Dynamic Brakes on Amtrak Diesel Trains

[John Bobinyec]

First off, I'm not talking about electric locomotives - only Amtrak's diesels.

Yesterday we took the Blue Ridge Autumn Special from Salisbury, NC, to Asheville, NC, and back. We had engines 156 on the point along with 154 and 10. 27 cars followed that. Traveling between Old Fort and Black Mountain was restricted to 15 mph while going up or down the mountain. Coming down, the brakes got extremely hot and started to smoke so bad that the train had to be stopped nearly at the bottom. We sat there for 20 minutes waiting for things to cool off. Once they did, we were off on our way. While we sat there, though, the first two cars (mine) filled up with brake smoke and gassed us all out.

I think the engineer should have used dynamic brakes (primarily) going down the mountain. Then things wouldn't have overheated. That, I think, was a mistake on somebody's part - but whose? Are the diesels equipped with dynamic brakes? Do Amtrak engineers know how to use them. It might have been an NS engineer - I'm not sure about that.

jb

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

As far as I know the P42 Fleet is equipped with Dynamics. If you look up the in-cab video of the Wolverine grade crossing accident a few years back you clearly hear them winding up shortly after the collision.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

the P42 has both dynamic and dynamic blended brake, the later works as soon as brakes are set up.

Smoke may have been from leaf residue.

 

[John Bobinyec]

If the smoke had been from leaf residue, we wouldn't have had to sit there while everything cooled off. Perhaps I didn't clarify - it was brake smoke - not leaf smoke. They don't smell anything like each other.

jb

 

[Thirdrail7]

If the smoke had been from leaf residue, we wouldn't have had to sit there while everything cooled off.

jb

Actually, it is good practice to do so. Leaf buildup in the brakes can and has caused fires. You wait for the brakes and associated rigging to cool down, then remove the build up of leaves.

.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Okay - leaf residue aside - the issue is why didn't the engineer use the dynamic brakes? If he had, there would not have been the need to stop due to overheated brakes, leaf residue or anything.

jb

 

[west point]

maybe dynamics became inoperative. Also 15 MPH may limit amount of Dynamics ? Could it have been NS engineer running train ? Know that is not protocol but ?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Okay - leaf residue aside - the issue is why didn't the engineer use the dynamic brakes? If he had, there would not have been the need to stop due to overheated brakes, leaf residue or anything.

jb

And how do you know if he didn't? Were you in the engine? How do you know if there are operating instructions on this particular (sub)division that blended brakes ( a mixture of air, independent and dynamic brakes on engines so equipped)must be used? Are you qualified on the operating or air brake rules? Perhaps there is a restriction indicating that dynamic brakes are not to be used under 15mph. How do you know if the dynamic brakes were strong enough? Depending on the conditions,they are not entirely effective at speeds under 15mph and air brakes allow for supplemental air brakes on the train and/or engine. Were you the engine to ascertain the performance of the dynamic brakes? Was it slippery out? Was the train sliding along the leaves? Was that creating an overload of the dynamic brakes as they slid along necessitating supplemental air brakes? Were the tracks wet? Did leaves accumulate in the under carriage and in the rigging and the moment the crew needed air, it immediately burnt the leaves? Were you in the engine or along the tracks to answer any of these questions?

I can go on and on creating scenarios that occur on a routine basis. So, to answer your question, the engines are equipped with dynamic brakes. Unless you can answer as to their effectiveness based upon prevailing conditions or if he did or did not use them , I'm not sure your original question is even valid let alone worthy of refutation.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

When I rode the TVRM excursion on this line a few years ago, they stopped before going down the mountain to set "retainer" brakes. (Do a google search on the for a better explanation than I could ever give.).

I don't think dynamic brakes are very effective at such slow speeds.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Okay - leaf residue aside - the issue is why didn't the engineer use the dynamic brakes? If he had, there would not have been the need to stop due to overheated brakes, leaf residue or anything.

jb

And how do you know if he didn't? I don't know. That's why I'm asking for someone who has similar experience or knowledge of the specific special instructions, etc....

Were you in the engine? No. I think that would have been obvious.

How do you know if there are operating instructions on this particular (sub)division that blended brakes ( a mixture of air, independent and dynamic brakes on engines so equipped)must be used? I don't. That was what I was searching for.

Are you qualified on the operating or air brake rules? No.

Perhaps there is a restriction indicating that dynamic brakes are not to be used under 15mph. Exactly. Is there?

How do you know if the dynamic brakes were strong enough? Again looking for someone with actual knowledge.

Depending on the conditions,they are not entirely effective at speeds under 15mph and air brakes allow for supplemental air brakes on the train and/or engine. Were you the engine to ascertain the performance of the dynamic brakes? I think we established that.

Was it slippery out? No. Please don't ask how I know this.

Was the train sliding along the leaves? No. Again - don't ask.

Was that creating an overload of the dynamic brakes as they slid along necessitating supplemental air brakes? I don't know.

Were the tracks wet? No.

Did leaves accumulate in the under carriage and in the rigging and the moment the crew needed air, it immediately burnt the leaves? No leaf smoke. See prior appends.

Were you in the engine or along the tracks to answer any of these questions? I'm pretty sure it has been established that I was riding IN the train, not under it, not in the engine, and not running alongside it.

I can go on and on creating scenarios that occur on a routine basis. Please don't. It has not been helpful.

So, to answer your question, the engines are equipped with dynamic brakes. Unless you can answer as to their effectiveness based upon prevailing conditions or if he did or did not use them , I'm not sure your original question is even valid let alone worthy of refutation.

Still looking for someone with ANSWERS rather than more questions.

jb

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The dynamic brake does not work below certain speeds and 15 MPH is probably below speed were dynamic still generates a brake effect.

on AC traction locomotives it is lower like 8 or 9 mph but the P42 is pure DC.

 

[John Bobinyec]

The dynamic brake does not work below certain speeds and 15 MPH is probably below speed were dynamic still generates a brake effect.

on AC traction locomotives it is lower like 8 or 9 mph but the P42 is pure DC.

Thank you very much. That was very helpful.

jb

 

[Hal]

Okay - leaf residue aside - the issue is why didn't the engineer use the dynamic brakes? If he had, there would not have been the need to stop due to overheated brakes, leaf residue or anything.

jb

And how do you know if he didn't? I don't know. That's why I'm asking for someone who has similar experience or knowledge of the specific special instructions, etc....

Were you in the engine? No. I think that would have been obvious.

How do you know if there are operating instructions on this particular (sub)division that blended brakes ( a mixture of air, independent and dynamic brakes on engines so equipped)must be used? I don't. That was what I was searching for.

Are you qualified on the operating or air brake rules? No.

Perhaps there is a restriction indicating that dynamic brakes are not to be used under 15mph. Exactly. Is there?

How do you know if the dynamic brakes were strong enough? Again looking for someone with actual knowledge.

Depending on the conditions,they are not entirely effective at speeds under 15mph and air brakes allow for supplemental air brakes on the train and/or engine. Were you the engine to ascertain the performance of the dynamic brakes? I think we established that.

Was it slippery out? No. Please don't ask how I know this.

Was the train sliding along the leaves? No. Again - don't ask.

Was that creating an overload of the dynamic brakes as they slid along necessitating supplemental air brakes? I don't know.

Were the tracks wet? No.

Did leaves accumulate in the under carriage and in the rigging and the moment the crew needed air, it immediately burnt the leaves? No leaf smoke. See prior appends.

Were you in the engine or along the tracks to answer any of these questions? I'm pretty sure it has been established that I was riding IN the train, not under it, not in the engine, and not running alongside it.

I can go on and on creating scenarios that occur on a routine basis. Please don't. It has not been helpful.

So, to answer your question, the engines are equipped with dynamic brakes. Unless you can answer as to their effectiveness based upon prevailing conditions or if he did or did not use them , I'm not sure your original question is even valid let alone worthy of refutation.

Still looking for someone with ANSWERS rather than more questions.

jb

You said in your post opening the thread that you thought a mistake was made. That was presumptuous.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Let's review. You were on the train...and we weren't. Yet, here you are asking US if the engineer used the dynamic brakes and are asking us about the conditions of the move. Splendid: Which leads me to your original post:

I think the engineer should have used dynamic brakes (primarily) going down the mountain. Then things wouldn't have overheated. That, I think, was a mistake on somebody's part - but whose? Are the diesels equipped with dynamic brakes? Do Amtrak engineers know how to use them. It might have been an NS engineer - I'm not sure about that.

jb

Then we ask how do you know if the engine crew didn't use the dynamic brakes and your answer is you don't know that they did or didn't. Which of course completely obliterates your statement about "then things wouldn't have overheated" because for all you know, he DID use the dynamic brakes and they weren't enough, etc (see my above list.)

Priceless. Unfortunately, my crystal ball and time machine are both broken and in a wild sense of bad timing, I'm out of mind reading pills.

The crystal ball should be the first thing fixed and my time machine may start working on or about the same date. The mind reading pills? I'm not expecting my supply yo be replenished soon so which ever one becomes available first, I will utilize them to look back in time to the exact moment the train that you were operating through the mountain and ascertain whether or not the engineer used dynamic brakes, what the conditions were (since no two trains behave the exact same way, particularly during different conditions) etc.

That may be our only option unless someone gets in contact with the engine crew or pulls a download ( which I doubt anyone is going to do) to find out exactly what happened.

I'll keep you abreast though. I think my flux capicitator is almost complete.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Okay - leaf residue aside - the issue is why didn't the engineer use the dynamic brakes? If he had, there would not have been the need to stop due to overheated brakes, leaf residue or anything.

jb

And how do you know if he didn't? I don't know. That's why I'm asking for someone who has similar experience or knowledge of the specific special instructions, etc....

Were you in the engine? No. I think that would have been obvious.

How do you know if there are operating instructions on this particular (sub)division that blended brakes ( a mixture of air, independent and dynamic brakes on engines so equipped)must be used? I don't. That was what I was searching for.

Are you qualified on the operating or air brake rules? No.

Perhaps there is a restriction indicating that dynamic brakes are not to be used under 15mph. Exactly. Is there?

How do you know if the dynamic brakes were strong enough? Again looking for someone with actual knowledge.

Depending on the conditions,they are not entirely effective at speeds under 15mph and air brakes allow for supplemental air brakes on the train and/or engine. Were you the engine to ascertain the performance of the dynamic brakes? I think we established that.

Was it slippery out? No. Please don't ask how I know this.

Was the train sliding along the leaves? No. Again - don't ask.

Was that creating an overload of the dynamic brakes as they slid along necessitating supplemental air brakes? I don't know.

Were the tracks wet? No.

Did leaves accumulate in the under carriage and in the rigging and the moment the crew needed air, it immediately burnt the leaves? No leaf smoke. See prior appends.

Were you in the engine or along the tracks to answer any of these questions? I'm pretty sure it has been established that I was riding IN the train, not under it, not in the engine, and not running alongside it.

I can go on and on creating scenarios that occur on a routine basis. Please don't. It has not been helpful.

So, to answer your question, the engines are equipped with dynamic brakes. Unless you can answer as to their effectiveness based upon prevailing conditions or if he did or did not use them , I'm not sure your original question is even valid let alone worthy of refutation.

Still looking for someone with ANSWERS rather than more questions.

jb

You said in your post opening the thread that you thought a mistake was made. That was presumptuous.

I still think there is a problem. Many folks are looking forward to a time when there are passenger trains running again between Asheville and Salisbury. After yesterday's trip I have my doubts that it will ever happen. In order to be viable, the schedules will have to be as good as or probably better than what they once were - which is 4 hours. In order to beat that, speeds will have to be increased dramatically. Being restricted to 15 mph won't work. Maybe running very large trains won't work. Maybe certain types of equipment shouldn't be handled in such a very large train or perhaps placed in the train differently.

In any case, I bet the good folks at the NC Transportation Museum will be looking for answers to the "what could we have done better" question, and the top one will be how to get the train down the hill without having to stop it in order to cool the brakes.

jb

 

[John Bobinyec]

Let's review. You were on the train...and we weren't. Yet, here you are asking US if the engineer used the dynamic brakes and are asking us about the conditions of the move. Splendid: Which leads me to your original post:

I think the engineer should have used dynamic brakes (primarily) going down the mountain. Then things wouldn't have overheated. That, I think, was a mistake on somebody's part - but whose? Are the diesels equipped with dynamic brakes? Do Amtrak engineers know how to use them. It might have been an NS engineer - I'm not sure about that.

jb

Then we ask how do you know if the engine crew didn't use the dynamic brakes and your answer is you don't know that they did or didn't. Which of course completely obliterates your statement about "then things wouldn't have overheated" because for all you know, he DID use the dynamic brakes and they weren't enough, etc (see my above list.)

Priceless. Unfortunately, my crystal ball and time machine are both broken and in a wild sense of bad timing, I'm out of mind reading pills.

The crystal ball should be the first thing fixed and my time machine may start working on or about the same date. The mind reading pills? I'm not expecting my supply yo be replenished soon so which ever one becomes available first, I will utilize them to look back in time to the exact moment the train that you were operating through the mountain and ascertain whether or not the engineer used dynamic brakes, what the conditions were (since no two trains behave the exact same way, particularly during different conditions) etc.

That may be our only option unless someone gets in contact with the engine crew or pulls a download ( which I doubt anyone is going to do) to find out exactly what happened.

I'll keep you abreast though. I think my flux capicitator is almost complete.

Thanks. Looking forward to it.

jb

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

If you are close enough to hear you may be able to pick up the distinctive whine and throttle up that goes with Dynamic Brake application. The BNSF passes about a mile from my house and there is a gentle grade coming in/out of Norman. At night when it is quiet I can easily tell when a Freight Engineer running heavy has decided to put hisd Dynamics into the mix-a very soothing sound.

 

[Acela150]

I can tell you that NS engineers are trained to use the Dynamic Brake to slow trains. I know of one Engineer that I work with who will rarely use dynamic braking. But he's also been out here for many years.

 

[TinCan782]

Wow, this is starting to sound (read) like a Trainorders thread!

 

[Agent]

If it helps, FNGFASHA Productions on YouTube filmed yesterday's Blue Ridge Autumn Special at a couple different locations. Overheated brake shoes are mentioned in the video's description.

 

[west point]

It may have been some of the heritage cars were not doing their part for brakes. + some were heavy weight as well.

By the time Salisbury - Asheville service is ever started you may expect AC traction locos to be assigned ?

 

[MattW]

Ok, so maybe here's the real question which likely can't be answered. Either we don't have anyone that knows, or we do, and they can't say. Why is there a 15mph restriction? If the train was going faster, then could the dynamic brakes work to maintain speed on the grade? I'll field a WAG (Wild something Guess) that given that this route doesn't see normal passenger service, the rules are set for the typical trains which will be freight, and longer and without all the fancier brake equipment passenger trains have and they weren't going to rewrite the rulebook/special instructions/issue waivers/etc. for just one train.

 

[xyzzy]

I am overseas and don't have access to my collection of Southern ETTs from the early-mid 1970s. Seems to me that when trains 3 and 4 were discontinued, they were allowed 20 or 25 mph on the mountain. NS ETTs as far back as 2005, perhaps longer, impose 15 mph eastbound between MP S 111.3 to MP S 123.0, except for light engines.

 

[TheTuck]

My educated guess is that the grade was too steep to hold the 27 cars at the required speed. If a lot of air is also needed for long and steep grades, stopping to cool down is sometimes necessary. Seems like the train needed 4 units. The P42 dynos will begin dropping out around 10 mph so this shouldn't be the issue.

 

[Seaboard92]

I was chasing this train from SAL-ASH-OLF you probably saw me in the first few cars we we're the Blue Honda CRV. On our radio we had, we heard the engineer complaining that the dynamics weren't that good. But I did hear the whine of the dynamics as you guys were coming down. I got some good photos of it. If you PM me I'll send you some photos from yesterday. Hope you had a pleasant trip despite the delays.

Sometimes I leave my office to chase a good train or two.