Dinner with Hughes

[Rafi]

I lead a double life, and I try to keep them separate as best I can. On the one hand, I work as an editor for a major newspaper chain. On the other, I'm an avid railfan. Well, as fate had it, I needed a date to the White House Correspondents' Dinner this year, and figured I might as well just invite a press contact for once. I figured, "What the heck. I'll invite David Hughes." Anyway, to make a long, long story short, David accepted and this past Saturday was a blast. I can tell you that he's an articulate, intelligent man, with a great deal of experience not just in our country, but all over the world. To say that I don't envy his job is an understatement, and I'm glad to know he's there.

Anyway, I figured the least I could do would be to follow up with you folks on some of my thoughts and things I learned.

It became clear to me that under Hughes, Amtrak has come to terms with its past, and is focusing on the future. They recently achieved a 90% OTP on the NEC, which is a record (apparently, after all of the repairs and rebuilding were complete, they went mile by mile and re-evaluated speed restrictions. The net result was an 8 minute savings from WAS-NYP, if i recall correctly.).

Especially heartening to a railfan such as myself was learning that Amtrak will be reaching out to us, individually, more and more online. We should see some announcements in the near future with regard to that.

Long Distance service continues to be a priority, and from what I can tell, last year's "scare" had more bark than bite. It certainly scared me more than it scared those inside of Amtrak, apparently. Thankfully, LD is not going anywhere any time soon.

Hughes was also intimately interested in asking my coworkers about impressions of food on the long distance trains. On more than one occasion he made it a point to ask a few followup questions. He's convinced that the food can be good to excellent, even with the reforms, and I was glad to see his wanting to conduct a little on-the-spot research.

Anyway, I just wanted to touch base and let everyone know that your views and concerns were voiced loud and clear with David, and he heard them; I figured I was the next best thing to our ambassador, so I came prepared. The next 90 days are going to be very interesting, and I'm looking forward to them.

Incidentally, I did write a small piece on Amtrak's 35th anniversary if anyone is interested:

Click Here

Take care,

Rafi

 

[battalion51]

Thankfully, LD is not going anywhere any time soon.

Well duh, any one of us could have told you that. :lol:

 

[Steve4031]

Rafi,

Thanks for your information. Hopefully, they will start to work towards overrhauling the long distance fleet in the east, which needs attention, as well as many otherthings.

 

[railrookie]

Rafi,

Excellent article! Way to go!

Al

 

[Sam Damon]

Nice work, Rafi.

BTW, did you pose any of the questions in the sticky topic at the top of this forum? Or was your conversation more low-key in nature? I figure you've pretty much summed things up; I'm just trying to get a feel for Amtrak's future under him.

 

[Rafi]

Nice work, Rafi.
BTW, did you pose any of the questions in the sticky topic at the top of this forum? Or was your conversation more low-key in nature? I figure you've pretty much summed things up; I'm just trying to get a feel for Amtrak's future under him.

Sam,

I knew someone would probably ask that...

I'd better fess up and just admit that I was the one behind that sticky topic. Alan was gracious enough to help me remain anonymous, for a number of personal and professional reasons.

I did, indeed, ask Hughes each and every question on that topic (and a ton more), and unfortunately, the entire night was off-the-record, and much of what he said I can't repeat verbatim. Talk about frustrating. I can tell you this:

With regard to LD service: as long as a route is not atrociously bad in terms of OTP or train cleanliness, I don't think it will be under any serious pressure to be discontinued. That said, it's clear to me that Food and Beverage MUST break even if certain other amenities are going to stick around. That much I think everyone knows, and NARP has stated the same.

Routes that can't cut the mustard are going to be under scrutiny and NARP has gone as far to say that we will probably see some routes get cut as things are re-evaluated. That said, I'd be lying if I said that people weren't following up with what David Laney said when he stated that Amtrak would be investigating new LD routes, which would compensate for underperforming ones. I've probably said too much already, so I'll stop there.

Hughes strikes me as the type who is not one to rock the boat without due cause, so to speak, but he's a realist. Frankly, he's able to face the music better than I can on a number of issues, and it seems to me that he has a good handle on what's possible and what's a pipe dream. He's making a concerted effort to look to the future and not at the mess of a past, and he's adamant about that. He has a tough job ahead of him, but it sounds like he's up to it. As long as he can stay put, I think we're looking at a fairly stable operation that won't be without some minor drama, but good drama.

Phew... was that vague, yet suggestive enough? <grin>

-Rafi

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

I wouldn't go around saying Long distance trains are safe.

Amtrak can't start any new routes under the law that is in affect if Amtrak does start a new route Amtrak will have to cut a route to begin a new one.

Which would mean trains will be cut to add new ones.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Let's remember that the Study does not end until June 30th 2006 and all trains and all stations are on the list.

"There's nothing, as far as I'm concerned, that's off the table," David Laney told reporters following an abbreviated Senate hearing on Amtrak's funding request for the 2007 budget year

 

[amtrak_flyer]

The long distance trains are in more danger now then ever in Amtraks 35 years. Even if Amtrak the Amtrak board doesnt axe the routes congress just might. Has anyone noticed since Gunn is gone the Amtrak backers in the Senate arent as vocal. So far for next years Amtrak budget the Senate has only as approved 900 million, exactly what Bush proposed. Last week, farm subsidies and other programs were increased but not a word mentioned of Amtrak. A letter I received from Boxer of CA, stated she supported an admendment to raise Amtrak funding, but it was defeated. Thats how the letter ended. It didnt leave me with the impression she was going to try to fund Amtrak another way.

The House this year might not even be as generous as 900 million, who knows, but one things for sure the LD routes are not safe at all. Keep the letters and calls coming.

As far as Hughes, something I would have liked to asked him. What was Hughes relationship with Gunn while he was at Amtrak? Did he feel bad taking Gunns job the way he did, knowing Gunn was getting fired before Gunn did? Has Hughes talked to Gunn since Gunns firing?

 

[Trogdor]

I did, indeed, ask Hughes each and every question on that topic (and a ton more)

So, what was his paint scheme preference? (j/k)

Routes that can't cut the mustard are going to be under scrutiny and NARP has gone as far to say that we will probably see some routes get cut as things are re-evaluated.

I figure NARP ought to be going public in the relatively near future with various statements and proposals regarding the future of Amtrak service.

 

[amtrak_flyer]

Talking about NARP, one thing that scares me as of recently. Ive emailed them and havent been too impressed with their responses, but have you seen their website recently. Theres a trip report from the executive director about a recent ride his girlfriend and him just went on. Thats stuff for these forums not the NARP website. It leads me to believe its not the NARP of the past. Agree/disagree?

 

[boratwanksta]

Amtrak can't start any new routes under the law that is in affect if Amtrak does start a new route Amtrak will have to cut a route to begin a new one.
Which would mean trains will be cut to add new ones.

interesting, do you know if this law doesn't apply if say, Amtrak adds trains to a particular route or extends a route? particularly, i was wondering if this law doesn't apply, if the states of Oklahoma and Kansas were to work out a funding deal with Amtrak to extend the Heartland Flyer to Kansas City or to Newton, and/or have a branch to Tulsa.

hopefully, now that i mentioned that above example(and a proposal that's rementioned every now and then), maybe i'll have a better idea of what this law applies to. btw Rafi, i'm glad to hear that you interviewed David Hughes, and at least share to us what you could.

 

[Trogdor]

As I recall, the "no expansion" was actually a condition of the $100 million loan the DOT gave to Amtrak in the summer of 2002.

I don't recall the exact wording, but essentially it stated that Amtrak could not spend its own money planning or operating any "new service" that would result in an increase in Amtrak's operating loss. Therefore, if someone else wanted to spend the money (i.e. the state of Oklahoma), they would be more than welcome to do so.

 

[Rafi]

As far as Hughes, something I would have liked to asked him. What was Hughes relationship with Gunn while he was at Amtrak? Did he feel bad taking Gunns job the way he did, knowing Gunn was getting fired before Gunn did? Has Hughes talked to Gunn since Gunns firing?

I did talk to him briefly about his relationship with Gunn. Gunn was the man who brought Hughes into Amtrak in the first place to oversee the NEC; they had known each other for some decades prior to either joining Amtrak and remain friends today. It was my impression that Hughes and Gunn both learned of the firing essentially at the same time, with Hughes finding out only a few hours beforehand. As for whether or not he felt bad for taking Gunn's job, I have no idea; I didn't ask that. I do know that Gunn fully supported Hughes as a successor.

-Rafi

 

[Rafi]

Talking about NARP, one thing that scares me as of recently. Ive emailed them and havent been too impressed with their responses, but have you seen their website recently. Theres a trip report from the executive director about a recent ride his girlfriend and him just went on. Thats stuff for these forums not the NARP website. It leads me to believe its not the NARP of the past. Agree/disagree?

I think you're referring to David Johnson, the associate director of NARP. He's since moved those sorts of musings to NARP's blog. As for it being the NARP of old, I'd say it still is, as Capon has been involved since Amtrak's inception and is very good friends with Hughes.

-Rafi

 

[Sam Damon]

I did, indeed, ask Hughes each and every question on that topic (and a ton more)...

Okey-fine.

...unfortunately, the entire night was off-the-record, and much of what he said I can't repeat verbatim. Talk about frustrating.

I feel your pain.

With regard to LD service: as long as a route is not atrociously bad in terms of OTP or train cleanliness, I don't think it will be under any serious pressure to be discontinued. That said, it's clear to me that Food and Beverage MUST break even if certain other amenities are going to stick around. That much I think everyone knows, and NARP has stated the same.
Routes that can't cut the mustard are going to be under scrutiny and NARP has gone as far to say that we will probably see some routes get cut as things are re-evaluated. That said, I'd be lying if I said that people weren't following up with what David Laney said when he stated that Amtrak would be investigating new LD routes, which would compensate for underperforming ones. I've probably said too much already, so I'll stop there.

Reading between the lines here: stick a fork in the Sunset east of NOL, it's done. I would not fall over dead if I learned the Texas Eagle and the Lake Shore Limited were on the hit list, given their dreary OTP. The Cardinal is safe for now, but when Senator Byrd passes on, who knows? That train at least must run according to statute. And what of the other LD services in the east? NS and CSX seem to be less than thrilled to move Amtrak trains over the road OT, if you follow them. CSX's lines for the Silver Service are in less than stellar shape, and could stand some serious rehabilitation work, from what others seem to say. Based on what you're suggesting, I'm concluding all LD trains east of the Mississippi (with the exception of the Pennsylvanian) appear in trouble.

Here's the $6.4 billion question: to what extent will Hughes push for public-private partnerships with the freight railroads, like the one NS entered into for the Meridian Speedway with KCS? Put another way, will Hughes push for capacity improvements on the freight railroads in exchange for guaranteed OTP? Would he zap the Class Is with a public-private partnership to rehab to passenger specifications lines such as the FW&E in exchange for (some, not a lot of) trackage rights for on the newly rehabbed lines? The shortline holding would contribute the RoW, obtain the benefits of rehabbed track and signaling, but would have contribute some trackage rights to the competitors in an effort to keep the competition neutral between railroads, yet give the nation the benefits of improved railroad service.

From a public policy perspective, I would have less of a problem sending tax dollars to the private sector in exchange for a quantifiable public benefit, such as my intercity passenger trains running at, say, 95% OTP. The obstacles here are the airline, barge, and trucking lobbies, which will scream bloody murder. Never mind the laws of physics are on the side of the railroads.

<must tell self to get more sleep after late nights>

 

[Rafi]

The Cardinal is safe for now, but when Senator Byrd passes on, who knows?  That train at least must run according to statute.

Agreed. While we were talking about possible new routes, I stressed to him the value that a NYP-WAS-STL train would provide folks traveling to the midwest, without requiring a stopover in Chicago. New Missouri service that's been announced would make a great connection to Kansas City as well. I proposed a split of the Cardinal at Cincinnati, with one section running to STL and the other running to CHI, much like the Empire Builder. We didn't go into equipment constraints, right of way condition, etc. It was merely a "this would be good" brainstorm. But he was interested in the idea and said that is the sort of thing Amtrak is going to be looking for, hopefully with state support. My thought is that that would hopefully bring some sort of daily service back to the Cardinal's West Virginia segment at least, with the STL train running daily and the Chicago train at least running tri-weekly, as is the case now. Again, I have to stress that this was my statement to him, which is why I'm even mentioning it. Had he told me that *HE* was thinking about this, then you wouldn't be seeing this post.

Based on what you're suggesting, I'm concluding all LD trains east of the Mississippi (with the exception of the Pennsylvanian) appear in trouble.

Well, based on our conversation, I wouldn't go that far. Amtrak will serve markets that it thinks will be popular, and we all know that Florida is a very popular market. We didn't talk about what the likelihood was of losing the Silvers, or the Lake Shore, and frankly, I think we'll see corridor improvements on those lines before they get cancelled. That's my gut instinct; he didn't say anything to me directly about that.

Put another way, will Hughes push for capacity improvements on the freight railroads in exchange for guaranteed OTP?

Hughes plans to work to get the freight railroads to fix OTP problems. OTP is the number one concern of Amtrak passengers, and every time I mentioned my ten hour late Coast Starlight trip, he visibly winced. I'll just say this: he's going to push the freights hard in ways that I think are ingenious. You'll know it when it happens, believe me.

I'd better shut up now.

-Rafi

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Let's remember 1 thing you take just 1 train off you will cripple a lot of people who can only travel by train or Amtrak is the only way in or out of that town/city.

If people want to add routes then we need to push the Government to add routes but not at the cost of cutting routes to gain a route.

Think of the passengers that use Amtrak ether because of medical condition that won't let them fly or take a bus or what i mentioned above about Amtrak being the only service thru that area.

 

[x-press]

With regard to LD service: as long as a route is not atrociously bad in terms of OTP or train cleanliness, I don't think it will be under any serious pressure to be discontinued.

Based on what you're suggesting, I'm concluding all LD trains east of the Mississippi (with the exception of the Pennsylvanian) appear in trouble.

First off, I'm not sure what "train cleanliness" has to do with a route discontinuance. If the train's dirty, clean the train. Now, that said, I wouldn't jump off a bridge if the nation's network was re-evaluated and shuffled a bit. I'd prefer to keep the national network like it is, but with freight interference and equipment shortages, I can see what the other side is saying.

As far as "all LD train east of the Mississippi" being in trouble, I don't see where that came from, based on the interview. I dare say that the interview's synopsis would have had a lot more ominous tone if that had been the case!

I guess it depends on one's definition of "atrociously bad" otp.

- Trains like the Empire Builder and Southwest Chief are actually quite good with otp, by almost any standard.

- Texas Eagle, Silver Services, and Crescent seem to be hit or miss. Six hours late one day, virtually ontime or early the next.

- Capitol Limited is virtually always late, but hardly ever "catastrophically" late. It's the same ~two hour delay each day, with an occasional ontime arrival or accident-caused 8-hour delay to pepper things up a bit.

- Lake Shore, Coast Starlight, and the Sunset before the schedule changes are the really bad ones; constantly late, often catastrophically. Frankly, the 40-hour late Sunsets never should have been run at all. I agree that service is important along that route, but delays like that are making things worse, not better.

It's a shame that the routes with the biggest operational challenges (see above) happen to be some of the most sensible long distance routes.

IF we were to re-shuffle the long-distance network, cutting certain trains and adding others, the best investment Amtrak could make would be to put EXTRA TRAINS on EXISTING ROUTES with high demand. The costs would be far less than a totally new route, since no new stations would be required. More passengers, same station costs means LESS SUBSIDY PER PASSENGER, which the stat the anti-Amtrak zealots are always shrieking about.

- Lake Shore is well-patronized and could surely use a second train along its route, perhaps serving Cleveland at more reasonable hours.

- Silver Service could use another train, as it had with the Palm, especially a seasonal one for snowbirds.

- Atlanta ought to have more service than it does. Another NY-Atl train would have promise, especially with Charlotte along the line (hint: check the airline prices to Charlotte; there's an opportunity there). Other combinations, perhaps along the Carolinian/Piedmont's infrastructure (slowly being upgraded) would be worth exploring, too.

Here's the problem: All the routes I've mentioned run with single level equipment, which Amtrak doesn't have enough of as is. To get equipment on these high-demand routes, you'd have to cut them from another high-demand route.

JPS

 

[Guest]

Speaking of the NC routes, I think you will see NCDOT add another train set to the Piedmont route some time soon. Ridership has been good and it would give them some flexability with schedules and pickup some business travel into and out of Charlotte.

All other discussions are just that - discussions. Any new routes that will be considered will all be driven by state/city participation in funding and cost-sharing.

As you look at the map, the major missing piece is a north-south train through Atlanta to Florida - or connecting to Florida in Savannah.

 

[Rafi]

Speaking of the Sunset, this is rather timely:

NARP Urges Amtrak to Revive Sunset Limited Service to Florida

In speaking with NARP for the interview, they conceded that even they don't think it's likely for Amtrak to resume the service. The board of directors felt it necessary to issue the statement, however.

-Rafi

 

[boratwanksta]

Speaking of the NC routes, I think you will see NCDOT add another train set to the Piedmont route some time soon. Ridership has been good and it would give them some flexability with schedules and pickup some business travel into and out of Charlotte.
All other discussions are just that - discussions. Any new routes that will be considered will all be driven by state/city participation in funding and cost-sharing.

As you look at the map, the major missing piece is a north-south train through Atlanta to Florida - or connecting to Florida in Savannah.

it shouldn't just be an Atlanta to Florida train either, i'd like to see a Midwest to Florida train reinstated. i think this could be possibly done with bringing back the Floridian train, with the main portion going through Atlanta, Chattanooga and Macon towards either Savannah or Jacksonville(slightly different from the original Floridian, which ran into Birmingham and Alabama), and a branch going south from Nashville and through Birmingham and Montgomery(replicating the original Floridian route). i'd either run it south from there to Dothan and along the original Floridian route, or it could run south towards Mobile or Pensacola, and then run east from there to Jacksonville, maybe as a possible daily train replacing the Sunset Limited, if it doesn't come back.

lol, you can see yet again i'm dreaming of possible train routes, but i'm sure someone who better knows the condition of the tracks and/or traffic along existing freight train routes or remaining trackage(and the condition of the track) could fill me in on how much of a hurdle it'd be to add new service in this area.

 

[Sam Damon]

Based on what you're suggesting, I'm concluding all LD trains east of the Mississippi (with the exception of the Pennsylvanian) appear in trouble.

Well, based on our conversation, I wouldn't go that far. Amtrak will serve markets that it thinks will be popular, and we all know that Florida is a very popular market. We didn't talk about what the likelihood was of losing the Silvers, or the Lake Shore, and frankly, I think we'll see corridor improvements on those lines before they get cancelled. That's my gut instinct; he didn't say anything to me directly about that.

Rafi, thanks for clarifying what you could. I do have a bit of experience with off-the-record conversations, so I won't bug you any further than I have already. Thanks once again for the insights.

IMO, based on what you've been able to tell us, Hughes seems to "get it." Hughes may well be the right man for Amtrak at this time, just as probably Gunn was the right man for Amtrak when *he* took over.

Whether he's got the political wherewithall to succeed is another question entirely. Claytor, for instance, seemed to have the right buttons ready to punch on the Hill when he needed them; will Hughes have the ability to do the same?

 

[Ben]

Rafi, I know you can't tell us everything that was said in the conversation, but I'm wondering if you can tell us this. Was anything said about the status of the Sunset? Also about adding/cutting long distance routes....were there any specifics? Will there be a major long distance route added, like another cross-country one? Please share all the info you are allowed to share....we are anxious to hear.

 

[Ben]

Ok Rafi, since it seems like you have to keep everything secret, atleast can you tell us if we should expect anything drastic in terms of additions/subtractions? The more details the better but it seems like you aren't allowed to.