weren't straight. They have a shallow V shape; more like 3 bends.

 

[PRR 60]

CXT is making a big deal that they're supplying Caltrain (and BART) with their concrete ties. I was looking at the ones at the Millbrae station, and the big 'ol "CXT" is imprinted in the middle of the tie. I'm also wonder why these ties weren't straight. They have a shallow V shape; more like 3 bends.

CXT (not to be confused with CSX railroad) is a division of L. B. Foster, a leading supplier of rail and construction material.

Since concrete ties are formed, the shape can be designed to maximize material where it is needed and minimize it where tie stresses are lower. Over tens of thousands of ties, the material saved by the tie being shaped is significant.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Short answer is, wooden ties are "old school" and newer railroads predominantly use concrete ties. In fact, when I moved first to the US from India, I was surprised to see mainlines using wooden ties, since on Indian Railways practically all mainlines have their wooden ties replaced with concrete ties around a decade or so ago, and considering how slow things change in India, I used to think modern railroads around the world must have moved to concrete ties long ago, and then lo and behold- wooden ties here all over the place!

 

[CHamilton]

IIRC, Amtrak installed a bunch of concrete ties in the NEC sometime in the '80s(?) which turned out to be defective, so they had to redo everything. And if you search for "amtrak concrete ties defective" you'll find a number of similar, more recent stories. So the jury may still be out advantages of concrete ties.

 

[Ryan]

I think that it was even more recent than that - they just finished replacing the defective ties on track 1 from NCR to BAL 2 or 3 summers ago, and if I remember correctly, the ties were less than 10 years or so old.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

George Harris really knows about this stuff but, wow, four trains to get to work! Would you care to list them out?

 

[BCL]

Three actually. However I think I could make it four if I had to.

BART, Caltrain, and VTA light rail. It's always my backup plan if my schedule goes out of whack. It's also cheaper than Amtrak. It would have just been BART and Caltrain except that I was 2 minutes late and would never make it for the 523 at OAC.

I think if I really wanted to I could also work in Amtrak although it wouldn't make much sense. I've actually thought of working ACE in just so I take advantage of their shuttle buses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Three actually. However I think I could make it four if I had to.
BART, Caltrain, and VTA light rail. It's always my backup plan if my schedule goes out of whack. It's also cheaper than Amtrak. It would have just been BART and Caltrain except that I was 2 minutes late and would never make it for the 523 at OAC.

I think if I really wanted to I could also work in Amtrak although it wouldn't make much sense. I've actually thought of working ACE in just so I take advantage of their shuttle buses.

Where'd you start and end? I can't figure out your route yet.

 

[jis]

Short answer is, wooden ties are "old school" and newer railroads predominantly use concrete ties. In fact, when I moved first to the US from India, I was surprised to see mainlines using wooden ties, since on Indian Railways practically all mainlines have their wooden ties replaced with concrete ties around a decade or so ago, and considering how slow things change in India, I used to think modern railroads around the world must have moved to concrete ties long ago, and then lo and behold- wooden ties here all over the place!

Strictly speaking, India had relatively little wood ties left by the time concrete came along. This was primarily due to the shortage of available wood in India. IR had progressively been using cast steel ties since the 60s. A significant proportion of main line had been converted to cast steel ties before the conversion to concrete began.

One thing about IR is that once they set a policy, they seem to go with a vengeance after it, as evidenced by electrification, gauge conversion, conversion to color light signals and conversion to concrete ties.

 

[BCL]

Three actually. However I think I could make it four if I had to.

BART, Caltrain, and VTA light rail. It's always my backup plan if my schedule goes out of whack. It's also cheaper than Amtrak. It would have just been BART and Caltrain except that I was 2 minutes late and would never make it for the 523 at OAC.

I think if I really wanted to I could also work in Amtrak although it wouldn't make much sense. I've actually thought of working ACE in just so I take advantage of their shuttle buses.

Where'd you start and end? I can't figure out your route yet.

Let's just say I start at a BART station and end at GAC. My options include transferring to CC at Richmond or Coliseum, or Caltrain at Millbrae then VTA light rail to Lick Mill.

 

[Karl1459]

The issue will always be cost over the life of the tie.

Finding quality wood is difficult now. Most of the big 100+ year old trees have been cut and the smaller logs simply do not lend themselves to large timber sizes like a tie without unacceptable grain patterns. Also the envriomental converns over cresote or other preservatives.

There are and have been other materials used for ties. France, I believe, had substancial installations of steel ties at one time. BNSF was reported several years ago to be doing an installation of recycled plastic ties (I don't know how that turned out).

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

What's the expected cause of eventual failure of concrete ties? The accumulation of stress cracks? Reinforcing rods rusting out? I don't think so, but will mention it, road salt?

 

[BCL]

The issue will always be cost over the life of the tie.
Finding quality wood is difficult now. Most of the big 100+ year old trees have been cut and the smaller logs simply do not lend themselves to large timber sizes like a tie without unacceptable grain patterns. Also the envriomental converns over cresote or other preservatives.

There are and have been other materials used for ties. France, I believe, had substancial installations of steel ties at one time. BNSF was reported several years ago to be doing an installation of recycled plastic ties (I don't know how that turned out).

Well - thinking of wooden railroad ties, as a kid I used to spend endless hours alone during summer vacation watching TV. One of my local independent TV stations used to show syndicated reruns of Petticoat Junction. I remember one episode where the train derailed around a curve. Apparently they were removing railroad ties to burn as a fuel source and there was a question as to how many could be removed (supposedly because they were in bad shape) without there being a safety issue.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0673917/plotsummary

 

[me_little_me]

Atlanta's MARTA uses concrete ties and they also had a problem of deteriorating ones.

I talked to a representative of one company that made the recycled plastic ones many years ago and he was going to give the museum in Duluth, GA aone so we could put it on display. He never sent it.

 

[PaulM]

Even the Sprinter, a doodlebug (DMU) that runs between Oceanside and Escondido, CA uses concrete ties.

 

[PRR 60]

What's the expected cause of eventual failure of concrete ties? The accumulation of stress cracks? Reinforcing rods rusting out? I don't think so, but will mention it, road salt?

Precast concrete ties are a manufactured product. Lots of things can go wrong. It can be design flaws (the Amtrak failure was inadequate reinforcing), materials issues (reactive aggregate, for example), casting problems (too little or too much vibration), curing problems (too hot, too cold, too dry), or any combination of the above. Ensuring good concrete ties is more complex than ensuring good timber ties. It requires a serious QA/QC effort. QA/QC costs money, and is often the first thing neglected by both the supplier and the purchaser.

Manufactured properly, a concrete tie will last a long time. With problems, concrete ties can self destruct very quickly.

 

[BCL]

What's the expected cause of eventual failure of concrete ties? The accumulation of stress cracks? Reinforcing rods rusting out? I don't think so, but will mention it, road salt?

Precast concrete ties are a manufactured product. Lots of things can go wrong. It can be design flaws (the Amtrak failure was inadequate reinforcing), materials issues (reactive aggregate, for example), casting problems (too little or too much vibration), curing problems (too hot, too cold, too dry), or any combination of the above. Ensuring good concrete ties is more complex than ensuring good timber ties. It requires a serious QA/QC effort. QA/QC costs money, and is often the first thing neglected by both the supplier and the purchaser.

Manufactured properly, a concrete tie will last a long time. With problems, concrete ties can self destruct very quickly.

I ride BART in the Bay Area as well as Caltrain. Some of the concrete ties on BART look like concrete. The ones on top of ballast at the Richmond station look like weather worn rectangular concrete slabs made of Portland cement with the aggregate showing. They look like someone went to a hardware store and made them. The ones I noticed on Caltrain were formed in a wing shape, and were extremely smooth. The sort of reminded me of formed fiberglass. I'm not even sure if they should be called concrete. They seem to be more some sort of composite material beyond what most people would think of as concrete.

 

[NE933]

I think that it was even more recent than that - they just finished replacing the defective ties on track 1 from NCR to BAL 2 or 3 summers ago, and if I remember correctly, the ties were less than 10 years or so old.

Close. The local tracks of New Jersey, including trak one, was done in the late 90's with some exceptions. There is no good reason for relatively young ties to fail, especially when the express center tracks (2 and 3) were largely installed in early 80's and aside from normal rain smoothing of the corners and edges, are as healthy as diamonds.

 

[Ryan]

Yes, they got a defective batch.

And NCR-BAL is in Maryland, and they were definitely done between 2008 and 2011.