Crying Shame the Sunset Doesn't Run East of NOL

[rrdude]

After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.

Economic sense? Not gonna go there.

Operational sense?. Less equipment.

Political sense? Apparently the Gulf Coast has none............

Please, this topic has been "discussed to death" and has been beaten to death. If it happens, it happens. But no need to post............

 

[leemell]

After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.

Economic sense? Not gonna go there.

Operational sense?. Less equipment.

Political sense? Apparently the Gulf Coast has none............

Please, this topic has been "discussed to death" and has been beaten to death. If it happens, it happens. But no need to post............

Then why this post other than to just vent.

 

[zepherdude]

rrdude

its not criminal

it is just not gonna happen

so why bring it up

 

[dlagrua]

Apparently Amtrak doesn't believe that they can make any money on the extended Sunset Ltd from NOL to ORL. The trackage is in place and supporting freight traffic. Some upgrading to the stations and signaling on the route may be needed but it can be good to go for passenger service in short order.

There might be some demand, Florida supports it but Amtrak is convinced that there isn't, and the states along the line aren't willing to subsidize the costs of restoring service. Dead issue for now, but if passenger rail keeps growing at its current pace who knows?

 

[had8ley]

Apparently Amtrak doesn't believe that they can make any money on the extended Sunset Ltd from NOL to ORL. The trackage is in place and supporting freight traffic. Some upgrading to the stations and signaling on the route may be needed but it can be good to go for passenger service in short order.

There might be some demand, Florida supports it but Amtrak is convinced that there isn't, and the states along the line aren't willing to subsidize the costs of restoring service. Dead issue for now, but if passenger rail keeps growing at its current pace who knows?

Amtrak paid the CSXT a tighty sum for signalling and siding extensions before they turned the first wheel towards Florida. Station rehalitation ??? BALONEY~ Amtrak sold the Mobile depot and surrouding grounds to a developer and then grabbed a bull horn and told everybody they had no facilities in Mobile (and other locations that really weren't waiting rooms), but didn't tell anyone about the sale. Katrina hit August 29th, 2005 and the CSXT had the RR up and running April 15th of 2006 (and there several bridges that needed heavy repairs.) Now that's over 5 years ago. The O/T and deadheads and free pax meals were a nightmare with 16-24, or more, hour delays coming off the UP and if you add that into the $407 dollar figure that is being thrown around today as a per pax loss on the Sunset you can see why Amtrak ain't racing to go east of NOL. If they cut their heads in and ran the good OTP of the CONO and swung it east it would alleviate the nightmares the UP created for years.They'll never make money based on pax loads in the past but at least they can provide the only thing they do~give the traveling public a means of transportation.This is such a dead cow that only the bones are left...

 

[Gratt]

It doesn't matter now anyways a transcontinental train was too good to be true there is a reason they almost never did it in the old days. The CONO is an option, the only other way is to run a really long day train on that route. People will spend the night in NOLA and get on the train in the morning.

Either way the states are going to need to put up a few million dollars to fix those stations and I dont see that happening anytime soon.

 

[had8ley]

It doesn't matter now anyways a transcontinental train was too good to be true there is a reason they almost never did it in the old days. The CONO is an option, the only other way is to run a really long day train on that route. People will spend the night in NOLA and get on the train in the morning.

Either way the states are going to need to put up a few million dollars to fix those stations and I dont see that happening anytime soon.

There is NOTHING wrong with the stations. Pensacola was a brand new facility and still stands as pretty as the day it was built. Gulfport and Biloxi are just waiting areas and served RR signal gangs; there never was an agent between NOL and Pensacola so I can't see how Amtrak has everyone biting into the "no station facilities" while they've dumped people in the rocks at Beaumont and had no excuses.This is in the process of being rectified.)Mobile "DID" have an agent until the land was sold and Amtrak pulled out the bull horn saying "WE ain't got no station." I've had better boloney sandwiches in my lifetime.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The O/T and deadheads and free pax meals were a nightmare with 16-24, or more, hour delays coming off the UP and if you add that into the $407 dollar figure that is being thrown around today as a per pax loss on the Sunset you can see why Amtrak ain't racing to go east of NOL. If they cut their heads in and ran the good OTP of the CONO and swung it east it would alleviate the nightmares the UP created for years.

The CONO solution sounds interesting to me. Too bad the American government is busy starving virtually every budget outside of defense and senior citizen services. On the flip side, I didn't see many intentional delays on the part of UP during my last trip out west on the SL. I did see lots of freights being passed though. I've also seen as many as four separate freights sitting for up to an hour each waiting for the eastbound SL to pass on its way to San Antonio while trainspotting in the area just east of Hondo. Those are eight well paid employees sitting and waiting for their authorization to move so Amtrak can pass. I'm not trying to say this is always in effect but it does happen. On my last trip VIA's Canadian was doing a lot more waiting than one of Amtrak's most notoriously delayed routes.

I can't see how Amtrak has everyone biting into the "no station facilities" while they've dumped people in the rocks at Beaumont and had no excuses. This is in the process of being rectified.

Does anyone have an update on old Beaumont's brand new million dollar bus bench?

 

[SunsetLimited01]

All I can say on this is that no one knows what's going to happen to the route east of New Orleans except for president of Amtrak and apparently Congress. The way things are going we don't even know if the western LD trains are even going to survive any longer. Right now I'd work on improving the Sunset Limited. The SL losing $400+ per passenger is unacceptable and it shows that route has to go daily. The question everyone should be asking is when Amtrak is going to order more Superliners? The TE and SL becoming one is clearly not going to happen. We can guarantee Amtrak is not going to be able to come up with 3/4 of a million dollars and just hand it over to the Union Pacific, so ordering more equipment seems like the only other option the Sunset can go daily. Once the Sunset improves then I can see the possibility of it returning east of NOL and possibly Phoenix if Amtrak is lucky. That's my thoughts on all of this.

 

[cpamtfan]

I went past the Gulfport stAtion last month. A train could stop there any day. Something needs to be done.

 

[rrdude]

rrdude

its not criminal

it is just not gonna happen

so why bring it up

Cause I was there, on the ground, n saw firsthand, what could be

 

[TLC]

After having spent the last three days on MISS/ALABMA Gulf coast, and witnessed CSX trains BLASTING thru Gulfport, Biloxi, it is virtually CRIMINAL, that Amtrak has not re-instated the SL all the way to Florida.

Economic sense? Not gonna go there.

Operational sense?. Less equipment.

Political sense? Apparently the Gulf Coast has none............

Please, this topic has been "discussed to death" and has been beaten to death. If it happens, it happens. But no need to post............

Then why this post other than to just vent.

Because thats what he does.

 

[henryj]

This subject continues to come up on here. For starters one needs to read the Performance Improvement Plan published by Amtrak in 2010.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222

After you read it you will begin to realize that most of the improvements could be made to the existing train without daily service. There is plenty of equipment to do either as Amtrak has four sets dedicate to the route plus the through cars from the Eagle. This is because the train lays over in New Orleans for three days before returning westbound(Actually there are days when two sets of SSL equipment sit in New Orleans overnight). This is because the schedule is still running as if the train goes on the Florida which of course it does not. In addition Amtrak is unable to turn the train in one day in LA because the eastbound schedule leaves at 2:40PM rather that late a night as it used to before Katrina and the UP meltdown. So there is huge waste going on before we even start on the PIP.

From the PIP, the schedule changes which give better arrival and departure times in key markets, the layover improvements in San Antonio, better connected corridor services, On=board amenities improvements, etc, blah blah blah, could all be done to the existing train without daily service or having to pay UP 3/4 of a billion dollars. Service could also be restored to Florida. My understanding of the east end was that it generated a lot of traffic and actually returned more revenue per mile than the existing current route. There were a lot of people that elected to take the train to Orlando from the Texas and other Western markets. The UP and BNSF are generally running this train on time now and it has a better on time performance than any of the other western LD routes.

So in the end you have to wonder just what is the plan at Amtrak? Personally, I don't think they give a hoot about the western LD trains and particularly the Sunset. It's not going to make any money because none of the LD trains make any money. So that's not the problem. The problem is that Amtrak has just written off the LD market period and is just marking time until they can rid themselves of it. Their concentration now is corridor markets, and mostly state supported ones. And after next year Amtrak as we know it may be history anyway. These people obviously don't consider that their rail service is essential since the continually suspend service on a route for whatever reason and provide no alternate service. So they have bought into the arguments that the service isn't really needed. They only run these trains because that is the only way they can keep their jobs.

 

[eagle628]

It's really not a shame at all. The last thing Amtrak needs to do is sink more money into the Western long-distance sinkhole. It sucks for Florida (actually, not a whole lot, since thrice weekly service in the middle of the night doesn't do anybody much good at all), but there are a lot of other places where more people can be served better for the same amount of money. Given Amtrak's financial and political status, throwing money at expanding long-distance trains, at least for the time being, is tantamount to suicide. It just gives more ammunition to the people who say Amtrak is an outdated, irrelevent form of transport, and it deprives the areas where Amtrak could manage to be neither of those badly needed money.

 

[DET63]

This "Thread" is like a dead hose, but still...

A dead hose . . .

Interesting.

 

[jis]

The following comes to mind

 

[TWA904]

It is my understanding that the SL could be restored to Orlando or Tampa with no additional

equipment. They only need to have crews trained.

Eagle628 said that since it SL was scheduled thru towns in ALA and Florida during the night it

did no good. Most of those towns have no other transportation options other than Amtrak and they did have good boardings.

Also, I believe based on what I've read about Amtrak, that one reason the LD trains are losing

so much money is because of the accounting methods. Charging expenses to the LD trains that

should be charged to the NEC is simply not right.

 

[zephyr17]

It's really not a shame at all. The last thing Amtrak needs to do is sink more money into the Western long-distance sinkhole. It sucks for Florida (actually, not a whole lot, since thrice weekly service in the middle of the night doesn't do anybody much good at all), but there are a lot of other places where more people can be served better for the same amount of money. Given Amtrak's financial and political status, throwing money at expanding long-distance trains, at least for the time being, is tantamount to suicide. It just gives more ammunition to the people who say Amtrak is an outdated, irrelevent form of transport, and it deprives the areas where Amtrak could manage to be neither of those badly needed money.

We need to get much of the NEC service shifted to state 403B funding, so they fund their corridor service like the rest of the country has to. Then we'll see.

 

[henryj]

It is my understanding that the SL could be restored to Orlando or Tampa with no additional

equipment. They only need to have crews trained.

That is correct. Train #2 arrives on TuFrSu. Those same sets leave as #1 on FrMoWe. That means that on Tuesday and Sunday mights there are actually two sets of equipment sitting in New Orleans. This has been verified by Amtrak personnel in New Orleans. And this train looses something like $400 per passenger. I wonder why? The train sets are sitting there because the schedule is set up to continue on to Orlando, but of course they do not so they just sit in New Orleans as if they went on to Florida as do the crews which of course get paid anyway. And this has been the case ever since Katrina in 2005.............almost six years. Is Amtrak management stupid or do they just not give a hoot? Wonder why this train is always the first target of the cost cutters and budget crunchers? Down here we witness this stupid operation going on year after year with no change or resolution in site.

 

[had8ley]

Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !

 

[henryj]

Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !

I don't see any problem with overtime, deadheading, ADA or any other such problems. The trains run on time now and the route east of NOL is a separate division with separate crews, the CSX made the route available years ago and the stations are the same ones that were there in 2005. When the train ran on to Florida it laid over about three hours in NOL for servicing and restocking and new crews. It would actually be a more efficient operation and the equipment would be earning revenue rather than just sitting and the west end crews would be turned quicker and get back to LAX sooner. Amtrak decided to start the transcon service as a way to use the idle equipment that was sitting in NOL prior to 1993 and it worked well until the UP meltdown and subsequently Katrina.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Although it sounds good at first there is nothing terribly efficient about generating revenue that's insufficient to cover your costs. If the people who live along the Sunset Limited East want service restored they should work hard to get pro-rail politicians elected in the states that would be funding its return. Or just kiss it goodbye. All this crying about Amtrak's lack of interest in losing more money on a route that was notorious for it won't change anything.

 

[TWA904]

Why worry about subsidizing at a rate of $400 per passenger. The DOT is paying over $4,000

per passenger for Essential Air Service(EAS) at Ely, NV. Ely had 229 enplanements for the year

in 2010 and Great Lakes Airlines received over $1 mil in EAS payments. Alamagordo NM has a EAS rate of over $1000 per enplanement.

 

[henryj]

Although it sounds good at first there is nothing terribly efficient about generating revenue that's insufficient to cover your costs. If the people who live along the Sunset Limited East want service restored they should work hard to get pro-rail politicians elected in the states that would be funding its return. Or just kiss it goodbye. All this crying about Amtrak's lack of interest in losing more money on a route that was notorious for it won't change anything.

The states and Amtrak paid a lot of money to get this route started so they probably don't feel it necessary to pay again just to restore what was already there. All Amtrak's LD trains lose lots of money so I don't see that as an issue. Personally, I am not crying about it. I just think Amtrak ignores the south and the southwest and gives us poor to non-existant service compared to other parts of the country. Particularly since Texas is the second largest state population wise and pays a bunch of taxes to the Feds. It all goes to support the NEC and the northeast. If you are so worried about Amtrak losing more money just privatize it and get ride of all the money losing routes. I like taking the train, but hey I can live without it. There is always Southwest Airlines and it makes money.

 

[Amtrak George]

RE: traffic levels on CSX etc.: I know there is still a lot of freight traffic on the Flomaton to New Orleans segment (Flomaton is a junction east of Mobile) but what about the segment on the panhandle east of Flomaton? This may be a part of the problem, as I heard a while back that CSX was sending NOLA to Florida traffic around through Montgomery or some other way and bypassing the panhandle route. There has been talk of downgrading the Panhandle line. The portion thru Biloxi etc. is not in danger and is part of the Cincinnati to New Orleans main.

I would also think right now as Amtrak's very existence is again threatened by political upheaval, they can hardly afford resuming the route. I would love to see it happen (I want to travel to Florida by train) but it looks like unless funding gets approved it won't happen.

If restoration becomes possible, it should be a stand alone train, not part of a transcon. It could be an extension of the CONO. The problem with the City of New Orleans extension is unless you allow for several hours between a westbound train from Florida and the northbound City, you could really do havoc with the City's timekeeping. This would not be good.