Could a first class premium train attract enough riders?

[Larry H.]

The discussion of the Heritage cars made me sentimental about the days when trains were truly rolling hotels with hot competition for exciting interior appointments.. The Experience with the Empire Builder, a rather modest upgrade by most standards, seems to point up a demand for decent and higher class service. I am wondering if any routes could possibly support a premium fare, first class operation such as the Super Chief of old or the original Panama Limited. Could it actually increase ridership rather than loosing it? These would probably have to be seperate sections, or perhaps as in old, the first class section would truly be first class passengers complete with seperate dinner and lounge. Just dreaming I am sure. But if the Empire Builder is drawing such a crowd maybe there is a demand?

 

[MrFSS]

The discussion of the Heritage cars made me sentimental about the days when trains were truly rolling hotels with hot competition for exciting interior appointments.. The Experience with the Empire Builder, a rather modest upgrade by most standards, seems to point up a demand for decent and higher class service. I am wondering if any routes could possibly support a premium fare, first class operation such as the Super Chief of old or the original Panama Limited. Could it actually increase ridership rather than loosing it? These would probably have to be separate sections, or perhaps as in old, the first class section would truly be first class passengers complete with separate dinner and lounge. Just dreaming I am sure. But if the Empire Builder is drawing such a crowd maybe there is a demand?

Don't forget The Canadian is sort of what you are talking about. The coach and sleeper classes are completely segregated, each with their own dome car and diner car. Coach passenger are not allowed in any of the sleeper cars at all. It uses old 50's equipment and in the summer a train can be from 20 - 25 cars in length. They do quite well and the prices charged reflect the service you get, too.
If you are interested, pictures from my trip several years ago are HERE.

 

[XNWA]

The discussion of the Heritage cars made me sentimental about the days when trains were truly rolling hotels with hot competition for exciting interior appointments.. The Experience with the Empire Builder, a rather modest upgrade by most standards, seems to point up a demand for decent and higher class service. I am wondering if any routes could possibly support a premium fare, first class operation such as the Super Chief of old or the original Panama Limited. Could it actually increase ridership rather than loosing it? These would probably have to be seperate sections, or perhaps as in old, the first class section would truly be first class passengers complete with seperate dinner and lounge. Just dreaming I am sure. But if the Empire Builder is drawing such a crowd maybe there is a demand?

I for one would be very interested in this type of first class travel.

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

The discussion of the Heritage cars made me sentimental about the days when trains were truly rolling hotels with hot competition for exciting interior appointments.. The Experience with the Empire Builder, a rather modest upgrade by most standards, seems to point up a demand for decent and higher class service. I am wondering if any routes could possibly support a premium fare, first class operation such as the Super Chief of old or the original Panama Limited. Could it actually increase ridership rather than loosing it? These would probably have to be seperate sections, or perhaps as in old, the first class section would truly be first class passengers complete with seperate dinner and lounge. Just dreaming I am sure. But if the Empire Builder is drawing such a crowd maybe there is a demand?

Do you mean that there would still be normal sleeping car "first class" service, as ther is now, and that the premium service would be an addition? Or woulod it be the only type of "first clas" offered?

One issue that hasn't been brought up is the cost for passengers. Sice sleeper fares are already rising, this new service's fares would probably be over the top. Probably not too many people would be willing to pay even more in addition to their railfare, there might not be enough passengers using this service to constitute an additional diner or sightseer lounge.

 

[Larry H.]

If it were based on the original concept of first class rail service the additional fare you paid for a room included the additional dinner and lounge. As you point out, and so have I on ocassion, the fares can be pretty hefty already. Those who support that say there is the demand for those fares, thus it would seem that added incentive of an actual first class seperate service would be a reason to travel in this manner. I have always thought the high room fares coupled with dinner lite, wasn't a very good bargain.. But as the empire builder has shown if increased benifits such as real prepared meals and wine and cheese tastings seem to be drawing a crowd that perhaps is being untapped on other routes. Thus my thought processs of the possible question of what would returning to first class service do to ridership? A truly first class train in the old days was an all pullman train.. But many ran with completety seperate class sections. Perhaps for those inclined to want a cheaper coach fare that part of a combined train could use a combination diner/lounge that is being developed, that would only add one car to the coach set, then the first class and perhaps slightly higher fare section could include the full service lounge and diner, perhaps with more of a pacific parlor type lounge since it wouldn't be overun with coach passengers. A train like that could use the regular set of engines. If your running a complete seperate train then you would have the cost of completely seperate operating expenses.

Actually now that I think of it the concept allready exist in the first class lounges offered by amtrak to first class passengers. if they would just take that concept where it also belongs, onto the trains it would be quite an improvement to me.

Someone recently posted a photo of a Cascades car interior with a comment on how nice it looked. It isn't rocket science to create an attractive interior instead of robot like similar cold designs..

Which I realize will probably never really happen but its fun to dream.

 

[AlanB]

Well technically the CS has for years to some extent been catering to the first class passenger, in the form of the Pacific Parlour Car (PPC). While there were no upgraded sleepers, this program nonetheless was a huge sucess. So much so, that despite the horrible time keeping from last year, the CS did not loose near as many riders as I would have expected. A train that arrives nearly a day late on occasion, and typically is 6 to 10 hours late, does not have a good reputation and therefore typically ridership suffers.

Yet the CS did not suffer near as badly as one would have expected. Part of that I'm sure is the scenery, but part of that I believe was the reputation for service that the CS had built over the years, as well as the PPC.

I think that Amtrak would have to be careful not to get crazy with the fares, and the improvements would not need to be as dramatic as buying all new everything for a higher level service. Things could come gradually, but I do think that it would work.

The problem is that would also give Amtrak opponents more ammunition since they already call Amtrak a land cruise.

Mind you the sleepers already cover their operating expenses, and anyone riding in a sleeper requires less of a subsidy for the railfare, than does anyone riding in coach. So if handled right, it could potentially be something that brings in more money for Amtrak and helps to cover more of the operating costs. I personally don't think that we'll ever see this happen, but who knows.

I do know that Amtrak is still trying to improve things. Emmett Fermaux mentioned at the recent NARP meetings that he's trying to upgrade the Capitol Limited, including getting it the newly remodeled sleepers. Unfortunately for him, right now he can't exactly market these changes because of the horrible on time performance of the Capitol.

 

[Sam Damon]

Actually, a "first class premium train" is being tried, but not by Amtrak. Surf here.

Whether people want to pay those prices is another matter entirely. If Amtrak had more and better equipment, would its equation change? Hard to say.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Perhaps something like the slumbercoaches, or whatever they called them, that were a kind of 'tween service, or a "sleeper lite" service, at an intermediate price, with or without meals included, might fly. They could bump up actual first class price a bit and maybe add some amenities, and the "sleeper lite" service would allow more folks from coach that just can't handle regular sleeper prices to still get a much more comfortable overnight or several-day trip. It would require some new equipment, but they're going to HAVE to buy some new equipment anyway, sooner or later. There's only so much that duct tape and WD-40 can accomplish, even in the hands of a skilled mechanic.

 

[Mark]

I love this idea. I would absolutely love to see a pure sleeper 'limited' train. I think it could be done, the problem is as usual: equipment and of course letting 'extra' Amtrak trains run over the freights.

Chicago-NYC. Its only already around a 19 hour trip. Assuming, (for fun), the above are not a problem:

A second Lake Shore is added. 16 intermediate stops are eliminated at approximately 5 minutes per stop, cuts the run down by 80 minutes, (perhaps even more). It stops only at Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo-Depew, Albany-Renn, and NYC. This one should start about 6 hours earlier than the previous schedule at say around 430pm, from Chicago. All of the stops would be hit a 'humane' times and an AM arrival into NYC could be achieved inbetween rush hours both in Chicago and NYC. It would be six viewliners, (3 up front Diner,Lounge and 3 in back), based on destination. so those going all the way wouldn't be bothered by those boarding in the later hours. The Capitol could follow suit but with superliners instead.

M

 

[jphjaxfl]

The labor costs, today, of operating a true first class, sleepers only train similar to the Super Chief, Panama LTD or Broadway LTD of the 1960s and before would be prohibitive. There would probably not be enough passengers who would be willing to pay the necessary fare to have the crew to passenger ratio that those trains had. The service would need to be significantly better than what Amtrak offers today. Having traveled on the Super Chief when it was all Pullman in the 1960s and the 20th Century LTD in the 1950s, I can tell you that Amtrak service is not even at 50% of what those trains were like and the difference incost between coach service and sleeping car service is much higher now than it was then. If one of the premier hotel companies like Four Seasons or Ritz Carelton could be hired to provide on board services such as Sleeping Car, Dining and Lounge Services and if the trains could run on a fast, onetime schedule, and the fare was reasonable, it might work. The Broadway LTD and the 20th Century LTD actually refunded the extra fare to passengers if the trains were late. Both had schedules of 15 1/2 to 16 hours for the 907 mile (PRR) and 960 mile (NYC) New York to Chicago route. I don't see this realistically happening in the near term.

 

[Larry H.]

I agree that the cost of true first class travel was much less in comparison to coach than today. A first class room was only about a third more than coach, you can't say that today.. Yet if there is real first class service as you mentioned, then as seen on the Empire Builder there could be a demand that is being unmet today. I for one have not cared to spend the amount of money it takes to go sleeper today and then have shabby appointments and service along with radar range food. I don't think any successful company is built on charging higher prices and delivering less. Getting the goverment involved in rail passenger service may have been the only way to save it, but it has turned out to be a poor way to run a rail road.

 

[Sam Damon]

I love this idea. I would absolutely love to see a pure sleeper 'limited' train. I think it could be done, the problem is as usual: equipment and of course letting 'extra' Amtrak trains run over the freights.

Rolling stock may prove a problem for Amtrak sooner rather than later.

It seems of late quite a number of communities have ideas for intercity rail passenger service, and some may even commit the funds to run trains. Problem is, where's the rolling stock? Amtrak has problems right now when a carline is bad-ordered. Add some new services, and... it could get ugly quickly.

 

[PRR 60]

I have often wished there was a happy medium between the luxurious but long and meandering land cruise service of GrandLuxe Rail Journeys (what used to be American Orient Express) and the bare-bones service offered by Amtrak. I would like to see a standalone train, operated maybe once or twice a week, from New York to Chicago and on to LA or SF with only sleepers, a real lounge car, and a real diner with tables for two and four. Afternoon receptions, evening get-togethers with drinks and entertainment would all be part of the package. Meals, wine, soft drinks all included. Only liquor, mixed drinks, and non-meal snacks extra. Cash bar open all evening until midnight.

I would like to take credit (or blame) for this plan, but I can't. This was the operating plan of the American-European Express (which later morphed into the AOE) in the early 1990's. The AEE ran luxury train service between New York and Chicago, first tacked onto the Broadway Limited, and later as a stand-alone train from Washington to Chicago on the Cardinal route (with the NYP-WAS segment on the back of a corridor train). My wife and I rode the AEE in 1991 from Philadelphia to Chicago. It was a sensational ride. Food was unbelievable. They had lamb chops at breakfast! There was a piano bar. The on-board service was out of this world. On the back was a an observation car from the Twentieth Century Limited.

Sadly, the service ended later in 1991, and not because of ridership. A grade crossing accident in Indiana damaged several cars. The AEE had to curtail service and refund reservations. Revenue was lost, fixed costs still came due, and the service went under. A real pity. They had already announced and were booking a winter service from New York to Florida. I really believe it would have done great. We'll never know, but I believe there is a market willing to pay for a ride a step or two above the Amtrak experience.

 

[MrFSS]

My wife and I rode the AEE in 1991 from Philadelphia to Chicago. It was a sensational ride. Food was unbelievable. They had lamb chops at breakfast! There was a piano bar. The on-board service was out of this world. On the back was a an observation car from the Twentieth Century Limited.

What was the cost of a trip such as this? In today's dollars would there be enough passenger base to support it on a regular basis?
I have ridden the Rocky Mountaineer, first class, and it seemed to be full. Maybe there would be demand for a train across America on a 2-3 times weekly run. The cost would per person would be something, though.

 

[XNWA]

I have often wished there was a happy medium between the luxurious but long and meandering land cruise service of GrandLuxe Rail Journeys (what used to be American Orient Express) and the bare-bones service offered by Amtrak. I would like to see a standalone train, operated maybe once or twice a week, from New York to Chicago and on to LA or SF with only sleepers, a real lounge car, and a real diner with tables for two and four. Afternoon receptions, evening get-togethers with drinks and entertainment would all be part of the package. Meals, wine, soft drinks all included. Only liquor, mixed drinks, and non-meal snacks extra. Cash bar open all evening until midnight.
I would like to take credit (or blame) for this plan, but I can't. This was the operating plan of the American-European Express (which later morphed into the AOE) in the early 1990's. The AEE ran luxury train service between New York and Chicago, first tacked onto the Broadway Limited, and later as a stand-alone train from Washington to Chicago on the Cardinal route (with the NYP-WAS segment on the back of a corridor train). My wife and I rode the AEE in 1991 from Philadelphia to Chicago. It was a sensational ride. Food was unbelievable. They had lamb chops at breakfast! There was a piano bar. The on-board service was out of this world. On the back was a an observation car from the Twentieth Century Limited.

Sadly, the service ended later in 1991, and not because of ridership. A grade crossing accident in Indiana damaged several cars. The AEE had to curtail service and refund reservations. Revenue was lost, fixed costs still came due, and the service went under. A real pity. They had already announced and were booking a winter service from New York to Florida. I really believe it would have done great. We'll never know, but I believe there is a market willing to pay for a ride a step or two above the Amtrak experience.

I would love to see some type of service between GrandLuxe and the bare bones service Amtrak offers now. What you are talking about would be great and I would be willing to pay more money to Amtrak rather then spending my money on VIA Rail.

 

[printman2000]

Seems to me the cheapest way would be Amtrak adding additional cars to its train. They could add three or four cars that would be sectioned off from the rest of the train. Maybe a couple of sleepers, dining and observation.

I know it is not gonna happen, but if it were, this would be the way to go. Maybe Pullman ought to go back into business!

 

[PRR 60]

My wife and I rode the AEE in 1991 from Philadelphia to Chicago. It was a sensational ride. Food was unbelievable. They had lamb chops at breakfast! There was a piano bar. The on-board service was out of this world. On the back was a an observation car from the Twentieth Century Limited.

What was the cost of a trip such as this? In today's dollars would there be enough passenger base to support it on a regular basis?
I have ridden the Rocky Mountaineer, first class, and it seemed to be full. Maybe there would be demand for a train across America on a 2-3 times weekly run. The cost would per person would be something, though.

We paid about $400 each in 1991 for the AEE trip. However, that was half price. The AEE had a last minute booking promotion that offered a 50% discount for reservations made within 3 days of travel. So full fare was $800 per person for the one night Chicago trip.

I can remember calling multiple times to see how things looked for the 3 day discount. The trip was a surprise for our 20th anniversary, so the date was firm. Three days advance arrived: I called: three rooms were left. Booked a bedroom. Done.

 

[Larry H.]

Seems to me the cheapest way would be Amtrak adding additional cars to its train. They could add three or four cars that would be sectioned off from the rest of the train. Maybe a couple of sleepers, dining and observation.

Yes as I suggested earlier, the simplest and probably cheapest thing would be the simple addition of a combination dinner/lounge for the coach passengers use and then upgrade the dinner lounge cars , or a fan tail, would be nice. In reality it would only take one extra car per train if you figured that they already plan to eliminate the lounge on long distance, so the only non revenue car would be that coach dinner lounge. Of course a few extra pullmans would be nice.

I don't know if things would be different or not, but the anything goes situation in many coach cars would thus be stopped at the first class section, which is as it used to always be. Not so many drunk college kids, or loud cell phones perhaps, although things have changed so much that even a first class section probably wouldn't be free of unthinking passengers..

 

[frj1983]

I love this idea. I would absolutely love to see a pure sleeper 'limited' train. I think it could be done, the problem is as usual: equipment and of course letting 'extra' Amtrak trains run over the freights.

Rolling stock may prove a problem for Amtrak sooner rather than later.

It seems of late quite a number of communities have ideas for intercity rail passenger service, and some may even commit the funds to run trains. Problem is, where's the rolling stock? Amtrak has problems right now when a carline is bad-ordered. Add some new services, and... it could get ugly quickly.

I agree Sam,

I think rolling stock is the big bugaboo waiting to clobber Amtrak.

Last night(while riding Metra), I noted that 5 lower level coaches are sitting in the dead line In Chicago with an additional Superliner Coach attached. How many are sitting dead at Beach Grove? I don't see any expansion as possible because I just don't think the equipment is there. I wonder when Alex Kummant will raise the point about needing capital monies for new equipment? Annnnnnnnnd, what company will Amtrak contract with to build the next generation of Superliners/Viewliners. Having had a rather contentious relationship with Bombardier over the last number of years, who else would even be available to build new rolling stock?

I have the feeling that this is another way that the current adminstration is hoping Amtrak will die. Don't give 'em much capital and watch the cars fall apart with no way to replace or repair them fast enough. "See we told you, Amtrak is so incompetent that they can't even keep their equipment in good condition. So in the interest of public safety, we must suspend all Amtrak service!" or something like that........

 

[AlanB]

Last night(while riding Metra), I noted that 5 lower level coaches are sitting in the dead line In Chicago with an additional Superliner Coach attached. How many are sitting dead at Beach Grove? I don't see any expansion as possible because I just don't think the equipment is there. I wonder when Alex Kummant will raise the point about needing capital monies for new equipment? Annnnnnnnnd, what company will Amtrak contract with to build the next generation of Superliners/Viewliners. Having had a rather contentious relationship with Bombardier over the last number of years, who else would even be available to build new rolling stock?

I'm sure that Amtrak would have no problems getting Bombardier to build the new cars, although I suspect this time that the Bom won't provide some give away's to get the contract. And if Amtrak wants to continue the Superliner line, they will have no choice but to go to the Bom, as they own the blue prints and patents on the Superliner.

But there are other choices too, including Talgo, Kawasaki, and probably a few others.

 

[PRR 60]

...I have the feeling that this is another way that the current adminstration is hoping Amtrak will die. Don't give 'em much capital and watch the cars fall apart with no way to replace or repair them fast enough. "See we told you, Amtrak is so incompetent that they can't even keep their equipment in good condition. So in the interest of public safety, we must suspend all Amtrak service!" or something like that........

Last fiscal year (10/1/05 to 9/30/06), about 250 cars of all types were overhauled or re-manufactured by Amtrak. Another 250 cars are planned for this year. The budget for that work is over $100 million each year. That does not seem to me to be an effort to allow Amtrak equipment to fall apart.

 

[AlanB]

...I have the feeling that this is another way that the current adminstration is hoping Amtrak will die. Don't give 'em much capital and watch the cars fall apart with no way to replace or repair them fast enough. "See we told you, Amtrak is so incompetent that they can't even keep their equipment in good condition. So in the interest of public safety, we must suspend all Amtrak service!" or something like that........

Last fiscal year (10/1/05 to 9/30/06), about 250 cars of all types were overhauled or re-manufactured by Amtrak. Another 250 cars are planned for this year. The budget for that work is over $100 million each year. That does not seem to me to be an effort to allow Amtrak equipment to fall apart.

And for anyone who's curious, I provided a breakdown of the long distance cars worked on during fiscal 2006 over in this topic. Note: Bill's numbers include all types of cars, whereas my breakdown is only for the long distance fleet.

 

[Guest]

Making a true First Class out of the existing Superliner Service would be easy.

Add a single level sleeper for crew and convert the Trans Dorms to full FIRST passenger service.

Add a Diner/Lounge for Coach (oops, stole that one)

Convert the current Lounge to FIRST ONLY, and add it ahead of the Diner.

Split the DINER into FIRST and COACH sections.

This change could be easily done with TWO additional staff members, and if done correctly, one could charge more for the FIRST and SLEEPER service and find people very willing to pay.

With some additional amenities, I would.

SO, that consist would be

Engine (1+)

Baggage

Crew Single Level

Trans Dorm/Premium Class

Sleeper/First Class

Lounge (Prem & First)

Diner (split service)

Diner/Lounge (Coach)

Coach (2+)

only concern would be through cars, like 21/421. how to accommodate three classes in through service.

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

Making a true First Class out of the existing Superliner Service would be easy.
Add a single level sleeper for crew and convert the Trans Dorms to full FIRST passenger service.

Add a Diner/Lounge for Coach (oops, stole that one)

Convert the current Lounge to FIRST ONLY, and add it ahead of the Diner.

Split the DINER into FIRST and COACH sections.

This change could be easily done with TWO additional staff members, and if done correctly, one could charge more for the FIRST and SLEEPER service and find people very willing to pay.

With some additional amenities, I would.

SO, that consist would be

Engine (1+)

Baggage

Crew Single Level

Trans Dorm/Premium Class

Sleeper/First Class

Lounge (Prem & First)

Diner (split service)

Diner/Lounge (Coach)

Coach (2+)

only concern would be through cars, like 21/421. how to accommodate three classes in through service.

What about those passengers in coach? Doesn't a family who can't afford a sleeper or premium class deserve to admire the Rockies, Sierra Nevadas, Pacific etc. through a Sightseer lounge? It seems to me that this would be class discrimination at its best, since the coach passengers would be limited to half the diner and the diner lounge.

 

[AlanB]

What about those passengers in coach? Doesn't a family who can't afford a sleeper or premium class deserve to admire the Rockies, Sierra Nevadas, Pacific etc. through a Sightseer lounge? It seems to me that this would be class discrimination at its best, since the coach passengers would be limited to half the diner and the diner lounge.

I'm guessing here, that guest meant Diner-Lite when he said Diner/Lounge. In that case, assuming that Amtrak does go ahead with its current plans, all Sightseer Lounges would be converted to Diner-Lite configuration. So technically everyone would be using a similar car to take in the view.

Even if Amtrak held back converting some Sightseer Lounges for a premium service, those in coach would still be in a Sightseer Lounge, just one that was reconfigured differently for seating and service.