CZ Omaha police

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Another thing that we haven't addressed is, Amtrak states "uniformed police and k-9 units may board the train." In both the cases given here for the Omaha station, they were NOT uniformed. The most recent case Mr. Chandler says, "guys in plainsclothes with their badge on a chain around their neck." That doesn't sound like uniformed officers to me.
 
Whats the issue here? No issue at all. Your rights are clearly spelled out in our Constitution. Amtrak would have a lengthy court case on there hands it I was thrown off the train If I refused a search without reasonable cause or a warrent!
Actually if the local police haul you off the train, your case would be with them; not Amtrak. Amtrak can't stop the police from taking you off the train because you decided not to comply with the officer.
Although that is certainly true, my understanding is that if you are traveling domestically on a common carrier and are held up by security that does not result in actual charges it is generally expected that your carrier will make every reasonable attempt to reschedule you at their convenience for no additional cost. That is to say, if you are trying to board a plane and are held up by security or if you are kicked off a plane but are not charged with any crime you can reasonably expect to be reaccommodated on a later flight, although it might be the following day if it's late enough. In the case of international travel the airline is obligated to return refused passengers on the next available flight at the airline's own cost, even in the case of one-way tickets. Is it true that Amtrak policy is to leave passengers who were not removed by the request of any staff and are not charged with any crime to their own devices with little or no attempt to reaccommodate them? It would be bad enough to have to find a place to stay until Amtrak had another coach or sleeper available, but I would have expected Amtrak to provided a "no harm, no foul" reaccommodation policy similar to that of the airlines.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Another thing that we haven't addressed is, Amtrak states "uniformed police and k-9 units may board the train." In both the cases given here for the Omaha station, they were NOT uniformed. The most recent case Mr. Chandler says, "guys in plainsclothes with their badge on a chain around their neck." That doesn't sound like uniformed officers to me.
At least as far a Californa law goes, wearing a badge around you neck is most likely enough of a "uniform" to qualify. The is no formal definition of a uniform and the badge is certainly an integral part of a law enforcement uniform.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don't forget that at an airport, you can't refuse a search without being questioned by a cop. Refusing to talk to a cop could mean arrest. Even if you choose to forfeit your ticket.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don't forget that at an airport, you can't refuse a search without being questioned by a cop. Refusing to talk to a cop could mean arrest. Even if you choose to forfeit your ticket.
I think you're referring to after you've entered the TSA checkpoint. You can absolutely enter an airport's common areas without submitting to any searches. Even when you're in the TSA checkpoint you can still refuse certain types of searching. I have refused the x-ray machines dozens of times without any police questioning. You may have to put up with the stupid groping nonsense as a result and if you also refuse that then the TSA will attempt to prevent you from leaving until they can hand you over to the police. However, the legal ground they have for holding you is not yet solidified and if you haven't broken any laws the presumption of innocence (and the presumption of free movement) should remain in effect even if the police are called. They can ask for your name and address, but that's all you have to give them, and remaining silent is in no way any sort of cause for arrest. Unfortunately neither of the two establishment parties seems willing or able to take on the ever more bloated and ridiculous TSA, so we're still stuck with two anti-privacy options when voting for our country's future.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've thought about this a long time. I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd probably resist complying with this checkpoint charlie nonsense, but what sort of "refund" would you get on an AGR award and how would you reach your destination or get back home in a reasonable time frame and at a reasonable cost? The increasing difficulty of exercising our rights through non-compliance and our lack of practical solutions that won't abruptly end our trip is probably not an accident. In the end I'm not sure that we actually have all the rights we've been reading about since elementary school. Apparently many of the rights we take for granted only exist in theory and not in reality, at least in a practical sense.

Nevertheless a citizen who never dares to step out of line may cease to even notice the chains that bind him. Making a point of expressing how this invasion of privacy is not acceptable to you and goes against what you believe America stands for is absolutely your right. If everyone made a point of resisting maybe this sort of thing would become less and less common. On the other hand, as already mentioned, there remains an strong but artificial incentive to keep violating our privacy so long as it results in substantial monetary or political gains for those who influence or conduct the invasions. There is nothing inherently illegal with carrying currency, but if you're caught with no more cash than would be necessary to buy a sleeper compartment or a last minute flight home you could end up losing all of your money until such time as you can prove in court that it came from a legitimate source. And that might not be as quick and easy as you would think it is.

In the end I have to say that these sorts of invasions to our privacy will remain common until such time as we either prevent our various security forces from benefiting from confiscated possessions and/or we vastly restrict what can be confiscated in the first place. In other words I think we need to seriously reform our current confiscation laws and consider legalizing the creation and distribution of more controlled substances to reduce their appeal to drug cartels and police forces alike. In an ideal world we would not suffer at the hands of the police and the drug cartels simply by trying to restrict drug creation and use, but since we do not live in an ideal world I'm convinced that we could probably do much better by finally trying some new solutions to a cultural problem that has been routinely failing us since the early 1900's. Until we change this cycle of failure we'll continue to be at the mercy of degrading treatment by police and vicious life-threatening treatment by drug cartels, both of which have found a way to benefit monetarily from the illicit drug trade and have little interest in seeing it legalized and regulated.
TS,

You nailed it !!!! I do disagree with your position on drugs though.

"The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."

Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER answer a police officer's questions if they HAVE NOT articulated that you are being questioned because you are suspected of committing a crime, THEN you are to tell them that since they have RAS'd you, the conversation is over and you will not be saying anything without an attorney present.

The difference between you and 99% of police officers is you probably know more about the law than they do. We constantly school Nevada police officers here about gun laws as they have very poor comprehension skills.

My family (uncle, brother, cousins) are present or former LEOs and they have told me to SHUT UP and DO NOT answer any questions. They are not going to take you off the train to get a search warrant unless they are a double digit IQ LEO which is a possibility though. They know who they are looking for, they are just hoping that they can make an extra bust by you saying something stupid. Everything you say WILL be held against you. Innocent people become guilty people every day because they agree to speak to a LEO.

You response is "I DO NOT CONSENT TO THIS CONVERSATION, AM I FREE TO GO ?"

Stand up for your rights or be a sheeple.

NAVYBLUE
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Another thing that we haven't addressed is, Amtrak states "uniformed police and k-9 units may board the train." In both the cases given here for the Omaha station, they were NOT uniformed. The most recent case Mr. Chandler says, "guys in plainsclothes with their badge on a chain around their neck." That doesn't sound like uniformed officers to me.
At least as far a Californa law goes, wearing a badge around you neck is most likely enough of a "uniform" to qualify. The is no formal definition of a uniform and the badge is certainly an integral part of a law enforcement uniform.
I would have to agree. Most, not all detectives are in suits and their badge around their neck. these are their uniforms and just because they are plain clothed officers does not mean they are not in uniform.
 
I am not sure what the basic rights are. Does a roomette have the same status as your home, which may not be searched without a warrant?
NO
Are you sure about that? It is a rented space, not a public area. The rear of a limo is not subject to search under that premise, so why would a private accommodation on AMTRAK not also be off limits. (You have any cases to refer to?)

Also ... I am not so sure about a local police jurisdiction to remove you from a train for declining a consent search. What exactly would be that based on. And once off, they release the train - along with the area to be search? Really?
 
I am not sure what the basic rights are. Does a roomette have the same status as your home, which may not be searched without a warrant?
NO
Are you sure about that? It is a rented space, not a public area. The rear of a limo is not subject to search under that premise, so why would a private accommodation on AMTRAK not also be off limits. (You have any cases to refer to?)

Also ... I am not so sure about a local police jurisdiction to remove you from a train for declining a consent search. What exactly would be that based on. And once off, they release the train - along with the area to be search? Really?
No, I am not sure and I apologize if I am wrong. I based my decision on the quoted security language in one of the previous posts,

Quote

 

Amtrak has in place a range of behind-the-scenes and front-line security measures aimed at improving passenger rail security, some of which are conducted on an unpredictable or random basis. These include uniformed police officers and K-9 units in stations andon trains, Mobile Security Teams, checked baggage screening, on-board screening, security cameras and investments in state-of-the-art security technology. Passengers may also be randomly selected to show identification aboard trains, even after they've shown identification earlier when obtaining their tickets.

 

 

Please be advised that randomly selected passengers and their baggage, handbags, backpacks, or other personal items may be screened or inspected. The inspection will be completed as quickly as possible -- usually less than a minute -- in a manner designed to respect passengers' privacy as much as possible. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered.

and it is my understanding that an individual's rights are different in his or her own home than on a common carrier. I am not certain of my answer and I do not have any case law to back up my answer, but my opinion remains the same.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If these people come to my room and want to ask questions or search my baggage I am not going to argue with them and you would be advised to do the same. If you don't care if they kick you off the train in the middle of nowhere are you have access to a lawyer then have at it. Personally, I just want to finish my trip.
 
Im not a Lawyer but wonder if "Renting" a Room on a Train is the same as "Renting" a Room in a Hotel or Motel? IINM, Police must have "Probable Cause" to search Private Property and obtain a Warrant spelling out exactly what they are searching for?

I'm not about to argue with someone with a Gun and Badge in the Middle of the Night and in the Middle of Nowhere, but we Must know our rights! Just be polite and ask them their Name, to be shown some ID and ask what they are looking for if they want to search your room! I know that Dogs sniff Luggage, Stations and Passengers all the time, X-ray Machines are used etc. and that Luggage may be searched in the Racks and Baggage Cars IF dogs Alert on something or LE has a Warrant! but your Private Room is just that, it's not Public! Used to be they could only search your Personal Property with your Consent or a Warrant, but lately this seems to be Violated almost daily with such things as "No Refusual and No Knock Laws which sound like something out of Germany or the Soviet Union in the Bad Old days!

Im not opposed to LE trying to do a very tough job, but "Fishing Expiditions" are a Violation of Our Rights and Government (LE is Government) Will Go as Far As They Can IF the People don't oppose Illegal and Unethical Acts!

No matter what they say, LE Agencies have used Profiling for years (ever heard of DWB, Driving While Black?)and its been my experience that People of Color, the Young, People in Second Class (ie Coach) tend to be treated differently than "First Class" People, no matter what the setting! KNOW YOUR RIGHTS, just say NO to Violations by any Government Agency! ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Texas Sunset - eloquently said! The "war on drugs" has been an abysmyl failure. What has been a success is the compliance through bullying and indimidation tactics. This is exacly why I won't fly anymore. l'm deeply saddened to see this now on the rail.
 
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS, just say NO to Violations by any Government Agency! ;)
Thanks! That's exactly why I posted here -- I want to know my rights. I'm not one that would typcially be profiled, white, middle aged, housewife, traveling only with enough cash to pay tips onboard so no one's gonna get rich off me... But still, I want to know what rights I have. I can't imagine having the above happen to me, and if it did unfortunately I'd probably have to consent as long as I can watch. I just don't want to be removed from the train, alone in a strange place, in the middle of the night, unable to find a hotel at an ungodly hour... If I can find a traveling companion though, that might change things. :)
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out". Likewise, Amtrak - a pseudo-government agency acting like a private business - provides, at a cost, access to their equipment to passengers. As part of the condition of accessing Amtrak property (regardless of payment or reward type), you do so per their rules. You can't smoke. You can't hang out in the lounge naked. You can't drink in Coach. You can't open the door window in the vestibule. You can't fight. You can't get drunk and argue with the Conductor. You can't talk 14 hours straight through the night on a cell phone.

You can't carry drugs.

For the most part, a boarding party will produce probably cause to search one's private stuff. They'll bring a sniffer dog, or they'll have a credible tip. But that just helps them. According to your terms of carriage, they can search you, your room, your stuff. Period. You aren't in your home. You're not in your car (which is still ambiguous). You're not in the middle of 100 acres of your private land. You're on private property - not yours - who has granted you access under the condition you agree to their terms.
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out".
The Constitution only protects you from governmental interference and your Constitutional protections while living in a rental house are exactly the same as if you owned the dwelling.
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out".
The Constitution only protects you from governmental interference and your Constitutional protections while living in a rental house are exactly the same as if you owned the dwelling.
No, they are not. For example, in California, with 24 hour notice, the renter must grant access to the landlord and/or his agents, no cause required..
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out".
The Constitution only protects you from governmental interference and your Constitutional protections while living in a rental house are exactly the same as if you owned the dwelling.
No, they are not. For example, in California, with 24 hour notice, the renter must grant access to the landlord and/or his agents, no cause required..
The landlord is not a government entity and the Constitution only controls what the government may and may not do. If there are no regulations over him, he can do as he likes with his property. Most states regulate rentals however, and have many regulations such as 24 hour notice for entry in non-emergency situations, but that is not a constitutional right or restriction. He can put restrictions in the rental agreement/lease on use of the property, such as presence of illegal drugs on the premesis are ground for eviction. He can throw you out, but he can't put you in jail.

The Constitution does control what the government and its agents may do. If your landlord gives you 24 hour notice to enter, he can. The police cannot. He can't bring the police with him on his visit with 24 hour notice. If he sees a bong and a big pile of pot while he is in there, he can tell the cops and they could use the statement as probable cause and try to get a search warrent. But they have to have the search warrent (unless the pile of pot is clearly visible from outside), the landlord doesn't. But even if he doesn't call the cops, he can evict you for it.

A similar situation is free speech. You have an absolute constitutional right to write that your boss is an idiot on a picket sign and march up and down the public sidewalk in front of work. The police can't stop you as long as you aren't impeding traffic. Your boss can't stop you as long as you are not on company property. Nothing at all protects you from him firing you for it, though. That is a private matter and not controlled by the Constituion (unless you work for the government).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I just don't want to be removed from the train, alone in a strange place, in the middle of the night, unable to find a hotel at an ungodly hour.
Just say "No". The police may imply they going take you off the train, but into they place you under arrest, just say "No". Once your been arrested they ask for a lawyer. They simple act of say "No" does not make you guilty of a crime.

If I can find a traveling companion though, that might change things. :)
Helloooo Linda.....
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out".
The Constitution only protects you from governmental interference and your Constitutional protections while living in a rental house are exactly the same as if you owned the dwelling.
No, they are not. For example, in California, with 24 hour notice, the renter must grant access to the landlord and/or his agents, no cause required..
The landlord is not a government entity and the Constitution only controls what the government may and may not do. If there are no regulations over him, he can do as he likes with his property. Most states regulate rentals however, and have many regulations such as 24 hour notice for entry in non-emergency situations, but that is not a constitutional right or restriction. He can put restrictions in the rental agreement/lease on use of the property, such as presence of illegal drugs on the premesis are ground for eviction. He can throw you out, but he can't put you in jail.

The Constitution does control what the government and its agents may do. If your landlord gives you 24 hour notice to enter, he can. The police cannot. He can't bring the police with him on his visit with 24 hour notice. If he sees a bong and a big pile of pot while he is in there, he can tell the cops and they could use the statement as probable cause and try to get a search warrent. But they have to have the search warrent (unless the pile of pot is clearly visible from outside), the landlord doesn't. But even if he doesn't call the cops, he can evict you for it.

A similar situation is free speech. You have an absolute constitutional right to write that your boss is an idiot on a picket sign and march up and down the public sidewalk in front of work. The police can't stop you as long as you aren't impeding traffic. Your boss can't stop you as long as you are not on company property. Nothing at all protects you from him firing you for it, though. That is a private matter and not controlled by the Constituion (unless you work for the government).
As a California landlord myself, I would say that it is correct that a landlord can enter on 24 hours notice without permission, but the landlord does need to have a good reason for doing so. The case law suggests that landlords may have an annual inspection. However, a landlord repeatedly announcing and making visits for no particular reason can be considered harassment. Tenants have obtained restraining orders against landlords who have abused their right to enter without permission.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1940-1954.1

http://www.leginfo.c...ile=1940-1954.1
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1940-1954.1
1954. (a) A landlord may enter the dwelling unit only in the

following cases:

(1) In case of emergency.

(2) To make necessary or agreed repairs, decorations, alterations

or improvements, supply necessary or agreed services, or exhibit the

dwelling unit to prospective or actual purchasers, mortgagees,

tenants, workers, or contractors or to make an inspection pursuant to

subdivision (f) of Section 1950.5.

(3) When the tenant has abandoned or surrendered the premises.

(4) Pursuant to court order.

(b) Except in cases of emergency or when the tenant has abandoned

or surrendered the premises, entry may not be made during other than

normal business hours unless the tenant consents to an entry during

other than normal business hours at the time of entry.

© The landlord may not abuse the right of access or use it to

harass the tenant.

As for entering a train and asking to search a passenger, there is the contract of carriage.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241337896121

http://www.amtrak.co...d=1241337896121
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241337896121


Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers:
Who refuse to consent to Amtrak security inspections of persons and/or baggage onboard Amtrak trains and/or at designated areas, such as train platforms and passenger boarding or waiting areas.
Amtrak employees or other authorized carrier representatives may remove such a passenger from the train at any inhabited place, as necessary under the circumstances, for any of the above reasons.
As long as an Amtrak employee authorizes federal, state, or local law enforcement to enter, they pretty much become their representative. Legally they might need a search warrant, or not based on whether they have probable cause (can search without a warrant) or reasonable grounds (enough to get a search warrant).

Even being in sleeper accomodations isn't much different than being in a hotel room. If a maid spots a brick of heroin in someone's luggage during the normal course of work, they have every right to call the cops. If your attendant notices something unusual, they can also call for law enforcement.
 
I don't think even a rental property has the same constitutional protection as a self owned property. When I rented an apartment, my manager said they can enter my apartment at any time to investigate any claim, or monthly to perform extermination. I'm sure there is something when you sign a lease that says that. I don't think you can "opt out".
The Constitution only protects you from governmental interference and your Constitutional protections while living in a rental house are exactly the same as if you owned the dwelling.
No, they are not. For example, in California, with 24 hour notice, the renter must grant access to the landlord and/or his agents, no cause required..
The landlord is not a government entity and the Constitution only controls what the government may and may not do. If there are no regulations over him, he can do as he likes with his property. Most states regulate rentals however, and have many regulations such as 24 hour notice for entry in non-emergency situations, but that is not a constitutional right or restriction. He can put restrictions in the rental agreement/lease on use of the property, such as presence of illegal drugs on the premesis are ground for eviction. He can throw you out, but he can't put you in jail.

The Constitution does control what the government and its agents may do. If your landlord gives you 24 hour notice to enter, he can. The police cannot. He can't bring the police with him on his visit with 24 hour notice. If he sees a bong and a big pile of pot while he is in there, he can tell the cops and they could use the statement as probable cause and try to get a search warrent. But they have to have the search warrent (unless the pile of pot is clearly visible from outside), the landlord doesn't. But even if he doesn't call the cops, he can evict you for it.

A similar situation is free speech. You have an absolute constitutional right to write that your boss is an idiot on a picket sign and march up and down the public sidewalk in front of work. The police can't stop you as long as you aren't impeding traffic. Your boss can't stop you as long as you are not on company property. Nothing at all protects you from him firing you for it, though. That is a private matter and not controlled by the Constituion (unless you work for the government).
As a California landlord myself, I would say that it is correct that a landlord can enter on 24 hours notice without permission, but the landlord does need to have a good reason for doing so. The case law suggests that landlords may have an annual inspection. However, a landlord repeatedly announcing and making visits for no particular reason can be considered harassment. Tenants have obtained restraining orders against landlords who have abused their right to enter without permission.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1940-1954.1

http://www.leginfo.c...ile=1940-1954.1
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1940-1954.1
1954. (a) A landlord may enter the dwelling unit only in the

following cases:

(1) In case of emergency.

(2) To make necessary or agreed repairs, decorations, alterations

or improvements, supply necessary or agreed services, or exhibit the

dwelling unit to prospective or actual purchasers, mortgagees,

tenants, workers, or contractors or to make an inspection pursuant to

subdivision (f) of Section 1950.5.

(3) When the tenant has abandoned or surrendered the premises.

(4) Pursuant to court order.

(b) Except in cases of emergency or when the tenant has abandoned

or surrendered the premises, entry may not be made during other than

normal business hours unless the tenant consents to an entry during

other than normal business hours at the time of entry.

© The landlord may not abuse the right of access or use it to

harass the tenant.

As for entering a train and asking to search a passenger, there is the contract of carriage.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241337896121

http://www.amtrak.co...d=1241337896121
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am/Layout&cid=1241337896121


Amtrak may refuse to carry passengers:
Who refuse to consent to Amtrak security inspections of persons and/or baggage onboard Amtrak trains and/or at designated areas, such as train platforms and passenger boarding or waiting areas.
Amtrak employees or other authorized carrier representatives may remove such a passenger from the train at any inhabited place, as necessary under the circumstances, for any of the above reasons.
As long as an Amtrak employee authorizes federal, state, or local law enforcement to enter, they pretty much become their representative. Legally they might need a search warrant, or not based on whether they have probable cause (can search without a warrant) or reasonable grounds (enough to get a search warrant).

Even being in sleeper accomodations isn't much different than being in a hotel room. If a maid spots a brick of heroin in someone's luggage during the normal course of work, they have every right to call the cops. If your attendant notices something unusual, they can also call for law enforcement.
(Noticing that this discussion is getting more complicated - as the law is complicated)

If a maid "spots a brick of heroin" - how the hell would he/she know it's a brick of heroin? Or even suppose someone saw a bag of green leafy stuff? Green tea? Which I often carry on any mode of transport with no problem. White powder? -- could be flour or baking powder -- hell most things if you grind them down are white powder. Baking soda? Borax? That would just be a "tip" and usually not grounds for a warrant.

I seriously doubt that "An Amtrak employee" in general can get anyone thrown off the train for any reason - it's up to the conductor - who, I believe, can ask to consult with local law or Amtrak police (but know personally of at least one case where a conductor asked the dispatcher to "get the local cops at the next stop - it's a child abuse situation" and got no help at all - whether that was a host railroad failure or a local law dispatch failure or what - that I don't know) --

Anyhow - the Amtrak conductor is kind of like the landlord - can inspect - has responsibilities - but can't get warrant and doesn't have one.

If Amtrak police are doing a security search, as consented to by the passenger in the "contract of carriage" - the passenger may have consented to a security check - but all other rights are reserved.

Local (on the ground) cops are in a different situation. Passenger hasn't given up any rights to "LEO"'s in general by consenting to security baggage search. Cops need a warrant to search or arrest - otherwise you can just say no and go.

The problem for passengers, on Amtrak or airlines, is how the consent for security search in the contract of carriage (to make the trip safe for all) interacts with the absolute right to no "search without warrant issued on probable cause".

The courts will be hashing this out at great expense for several decades at least.

The OP - long gone - was concerned, If I remember, about warranted searches and arrests by non-Amtrak LEO. (Warranted means some accredited judge signed off on on the search and arrest - possibly in error)

So - it's already complicated - suggest to all posters research on law sites and get back in a while.

Practically - if your bags are clean - tell the buggers to bugger off - and if they are Amtrak buggers that you consented to - give them a quick sniff.

If they are not Amtrak - and if you can tell in the middle of the night - your roomette is your castle - no warrant - no entry - let me sleep in peace - you got no right.

But in either case -- which it may be hard to judge - ask for an explanation , ask for ID , ask for the Conductor, and if you need to, which I seriously doubt, ask for your lawyer.

And never talk to a cop without talking to a lawyer first.

E
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks, BC. I knew about there had to be a reason to enter a dwelling even with notice, but didn't go into that part. I mainly wanted to clarify that the landlord's admittedly limited right to enter are not limited or controlled by the 4th amendment guarantees against unreasonable search, since he's not acting as an agent of the government.

4th amendment guarantee against search is fairly cut and dried to me when it comes to a permanent dwelling (rented or owned). It seems to become fuzzier when it comes to transient situations like hotels and trains, and I don't pretend to know where the limits are. Bottom line is if they put you off the train because you wouldn't consent to search, you are off the train. You may have grounds for action later, but right then you are stuck in Omaha (or Reno).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top