Connect PGH to STL

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!

I think there are 2 good options for possible routes from New York to St. Louis via Pittsburgh.

Option # 1

- Leg 1: The former Broadway Limited route which follows the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA, the current Capitol Limited route from Pittsburgh, PA to Alliance, OH, and continues west on Norfolk Southern to Crestline, OH.

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-Conrail/PC/NYC Big 4) Crestline, OH to Indianapolis, IN then, via the former National Limited route, to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Alliance-Crestline & New York-Pittsburgh-Indianapolis-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Canton, OH; Crestline, OH; 2nd New York-Indianapolis train with connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Greencastle, IN; Terre Haute, IN; connection to/from Illini, Saluki, City of New Orleans at Effingham, IL.

Option # 2

- Leg 1: The former Three Rivers route from New York, NY to Fostoria, OH, using the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA.

- Leg 2: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Nickel Plate) Fostoria, OH to Ft. Wayne, IN.

- Leg 3: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Wabash) Ft. Wayne, IN to Springfield, IL.

- Leg 4: Lincoln Service route Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Fostoria & New York-Pittsburgh-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Youngstown, OH; Akron, OH; Fostoria, OH; Ft. Wayne, IN, 2nd New York-Lafayette train with Connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Decatur, IL; adds another frequency between Springfield, IL and St. Louis.

A Washington-St. Louis section can run via the NEC Washington-Philadelphia to split/combine with the NY section and swap electric/diesel locomotives. That would provide the single seat ride you seek from Baltimore to St. Louis.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 1: replace one of the two daily Missouri River Runners with the new NY/WAS-KC train.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 2: instead of running Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO, run instead Springfield, IL to WB Jct., MO via Hannibal, MO (via Norfolk Southern), then down the current Southwest Chief route into Kansas City (via BNSF Railway).

Can you think of any options that serve either Columbus and/or Cincinnati in between PGH and IND?

 

[Palmetto]

.

The most interesting thing about that list -- when was the discontinuation of the Wall Street, operated by the Reading from NY to Philadelphia? Did it get dropped in the Reading bankruptcy later in 1971?

It's also notable that the entire Erie, DL&W, Lehigh Valley, and CNJ networks were already gone. Upstate NY and PA got trashed even before Penn Central.

Another area that got trashed prior to the arrival of Amtrak was Northern New England. The B&M, Maine Central, and Bangor and Aroostook pulled out of long distance [such as than can be there] in the early 60's or so. It was once possible, for example to take a train from Boston to Halifax, NS on The Gull

 

[E60JPC]

There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!

I think there are 2 good options for possible routes from New York to St. Louis via Pittsburgh.

Option # 1

- Leg 1: The former Broadway Limited route which follows the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA, the current Capitol Limited route from Pittsburgh, PA to Alliance, OH, and continues west on Norfolk Southern to Crestline, OH.

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-Conrail/PC/NYC Big 4) Crestline, OH to Indianapolis, IN then, via the former National Limited route, to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Alliance-Crestline & New York-Pittsburgh-Indianapolis-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Canton, OH; Crestline, OH; 2nd New York-Indianapolis train with connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Greencastle, IN; Terre Haute, IN; connection to/from Illini, Saluki, City of New Orleans at Effingham, IL.

Option # 2

- Leg 1: The former Three Rivers route from New York, NY to Fostoria, OH, using the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA.

- Leg 2: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Nickel Plate) Fostoria, OH to Ft. Wayne, IN.

- Leg 3: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Wabash) Ft. Wayne, IN to Springfield, IL.

- Leg 4: Lincoln Service route Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Fostoria & New York-Pittsburgh-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Youngstown, OH; Akron, OH; Fostoria, OH; Ft. Wayne, IN, 2nd New York-Lafayette train with Connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Decatur, IL; adds another frequency between Springfield, IL and St. Louis.

A Washington-St. Louis section can run via the NEC Washington-Philadelphia to split/combine with the NY section and swap electric/diesel locomotives. That would provide the single seat ride you seek from Baltimore to St. Louis.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 1: replace one of the two daily Missouri River Runners with the new NY/WAS-KC train.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 2: instead of running Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO, run instead Springfield, IL to WB Jct., MO via Hannibal, MO (via Norfolk Southern), then down the current Southwest Chief route into Kansas City (via BNSF Railway).

Can you think of any options that serve either Columbus and/or Cincinnati in between PGH and IND?

- Leg 1: Pittsburgh, PA to Crestiline, OH on the former Broadway Limited route (NS)

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-C&O?) from Crestline, OH to Columbus, OH

- Leg 3: Columbus, OH to Dayton, OH on the former National Limited route (NS), though I don't know if there is a connection between the North-South CSX line and East-West NS line in Columbus. I'm assuming there is.

- Leg 4: CSX Dayton, OH to Hamilton, OH (ex-B&O)

- Leg 5: The current Cardinal route from Hamilton, OH to Indianapolis, IN (CSX)

This would add a 2nd train to Alliance, OH on the Capitol Limited route and restore service to the Ohio points of Canton & Crestline on the old Broadway Limited route as well as Columbus & Dayton on the old National Limited route. Seems like it might be slow and circuitous to route a train this way.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!

I think there are 2 good options for possible routes from New York to St. Louis via Pittsburgh.

Option # 1

- Leg 1: The former Broadway Limited route which follows the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA, the current Capitol Limited route from Pittsburgh, PA to Alliance, OH, and continues west on Norfolk Southern to Crestline, OH.

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-Conrail/PC/NYC Big 4) Crestline, OH to Indianapolis, IN then, via the former National Limited route, to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Alliance-Crestline & New York-Pittsburgh-Indianapolis-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Canton, OH; Crestline, OH; 2nd New York-Indianapolis train with connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Greencastle, IN; Terre Haute, IN; connection to/from Illini, Saluki, City of New Orleans at Effingham, IL.

Option # 2

- Leg 1: The former Three Rivers route from New York, NY to Fostoria, OH, using the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA.

- Leg 2: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Nickel Plate) Fostoria, OH to Ft. Wayne, IN.

- Leg 3: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Wabash) Ft. Wayne, IN to Springfield, IL.

- Leg 4: Lincoln Service route Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Fostoria & New York-Pittsburgh-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Youngstown, OH; Akron, OH; Fostoria, OH; Ft. Wayne, IN, 2nd New York-Lafayette train with Connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Decatur, IL; adds another frequency between Springfield, IL and St. Louis.

A Washington-St. Louis section can run via the NEC Washington-Philadelphia to split/combine with the NY section and swap electric/diesel locomotives. That would provide the single seat ride you seek from Baltimore to St. Louis.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 1: replace one of the two daily Missouri River Runners with the new NY/WAS-KC train.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 2: instead of running Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO, run instead Springfield, IL to WB Jct., MO via Hannibal, MO (via Norfolk Southern), then down the current Southwest Chief route into Kansas City (via BNSF Railway).

Can you think of any options that serve either Columbus and/or Cincinnati in between PGH and IND?

- Leg 1: Pittsburgh, PA to Crestiline, OH on the former Broadway Limited route (NS)

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-C&O?) from Crestline, OH to Columbus, OH

- Leg 3: Columbus, OH to Dayton, OH on the former National Limited route (NS), though I don't know if there is a connection between the North-South CSX line and East-West NS line in Columbus. I'm assuming there is.

- Leg 4: CSX Dayton, OH to Hamilton, OH (ex-B&O)

- Leg 5: The current Cardinal route from Hamilton, OH to Indianapolis, IN (CSX)

This would add a 2nd train to Alliance, OH on the Capitol Limited route and restore service to the Ohio points of Canton & Crestline on the old Broadway Limited route as well as Columbus & Dayton on the old National Limited route. Seems like it might be slow and circuitous to route a train this way.

True, PGH-Columbus-CIN (or Hamilton)-IND-STL looks zig zag like.

I think I discussed this in another post but what about CIN-Louisville-STL, skipping IND? Compared to your original lines, you are trading IND for Columbus, Dayton, and Louisville.

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

 

[E60JPC]

True, PGH-Columbus-CIN (or Hamilton)-IND-STL looks zig zag like.

I think I discussed this in another post but what about CIN-Louisville-STL, skipping IND? Compared to your original lines, you are trading IND for Columbus, Dayton, and Louisville.

Routing such a train via Louiville, KY would take it further off course between its endpoints.

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.

CHI-IND-CIN-Columbus-PGH-PHL-(NYP or WAS, whatever is more popular).

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

CIN to LVL to STL is pretty slow, about 10 hours long.

 

[E60JPC]

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.

CHI-IND-CIN-Columbus-PGH-PHL-(NYP or WAS, whatever is more popular).

The train would have to reverse direction in CIN in the midst of all the freight traffic in/out of Queensgate Yard. There would be a practical way to do that that wouldn't involve long reverse moves through the city, snarling freight traffic, then redundant route mileage Hamilton-Cincinnati-Hamilton. The latter is a 55 mile round-trip just to serve CIN. The eastern half of the route wouldn't be recognizable as anything resembling the Cardinal's present (or previous) route.

Perhaps a slightly smoother (from an operating standpoint) alternative would be to run the Cardinal on its current route from Chicago through South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY to Wheelersburg freight yard which has a turning loop that would allow the train to reverse direction then head back towards South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY, but crossing the Ohio River instead and following CSX through Chillicothe, OH (a former stop on the Shenandoah) and Columbus (a former stop on the National Limited) to Crestline (a former stop on the Broadway Limited), where the train can pick up Norfolk Southern's ex-PRR and follow the former Broadway Limited route to Pittsburgh, PA via the former Broadway Limited stop at Canton, OH and the current Capitol Limited stop in Alliance, OH.

That might work with freight railroad cooperation from CSX and Norfolk Southern. The problems with this routing though is that a large swath of southern WV and VA would lose train service, including Charleston, WV - the state capitol.

What would the train's routing be east of Pittsburgh? The 2 most realist possibilities are the Pennsylvanian route via Norfolk Southern+Amtrak to Philadelphia and NYC or the Capitol Limited route to DC via CSX.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.

CHI-IND-CIN-Columbus-PGH-PHL-(NYP or WAS, whatever is more popular).

The train would have to reverse direction in CIN in the midst of all the freight traffic in/out of Queensgate Yard. There would be a practical way to do that that wouldn't involve long reverse moves through the city, snarling freight traffic, then redundant route mileage Hamilton-Cincinnati-Hamilton. The latter is a 55 mile round-trip just to serve CIN. The eastern half of the route wouldn't be recognizable as anything resembling the Cardinal's present (or previous) route.

Perhaps a slightly smoother (from an operating standpoint) alternative would be to run the Cardinal on its current route from Chicago through South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY to Wheelersburg freight yard which has a turning loop that would allow the train to reverse direction then head back towards South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY, but crossing the Ohio River instead and following CSX through Chillicothe, OH (a former stop on the Shenandoah) and Columbus (a former stop on the National Limited) to Crestline (a former stop on the Broadway Limited), where the train can pick up Norfolk Southern's ex-PRR and follow the former Broadway Limited route to Pittsburgh, PA via the former Broadway Limited stop at Canton, OH and the current Capitol Limited stop in Alliance, OH.

That might work with freight railroad cooperation from CSX and Norfolk Southern. The problems with this routing though is that a large swath of southern WV and VA would lose train service, including Charleston, WV - the state capitol.

What would the train's routing be east of Pittsburgh? The 2 most realist possibilities are the Pennsylvanian route via Norfolk Southern+Amtrak to Philadelphia and NYC or the Capitol Limited route to DC via CSX.

My goal is to get from CIN to the East Coast daily and as fast as possible. It wouldn't hurt if there is a CHI-NEC train that takes the Pennsylvanian route either to give most of PA a direct train to CHI which doesn't exist now.

With the tracks east of CIN rumored of being downgraded to 30 mph the trip that way would take even longer than it does now and something (Buckingham Branch?) is stopping the Cardinal from going daily now. The current Cardinal from NYP-CHI takes 28 hr 20 min. If that gets beyond 30 hrs I don't see how it would be practical. Plus, lack of daily service is a problem.

 

[E60JPC]

My goal is to get from CIN to the East Coast daily and as fast as possible. It wouldn't hurt if there is a CHI-NEC train that takes the Pennsylvanian route either to give most of PA a direct train to CHI which doesn't exist now.

I think maybe the best way to go from Cincinnati to the NEC currenlty would be CSX up the Cardinal route to Hamilton (25 miles), then head towards Dayton at the fork in the route (the Cardinal turns west here towards Indianapolis).

In a bygone era, the National Limited route would have been the most direct route from Dayton - 702 miles to NYC via PGH, PHL.

Among the 3 possible remaining route options:

1. Cincinnati-Dayton-Cleveland (CSX Big 4), then 618 miles via the Lake Shore Limited route to NYC via Buffalo, Albany.

2. Cincinnati-Dayton-Greenwich (CSX Big 4), then 618 miles via the former Three Rivers route to NYC via Pittsburgh, Philadelphia.*

3. Cincinnati-Dayton-Crestline (CSX Big 4), then 627 miles via the former Broadway Limited route to NYC via Pittsburgh, Philadelphia.

*Assuming Greenwich to be halfway between Akron and Fostoria.

Since the Dayton-Crestline distance is the shortest distance to an intercept point going east from Ohio, this should be the preferred route.

With the tracks east of CIN rumored of being downgraded to 30 mph the trip that way would take even longer than it does now and something (Buckingham Branch?) is stopping the Cardinal from going daily now. The current Cardinal from NYP-CHI takes 28 hr 20 min. If that gets beyond 30 hrs I don't see how it would be practical. Plus, lack of daily service is a problem.

In order to preserve as much of the Cardinal's current route as possible, the train could run from Chicago to Clifton Forge on its current route, then continue east on CSX instead of via Buckingham Branch. The train would pass through Lynchburg and could turn on a wye south of the current Kemper St. Station, then turn north, running on the Crescent's route from Lynchburg to NYC.

Another option would be to run the Cardinal from Chicago to Huntington, then run north on CSX along the Ohio River to Parkesburg, WV, then east on the former Shenandoah route to Cumberland, then on to DC via the current Capitol Limited route. A throughway bus connection could be established between Charleston and Huntington, WV.