Crew Dorm Retirement

[eliyahu]

folks,

i haven't seen much discussion of this issue here, so i'd like to get the ball rolling. with amtrak now retiring the heritage dorm/lounge cars on the LSL, cardinal, crescent, and silver service LD routes, the company will now house them in the existing viewliner sleepers. with the LSL already being reduced to just two viewliners, i cannot imagine how expensive those rooms are going to become. for many dates, getting a bedroom is already near impossible.

so let us try to understand exactly what amtrak management is thinking. are the incremental and maintainance costs of operating the dedicated crew cars that much higher such that the lost revenue shrunken sleeper capacity will offset those costs? will crew members at least have to split the roomettes, or will each crew member get their own compartment? this just seems ridiculous to me, and even more galling on the LSL where they will be operating soon without the third sleeper.

somebody please explain the logic here.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

 

[AlanB]

Well first off no one has ever suggested that Amtrak's decisions are always logical. :blink:

That said, those cars are in many cases 50+ years old. So there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm not enough of an expert to say that that point has been reached, but it wouldn't surprise me if indeed it has.

Next, I understand that the union contract requires private rooms, therefore no sharing. This might have been one other reason for pushing SDS and Diner Lite, reducing the crew size and therefore the number of rooms used by the crew.

As for bedrooms being hard to get, that is always been a problem with the single level trains and is not a result of the crew being on board. The crew does not get bedrooms, unless they go unsold.

Finally, with regard to the Lake Shore, it is part of the normal plan for the LSL to run with only two sleepers in the winter, the extra sleeper goes over to Silver Service since the passenger load is heavier there. The third sleeper should return to the LSL sometime in late spring in time for the summer peak.

 

[eliyahu]

Well first off no one has ever suggested that Amtrak's decisions are always logical. :blink:
That said, those cars are in many cases 50+ years old. So there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm not enough of an expert to say that that point has been reached, but it wouldn't surprise me if indeed it has.

Next, I understand that the union contract requires private rooms, therefore no sharing. This might have been one other reason for pushing SDS and Diner Lite, reducing the crew size and therefore the number of rooms used by the crew.

i certainly understand that refurbing the dorms would require some outlay of capital -- VIA has had to spend a fair amount to keep its 40+ year cars running -- but taking up half the roomettes on (in the winter) one of two sleepers? over time, is the loss of revenue really less than the cost of an alternative for crew housing?

As for bedrooms being hard to get, that is always been a problem with the single level trains and is not a result of the crew being on board. The crew does not get bedrooms, unless they go unsold.

well, that at least is good to hear.

Finally, with regard to the Lake Shore, it is part of the normal plan for the LSL to run with only two sleepers in the winter, the extra sleeper goes over to Silver Service since the passenger load is heavier there. The third sleeper should return to the LSL sometime in late spring in time for the summer peak.

ok. that also sounds better. many thanks for the clarifications, alan!

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

 

[battalion51]

Is it cheaper over time, the apparent answer would seem to be yes. The cost of parts for this fleet is very very high, and ideally they would have been replaced with new cars years, ago. Unfortunately this did not happen. The parts required by law and functionality are no longer manufacturered and must be hand produced, which is very expensive and time consuming to accomplish. As Dining services change the number of rooms will be greatly reduced allowing more of the rooms in the car to be used for revenue.

 

[Trogdor]

When will/did the Lake Shore go to two sleepers? I rode it a week ago tonight, and the train had three (plus a crew dorm).

 

[AlanB]

When will/did the Lake Shore go to two sleepers? I rode it a week ago tonight, and the train had three (plus a crew dorm).

I actually don't know that it did drop to two sleepers, I was simply responding to what was already posted. However, in the past that is what Amtrak used to do, steal one sleeper for the Silver Service during the winter months.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

One would hope that if the congressional plan to fully fund Amtrak on a multi-year plan does in fact pass, that Management would look at such things as whether sleepers are sold out on a regular basis on some trains, and would therefore generate substantial additional revenue if the rooms were available, and, if so, order some new cars. In fact, one would hope that if Management actually takes the time and effort to get an objective, detailed look at operations, that they would increase their funding request to cover that particular problem. All the advertising, good service, and anything else, including targeted and effective marketing, whatever, doesn't do a dang bit of good if you don't have product to sell. And what they are about to do is reduce the amount of high-profit-margin product that is available for purchase. Any time and any place where their shortage of available equipment means they lose sales, it is a huge problem that needs fixed pronto. You can't grow a business that doesn't have the product available to sell. Maybe, just maybe, the new broom will sweep clean enough to discover this, and will have the guts to do something about it.

 

[eliyahu]

When will/did the Lake Shore go to two sleepers? I rode it a week ago tonight, and the train had three (plus a crew dorm).

on the LSL run of december 4th there were only two sleepers (although for a different reason). when i asked about it, the attendant told us that amtrak was pulling the third sleeper anyway soon. i didn't ask why, but noticed a forwarded note from amtrak management to OBS crews regarding consist changes noted this as well.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

 

[Amtrak Kid]

I believe amtrak was refurbing all the dorms, as they all got new paint and where in beech grove. Why upgrade them if they're going to end up as dust in the wind?

Corey

 

[lepearso]

I understand that the company that built the viewliners is no longer in the passenger rail business. However, is it possible that company somewhere in the US or Canada could build a series of Viewliner lookalikes to serve as dormitory/sleepers?

What I'm getting at is this: we know that the old dormitories must be retired, and we know that Amtrak's viewliner pool is almost too small and is going to get smaller when crews start occupying revenue spaces. So, why not follow the same logic that goes into the Superliner Transition Sleepers? Build about a dozen-and-a-half viewliner successors with half of the car devoted to roomette space and half of the car devoted to crew dorm space.

The next question will obviously be "who's gonna pay for it." Quite obviously, Amtrak. Don't laugh, because Amtrak is more likely to make a good sell by investing in something that benefits the workforce than it is just to increase revenue and capacity. The latter will happen, but the former is more likely to give reason for spending some extra money.

Now picture this: an extra half-car of sleeper capacity on every single-level Amtrak route in the country!

 

[battalion51]

New Viewliners most certainly can be built. They simply just have to take the specs and transfer them to whoever the new contractor is. A similar thing happened with the Superliners. I believe Pullman built the Superliner I's and Bombardier built the Superliner II's. I'm not suggesting that I don't think they should have Dorms, I'm just saying that given the current financial situation it's just not in the cards.

As for the Dorms that recieved new paint and so on, I believe they plan on keeping these cars around a while longer for use on heavy volume routes such as the Silver Meteor.

 

[AlanB]

Now picture this: an extra half-car of sleeper capacity on every single-level Amtrak route in the country!

Amtrak had that luxury for over 10 years on every Superliner route in the country and never used it! :blink: The Superliner Trans/Dorms were designed and built to support both crew and passenger rooms in the car. It wasn't until David Gunn came along that Amtrak finally stopped wasting that revenue space, at least on some routes. That's a lot of lost revenue with 8 rooms per train over 10 years.

 

[eliyahu]

Amtrak had that luxury for over 10 years on every Superliner route in the country and never used it! :blink: The Superliner Trans/Dorms were designed and built to support both crew and passenger rooms in the car. It wasn't until David Gunn came along that Amtrak finally stopped wasting that revenue space, at least on some routes. That's a lot of lost revenue with 8 rooms per train over 10 years.

they still sell revenue space in the dorms on the texas eagle and city of new orleans, and those roomettes are just as good as in the traditional sleepers IMO. to my knowledge (based on a missive from the NARP), the following trains will be losing the dorm cars within the next thirty days:

• California Zephyr
  
• Coast Starlight
  
• Lake Shore Limited (3rd sleeper will be used for crew, reopened to revenue passengers in april)
  
• Silver Star
  
• Silver Meteor
  

does anyone have additional detail they can add to this list?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

 

[igor]

Amtrak had that luxury for over 10 years on every Superliner route in the country and never used it!

When I rode the Empire builder from Portland to Chicago in the late 90's I was in transition sleeper, which

had a crew lounge downstairs, with the lower level filled with crew.

they still sell revenue space in the dorms on the texas eagle and city of new orleans

I rode the City of New Orleans north at the beginning of December, and there were 6 cars:

A crew sleeper, the diner, lounge, 2 coaches and a revenue sleeper. I was in the sleeper on the rear,

and it wasn't being used for crew. I don't know if this is the usual consist.

 

[Trogdor]

to my knowledge (based on a missive from the NARP), the following trains will be losing the dorm cars within the next thirty days:

• California Zephyr
  
• Coast Starlight
  
• Lake Shore Limited (3rd sleeper will be used for crew, reopened to revenue passengers in april)
  
• Silver Star
  
• Silver Meteor
  

does anyone have additional detail they can add to this list?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

I'd heard some ramblings that Amtrak might try to convert some of the transition sleepers into baggage-dorm cars (similar to the coach-baggage cars). This would make sense, considering the age of the existing baggage car fleet, and the fact that a coach-baggage doesn't provide as much capacity as a regular baggage car.

Not sure what will happen with the baggage cars on single-level trains, but perhaps there are just enough halfway-decent baggage cars left to equip those trains, with Superliner baggage cars running on the western routes.

 

[AlanB]

I'd heard some ramblings that Amtrak might try to convert some of the transition sleepers into baggage-dorm cars (similar to the coach-baggage cars). This would make sense, considering the age of the existing baggage car fleet, and the fact that a coach-baggage doesn't provide as much capacity as a regular baggage car.

I'm curious if you know how it is that a converted trans/dorm would have any more room for baggage than a converted coach would?

Overall the layouts of the lower level are the same, so I'm not sure how one type of car would have more room than the other. In one case you're taking out a bunch of seats, in the other case you're taking out the crew's breakroom and maybe a bedroom. So the later would actually seem to require more work, only to gain the same amount of space.

 

[Trogdor]

I wasn't implying that the transition sleeper would have more baggage space than a coach-baggage would. But, a coach-baggage plus a baggage-dorm would provide more capacity than a coach-baggage alone.

 

[AlanB]

I wasn't implying that the transition sleeper would have more baggage space than a coach-baggage would. But, a coach-baggage plus a baggage-dorm would provide more capacity than a coach-baggage alone.

Ah, I got it. I thought that you meant that it would be replacing the coach-bag.

Thanks.