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northnorthwest

Service Attendant
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
158
There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!
 
I'll get the first post in on this. With the shortlines controlling the old PRR Panhandle to Columbus you're going to run into some problems. Namely slow speeds(under 40), and needing massive infrastructure. So I would see it splitting from the main route at Cleveland actually. Then following my three C route in this forum to Columbus. Then you can either run up via Ridgeway. I would like via Springdale but then it's a shortline again. Then into Indianapolis. Follows by CSX to St Louis ex NYC routing.

And then we would have another train running as the NYC Southwestern Limited. The run time could be shortened by avoiding Columbus.
 
How about an extension into Denver?

According to the 1978 "Final Report to Congress on the Amtrak Route System" (https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04153), one of the suggestions was a route between KCY and DEN to combine both the then Southwest Limited and San Francisco Zephyr to then split via Ogden, Utah.

Did Amtrak ever do KCY to DEN? Is there even a track and if so what are the details?
 
For this general route's history in the early Amtrak era, look up the National Limited which was discontinued in 1979.

As for KCY-DEN specifically, the State of KS studied this maybe 10ish years ago (the study used to be on the KDOT website, but a quick search didn't find it) using a route essentially paralleling I-70 - long travel time or major costs to upgrade and reduce times. Other possibilities - split from the Southwest Chief route at La Junta, running through Pueblo and Colorado Springs (but that runs into *major* congestion issues), or run a train, perhaps an extended Missouri River Runner, KCY-OMA with connections there on toward DEN.
 
Amtrak never had a KCY to DEN train. The primary route from KCY to DEN I believe is an UP route, which has not seen passenger service since the inception of Amtrak. But until just before Amtrak there was a train called Portland Rose or some such that connected KCY to DEN. It was a truncated version of a train that at some point connected KCY to Portland I suppose.

Currently there are two purely BNSF routings available, one via Omaha and the other via la Junta - Pueblo.
 
It was the UP route (via Topeka, Manhattan, Salina, Hays, etc) that KDOT studied. Really slow unless major bucks are spent to upgrade, if I remember the study correctly.

EDIT: Found the KDOT report that looked at the UP line. Without improvements, it estimated KCY-DEN travel times of around 18 hours given existing (as of year 2000) track conditions using standard Amtrak equipment, or around 10 hours with improvements and using Talgo equipment. http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burrail/rail/publications/krpt6_1.pdf
 
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zephyr17 said:
Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.
Click to expand...
Ah Thanks. I was just looking at an Amday discontinuance list and may have read it wrong.
 
jis said:
zephyr17 said:
Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.
Click to expand...
Ah Thanks. I was just looking at an Amday discontinuance list and may have read it wrong.
Click to expand...
Which Amday are we referring to here? The day it was formed back in 1971?
 
Yes.

Interestingly the City of Kansas City in its City of St. Louis incarnation was a through train from St. Louis to Los Angeles via KCY, DEN, Wyoming, Ogden, SLC, Las Vegas! as late as 1967. See:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/citystlouis196706.html

Oh and upon further checking of historical timetables.... I was not mistaken. There also was the Portland Rose which ran KCY - DEN - Cheyenne - Green River WY - Pocatello - Portland Seattle (bypassing Ogden). That one also went away on Amday.

City of Kansas City and City of Portland ran together upto Green River WY where it was split with the City of Portland going to Portland and City of Kansas City going to LA via Ogden. the City of Portland and the Portland Rose ran roughly twelve hours apart.

All from June 1969 Official Guide, 22 months before Amday.
 
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Philly Amtrak Fan said:
jis said:
zephyr17 said:
Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.
Click to expand...
Ah Thanks. I was just looking at an Amday discontinuance list and may have read it wrong.
Click to expand...
Which Amday are we referring to here? The day it was formed back in 1971?
Click to expand...
jis said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
I wonder if anyone has a list of all the trains that died on Amday (start a new thread)? Or is the list just way, way, way too long?
 
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Eric S said:
This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:

http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf
Click to expand...
For those of us who are too young and never lived through even this late period, this is an amazing thing to think about. Once Amtrak came so much just vanished! There are so many small towns and direct routes that were available that just got wiped out. Places that I have been to like Athens, GA or will have to go to like Laramie, WY actually had trains that served them! What a world. This makes me really want to read up on the history and understand the financial status of these railroads. They were operating according to this chart, but Amtrak decided to kill them. I'm guessing that means nobody was taking them? Or maybe people were still taking them, but the losses over time were unsustainable. Have to read about it. Either way, I'll enjoy imagining this train-connected version of the USA.
 
The most interesting thing about that list -- when was the discontinuation of the Wall Street, operated by the Reading from NY to Philadelphia? Did it get dropped in the Reading bankruptcy later in 1971?

It's also notable that the entire Erie, DL&W, Lehigh Valley, and CNJ networks were already gone. Upstate NY and PA got trashed even before Penn Central.
 
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northnorthwest said:
Eric S said:
This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:

http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf
Click to expand...
For those of us who are too young and never lived through even this late period, this is an amazing thing to think about. Once Amtrak came so much just vanished! There are so many small towns and direct routes that were available that just got wiped out. Places that I have been to like Athens, GA or will have to go to like Laramie, WY actually had trains that served them! What a world. This makes me really want to read up on the history and understand the financial status of these railroads. They were operating according to this chart, but Amtrak decided to kill them. I'm guessing that means nobody was taking them? Or maybe people were still taking them, but the losses over time were unsustainable. Have to read about it. Either way, I'll enjoy imagining this train-connected version of the USA.
Click to expand...
More than half of all passenger trains then operating died on May 1, 1971. A book you'd be interested in is "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey. It has case studies of what the various railroads did with their passenger services, the economics of it, and why even pro-passenger railroads like the Santa Fe and the Seaboard Coast Line were backing away from passenger service.. It is well written and a great read.

That was a sad time. I still remember going to LA Union Station and seeing the arrival/departure board (now itself gone) plastered with ICC-required discontinuation notices of the trains that were being discontinued in the Amtrak transition. Back then the pigeons in LAUPT outnumbered the people by a considerable margin. You could have shot a cannon off in there and not hit anybody. Also, at the time, almost no one expected Amtrak/Railpax to last more than 5 years, it was considered a fig leaf and a way to give intercity passenger service a decent burial politically: "Well, we tried." Amtrak was basically saved by the 1973-74 oil crisis and traffic on what was to become the NEC jumped and passenger rail's utility started being recognized. The need for service in the Northeast dragged the rest of the system with it because it was recognized that the rest of the country was not going to subsidize the Northeast if they weren't going to get service and an unspoken bargain was struck that lasted pretty much to this day. There was even a modest expansion in the mid-70s when the Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other trains got added, although the National Limited and some other trains got axed in the Carter Cuts in 1979. At that time, under the original legislation (The Passenger Rail Act of 1970), the railroads HAD to accept resumption of passenger service by Amtrak on any line that had had passenger service in 1970 and the railroad had to be in condition that would allow the speed of passenger trains as of 1970. If a line needed to be improved to meet that, the capital cost would not be borne by Amtrak. Unfortunately, those provisions lapsed with the expiration of the original act's authorization in 1996.

Laramie had service well into the Amtrak era with the San Francisco Zephyr, a kit-bash of the old California Zephyr and the City of San Francisco. Laramie lost service in 1983 when D&RGW finally joined Amtrak and 5/6 was re-routed onto Rio Grande to become Amtrak's California Zephyr. It regained service when the Pioneer was re-routed from Denver to Ogden over the UP and split from the CZ at Denver, basically in order to speed up the schedule and give better times in the Pacific Northwest. It lost it again in 1996(97?) when the Pioneer and Desert Wind were cut.

FYI, the Wall Street wasn't considered to be "intercity" so Reading didn't join Amtrak and didn't get to get rid of it as part of Amtrak. Not sure exactly when it died, though. The story of the railroads that were eligible to join Amtrak (D&RGW, Rock Island, Southern) but didn't and kept operating their own passenger trains is an interesting one. And it was a list that Santa Fe almost joined...
 
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The Wall Street's sister train, the Crusader survived as a Reading service between Philly and Newark until 1976, when Reading became part of Conrail. At that point SEPTA picked it up and operated it until April 1981. After discontinuance of through service NJTransit operated a single round trip per weekday service between Newark and West Trenton connecting to SEPTA West Trenton service. This NJT service ended in December 1982.
 
zephyr17 said:
northnorthwest said:
Eric S said:
This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:

http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf
Click to expand...
For those of us who are too young and never lived through even this late period, this is an amazing thing to think about. Once Amtrak came so much just vanished! There are so many small towns and direct routes that were available that just got wiped out. Places that I have been to like Athens, GA or will have to go to like Laramie, WY actually had trains that served them! What a world. This makes me really want to read up on the history and understand the financial status of these railroads. They were operating according to this chart, but Amtrak decided to kill them. I'm guessing that means nobody was taking them? Or maybe people were still taking them, but the losses over time were unsustainable. Have to read about it. Either way, I'll enjoy imagining this train-connected version of the USA.
Click to expand...
More than half of all passenger trains then operating died on May 1, 1971. A book you'd be interested in is "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey. It has case studies of what the various railroads did with their passenger services, the economics of it, and why even pro-passenger railroads like the Santa Fe and the Seaboard Coast Line were backing away from passenger service.. It is well written and a great read.

That was a sad time. I still remember going to LA Union Station and seeing the arrival/departure board (now itself gone) plastered with ICC-required discontinuation notices of the trains that were being discontinued in the Amtrak transition. Back then the pigeons in LAUPT outnumbered the people by a considerable margin. You could have shot a cannon off in there and not hit anybody. Also, at the time, almost no one expected Amtrak/Railpax to last more than 5 years, it was considered a fig leaf and a way to give intercity passenger service a decent burial politically: "Well, we tried." Amtrak was basically saved by the 1973-74 oil crisis and traffic on what was to become the NEC jumped and passenger rail's utility started being recognized. The need for service in the Northeast dragged the rest of the system with it because it was recognized that the rest of the country was not going to subsidize the Northeast if they weren't going to get service and an unspoken bargain was struck that lasted pretty much to this day. There was even a modest expansion in the mid-70s when the Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other trains got added, although the National Limited and some other trains got axed in the Carter Cuts in 1979. At that time, under the original legislation (The Passenger Rail Act of 1970), the railroads HAD to accept resumption of passenger service by Amtrak on any line that had had passenger service in 1970 and the railroad had to be in condition that would allow the speed of passenger trains as of 1970. If a line needed to be improved to meet that, the capital cost would not be borne by Amtrak. Unfortunately, those provisions lapsed with the expiration of the original act's authorization in 1996.

Laramie had service well into the Amtrak era with the San Francisco Zephyr, a kit-bash of the old California Zephyr and the City of San Francisco. Laramie lost service in 1983 when D&RGW finally joined Amtrak and 5/6 was re-routed onto Rio Grande to become Amtrak's California Zephyr. It regained service when the Pioneer was re-routed from Denver to Ogden over the UP and split from the CZ at Denver, basically in order to speed up the schedule and give better times in the Pacific Northwest. It lost it again in 1996(97?) when the Pioneer and Desert Wind were cut.

FYI, the Wall Street wasn't considered to be "intercity" so Reading didn't join Amtrak and didn't get to get rid of it as part of Amtrak. Not sure exactly when it died, though. The story of the railroads that were eligible to join Amtrak (D&RGW, Rock Island, Southern) but didn't and kept operating their own passenger trains is an interesting one. And it was a list that Santa Fe almost joined...
Click to expand...
Thanks for this book recommendation. I'm planning my January reading (while in WY...thus thinking about travel there), and this will definitely be on my list.
 
Well first Py you're going to need to go up to Columbus. And from there honestly Crestline onto the old PRR mainline. As the old PRR Panhandle belongs to two regional railroads now. And that's going to require massive improvement. So I think routing it further north would be better. Plus the line from CIN to Crestline would be improved for the three C corridor. And then the improvements from Crestline to PHH help you get a Broadway Limited on it's original route for a bit cheeper price. Even though I like the idea of adding service to the Panhandle line. Two trains a day from Crestline east will help the ridership grow. And six trains south if Crestline to CIN will really help ridership (Ohio State Limited, Buckeye corridor round trip, Cincinattian). But that's my ideas.
 
With established passenger routes now either gone, downgraded, or endangered, it can be a real challenge to find suitable routing. This scenario is getting worse. To get from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati, it looks like your best route, today, would be through Cleveland and Columbus. Yes, I can see where you could head westward to Crestline, but I'm not sure if this would be advisable. If you can still get from Pittsburgh to Columbus over ex-PRR trackage, with reasonable timing, then this would be the way to go--and shorter too.
 
My handy SPV atlas tells me that the good routes from PIT to CIN went through Columbus, forever. The PRR's demolished routes had no virtue over the routes through Columbus, and have even less virtue given the current population distribution.

The best route which is still intact from Pittsburgh to Columbus is controlled by the Wheeling & Lake Erie, and the Columbus & Ohio River Railroad. From Columbus to Cincy there are two choices, NS or Indiana & Ohio Central, but NS is better because it goes through Dayton.
 
northnorthwest said:
There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!
Click to expand...
I think there are 2 good options for possible routes from New York to St. Louis via Pittsburgh.

Option # 1

- Leg 1: The former Broadway Limited route which follows the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA, the current Capitol Limited route from Pittsburgh, PA to Alliance, OH, and continues west on Norfolk Southern to Crestline, OH.

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-Conrail/PC/NYC Big 4) Crestline, OH to Indianapolis, IN then, via the former National Limited route, to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Alliance-Crestline & New York-Pittsburgh-Indianapolis-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Canton, OH; Crestline, OH; 2nd New York-Indianapolis train with connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Greencastle, IN; Terre Haute, IN; connection to/from Illini, Saluki, City of New Orleans at Effingham, IL.

Option # 2

- Leg 1: The former Three Rivers route from New York, NY to Fostoria, OH, using the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA.

- Leg 2: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Nickel Plate) Fostoria, OH to Ft. Wayne, IN.

- Leg 3: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Wabash) Ft. Wayne, IN to Springfield, IL.

- Leg 4: Lincoln Service route Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Fostoria & New York-Pittsburgh-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Youngstown, OH; Akron, OH; Fostoria, OH; Ft. Wayne, IN, 2nd New York-Lafayette train with Connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Decatur, IL; adds another frequency between Springfield, IL and St. Louis.

A Washington-St. Louis section can run via the NEC Washington-Philadelphia to split/combine with the NY section and swap electric/diesel locomotives. That would provide the single seat ride you seek from Baltimore to St. Louis.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 1: replace one of the two daily Missouri River Runners with the new NY/WAS-KC train.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 2: instead of running Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO, run instead Springfield, IL to WB Jct., MO via Hannibal, MO (via Norfolk Southern), then down the current Southwest Chief route into Kansas City (via BNSF Railway).
 

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