We are taking the Empire Builder in July from Seattle to Chicago, then Capitol Lmited to Cleveland. What is Amtrak's policy on holding trains when a connecting train is late. i've noticed that #8 has been pretty late into Chicago recently. Do they put you up in a hotel and put you on the next train or are you on your own for making connection?
EB Delay
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montana mike
Conductor
The #8 EB is over 6 hours behind again this morning. Bummer.
Pat Harper
Lead Service Attendant
That is a bummer! Any idea why? We'll be on that train in early August, going both directions. Is it late coming into to CHI, or was it also late getting into SEA?
Ispolkom
Engineer
There was a derailment near Snowden, Montana. Apparently it's still causing delays, perhaps because of slow orders near the derailment site and general congestion. #8(25) lost an hour between Glasgow and Wolf Point, another between Wolf Point and Williston, and nearly two between Williston and Stanley. Man, 3:18 a.m. is later than I've ever arrived in Minot.
montana mike
Conductor
The Eastbound EB is now around 8 hours late!!! Ouch The westbound EB is not doing too much better. Bad time for a derailment. I would expect that the increased freight traffic from ND oil fields is also adding increased pressure on the entire situation as well. Several thousand tanker cars move on the BNSF and CN tracks each way every week now!
NW cannonball
Conductor
Today #8 the eb EB was 3:30 late at MSP and following stations - seems the situation's clearing -
but not good
but not good
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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So things didn't get any better. I took that train on August 18, as part of a trip to Canada. It reached Chicago 6 hours late, causing every passenger going further to miss their connections. The Lakeshore Limited people got a hotel voucher and continued 24 hours late on the next train. The Indiana passengers got a special bus. My trip had one explanation. This one had another. Seems like there's a curse on that route this year. In 2011, they simply stopped running it for three weeks in June. Probably saved many travelers from having sad stories.
M
Montana traveller
Guest
I am travelling E.B Chicago to Seattle on September 1st, flying in to Chicago from UK that morning, do you think things will be running smoothly by then? Any info. greatly appreciated
anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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There are no ongoing systemic problems this year, as compared to last year when record flooding caused multiple slow orders and outright line closures. For those of you who say the train is cursed, note that the train has only seen 4+ hour delays on perhaps 10 days total so far in 2012, with the vast majority of trains running on time or nearly so.
Between Fargo, ND and Havre, MT, the Empire Builder operates on a mostly single-track railroad that is running very close to capacity thanks in part to the recent ND oil boom. What that means is that any derailment or disruption that closes the line for more than a few hours is likely to cause Amtrak delays over the next 1-2 days as there are simply too many freights to clear, many of which are also running late and so can't be stopped for Amtrak.
Mark
Between Fargo, ND and Havre, MT, the Empire Builder operates on a mostly single-track railroad that is running very close to capacity thanks in part to the recent ND oil boom. What that means is that any derailment or disruption that closes the line for more than a few hours is likely to cause Amtrak delays over the next 1-2 days as there are simply too many freights to clear, many of which are also running late and so can't be stopped for Amtrak.
Mark
M
Montana traveller
Guest
Thanks for the quick reply, I didn't realise the ND oilfields were so big and would have such an impact on Amtrak
RRUserious
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The ROUTE is systemically flawed. It comes from the fact that this country values rail travel so little that it makes it the unloved younger brother of freight traffic. As for the number of 4+ hour delays, Amtrak said it had a 70 percent ontime record in May. I think so that we don't drift into the third kind of lies (as cited by Disraeli), maybe we should specify the time period in which those occurred. If they are closely grouped, then people who don't want or can't afford to be caught in an unadvertised Amtrak problem need to know. Truth is you can still drive yourself or fly. And you'll have to consider such options in a country with such a marginal commitment to rail travel. Makes me wonder what the comparable ontime percentage for Via Rail is. Maybe Canada never has derailments, floods, or oil tanker trains.
Well, I did discover where Via Rail reports its records. Chart I'd say this probably ranks with their airlines. Apparently they went from 77 percent in first quarter 2011 to 88 percent in first quarter 2012.. Well, I'll be checking June for Empire Builder.
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You can't compare all of VIA to just one train, the Empire Builder. That's not a fair comparison. With most of the corridor trains being on time, it makes the other longer distance trains look good. The truth in this can be seen even here with Amtrak.
As of April, 7 months into the current year, Amtrak's overall on time percentage is 84.9% up from 79.6% in fiscal 2011. For the month of April it's 86.1% on time this year vs. 82.6% last year.
Acela was on time 92.3% of the time so far this fiscal year. And that pulls up the long distance number, which was 75.2% up from 68.8% last year.
As of April, 7 months into the current year, Amtrak's overall on time percentage is 84.9% up from 79.6% in fiscal 2011. For the month of April it's 86.1% on time this year vs. 82.6% last year.
Acela was on time 92.3% of the time so far this fiscal year. And that pulls up the long distance number, which was 75.2% up from 68.8% last year.
And as further proof, according to this report on page 17, the Canadian only managed a 75% on time rating in 2011. Right on par with Amtrak's long distance trains.
anir dendroica
OBS Chief
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Well...I would agree that Amtrak is underfunded and a significant portion of delays are avoidable (especially those related to poor equipment maintenance and insufficient crew availability). And freight traffic does cause delays for Amtrak, though nowhere near the amount of delays that Amtrak causes for freights. I've always been impressed on the EB how many green signals we get past freights waiting on sidetracks. If we occasionally lose some time when a hotshot freight gets priority, I'm not going to complain. BNSF has more customers than Amtrak to satisfy, and some of those customers are paying a good deal more money.
That said, I don't think comparisons to airlines are fair. If a plane gets off the runway in Seattle on time, it's pretty much guaranteed to have an on-time arrival in Chicago. With the Empire Builder, on the other hand, any problem along the 2200 mile route - mudslide, derailment, track defect, freight breakdown, bad-ordered car, high winds, severe weather, etc. - can introduce a delay. Given that, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that the train runs on time 70% of the time. If a four- to eight-hour delay would destroy your plans or otherwise make you roaring mad, then a long-distance train may not be a good choice for you.
Mark
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Ryan
Court Jester
That's not true for a not-insignificant portion of our population.
montana mike
Conductor
When you look at JUST Train #8--ie. arriving in Chicago, the on time performance drops to under 10%!! for May and June has been worse. These past 4 weeks have seen delays over 6 hours on several occasions and at least one 8 hour late arrival, with routine tardiness of over 2 hours. I do believe the increase in the freight traffic, mostly energy related, is at least part of the cause, when you look at how much time #8 loses from ND all the way into Chicago (except for sometimes picking up a little time at MSP) at almost every station. This would appear to be the norm now. Not sure what can be done to help.
:-(
:-(
NW cannonball
Conductor
You plan on taking the Chicago EL from ORD to the AMTRAK station. This works almost 90% or better any time.
You'll get to CHI AMTK station no problem in under an hour.
The EB CHI - SEA will get you to SEA within no less than 6 hours late more than 95% of the time.
The EB route is subject to wildfires, blizzards (not in summer) , high winds anytime, freight congestion -- frequently -- but you can count on getting to SEA no later than 4 hours delay most always.\
I've done the EB #7 many times --
Leave some slack at SEA and your trip will be amazing -- double plus good scenery and fellow travelers are a good cross-section of responsible citizens
Do it - you'll like it
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M
Montana traveller
Guest
Thanks for all the replies, very useful and interesting. The Amtrak journey is the start of our vacation and we don't have a deadline to meet and so a 6 or 8 hour delay wouldn't cause problems and we would see it as part of the "adventure". As we have sleeping accommodation we can just spend more time in our cabin and enjoying the journey. Thanks to all who have replied.
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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Probably right. Any choice made with a full set of facts is a good choice. But a person really needs to find all the facts. They don't find the traveler. What Amtrak posts on its site only go part of the way. And I didn't find riders were eager to post any problems about their experiences. People jump on you and argue when you do post simple facts. Why anyone would want anything out there but the truth I don't know. Flyers don't seem so reticent about what sucks in their preferred mode of travel. And Amtrak has to realize it has problems to address. It can't become goto for most of the population if it doesn't accept that there are many passengers dealing with difficulties out there. A good train system is better than almost any alternative. But some trains are only about as good as alternatives.
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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After seeing warnings on Twitter about delays in the east, I went back to June 18 to see what warnings were given about Empire Builder in North Dakota. NONE! Seems odd that they have 22,000 tweets and not one about that serious delay. I follow Amtrak on Twitter. Yet it did me no good at all. So, again, I question the judgment of people at Amtrak.
Twitter
RR,
I'm going to tell you a little story that I hope you'll read in its entirety.
Back when I was 19 I was dating a girl whose father was a Sargent in the town's local police force and her mother worked as a 911 dispatcher. Because of that, on occasion we'd find ourselves in the dispatch center for the towns police, fire, and EMS. One night while I was there, a call came in for a young girl on a bike who had been hit by a car. If memory serves, she broke a leg, but I do know that it wasn't a serious life threatening situation.
Naturally of course the head office in charge dispatched an ambulance to the location to take her to the hospital. Just about the time the ambulance got to scene in came another call to the center regarding someone having a heart attack. For reasons that I no longer recall, the town only had one ambulance crew working that night. The Sargent in charge had less than a minute, max 2 minutes to try to decide what to do, because they were already starting to load the young girl onto the stretcher and into the ambulance.
And despite all of his training and experience, he simply couldn't work through all the possible alternatives fast enough. Yes, his first action to dispatch a cop was immediate and correct. But again, he was trying to think of how to get another ambulance with a crew that he didn't have to the victim. He didn't get around to considering that the best choice would have been to have the cop at the accident transport the young girl in the back seat of the squad car and send the ambulance off to the heart attack report. By the time he got to thinking of that option, it was already too late and the girl was in the ambulance and on her way to the hospital.
To make matters worse, the ambulance crew was forced to drive at reduced rate of speed because every bump was causing the girl considerable pain. And it turned out that the person having a heart attack was the father of one of the police officers on the force. Yes, the cops scooped him up and put him into a police car to rush him to the hospital, but they had nothing in the way of medical supplies to do anything to help him. And this was way before today's portable defibrillators.
Thankfully he survived. But that Sargent spent the next half hour kicking himself in the butt for not thinking of the correct solution fast enough to implement it. He was thoroughly pissed at himself; despite that fact that frankly IMHO he had made all the right moves basically and was stuck between a rock and a hard place with only seconds to puzzle through dozens of alternatives.
Now, I grant that matters at Amtrak aren't life & death, and often times they do have some more time to make a decision about what to do. Although there are times with a train approaching a station that they have only minutes to decide to hold that train or let it go on. But on the other side, Amtrak also has to contend with the fact that the decision isn't always theirs to make. The host RR can call up Amtrak at the last minute and say, "we're closing that route due to flooding. You'll have to find another way to get your train through."
Now, would you rather have that Amtrak dispatcher calling for buses or perhaps calling another RR to see if they would host a detour run or would you rather have that dispatcher putting out a tweet? A tweet that I might add, would probably only help a dozen people on that train. Unlike the corridor, where many business people do follow the special tweets for that corridor, most of those following the regular Amtrak twitter account are railfans. Not the average Joe on the train.
In conclusion let me say that I'm not trying to excuse Amtrak entirely. They can make some bonehead plays for sure. I wouldn't argue that. But through my story I'm also trying to point out that things aren't always as simple as they seem when you're sitting on the sidelines or even on the train. There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.
It's easy to second guess things after the fact. It's much harder to be the Johnny on the spot!
I'm going to tell you a little story that I hope you'll read in its entirety.
Back when I was 19 I was dating a girl whose father was a Sargent in the town's local police force and her mother worked as a 911 dispatcher. Because of that, on occasion we'd find ourselves in the dispatch center for the towns police, fire, and EMS. One night while I was there, a call came in for a young girl on a bike who had been hit by a car. If memory serves, she broke a leg, but I do know that it wasn't a serious life threatening situation.
Naturally of course the head office in charge dispatched an ambulance to the location to take her to the hospital. Just about the time the ambulance got to scene in came another call to the center regarding someone having a heart attack. For reasons that I no longer recall, the town only had one ambulance crew working that night. The Sargent in charge had less than a minute, max 2 minutes to try to decide what to do, because they were already starting to load the young girl onto the stretcher and into the ambulance.
And despite all of his training and experience, he simply couldn't work through all the possible alternatives fast enough. Yes, his first action to dispatch a cop was immediate and correct. But again, he was trying to think of how to get another ambulance with a crew that he didn't have to the victim. He didn't get around to considering that the best choice would have been to have the cop at the accident transport the young girl in the back seat of the squad car and send the ambulance off to the heart attack report. By the time he got to thinking of that option, it was already too late and the girl was in the ambulance and on her way to the hospital.
To make matters worse, the ambulance crew was forced to drive at reduced rate of speed because every bump was causing the girl considerable pain. And it turned out that the person having a heart attack was the father of one of the police officers on the force. Yes, the cops scooped him up and put him into a police car to rush him to the hospital, but they had nothing in the way of medical supplies to do anything to help him. And this was way before today's portable defibrillators.
Thankfully he survived. But that Sargent spent the next half hour kicking himself in the butt for not thinking of the correct solution fast enough to implement it. He was thoroughly pissed at himself; despite that fact that frankly IMHO he had made all the right moves basically and was stuck between a rock and a hard place with only seconds to puzzle through dozens of alternatives.
Now, I grant that matters at Amtrak aren't life & death, and often times they do have some more time to make a decision about what to do. Although there are times with a train approaching a station that they have only minutes to decide to hold that train or let it go on. But on the other side, Amtrak also has to contend with the fact that the decision isn't always theirs to make. The host RR can call up Amtrak at the last minute and say, "we're closing that route due to flooding. You'll have to find another way to get your train through."
Now, would you rather have that Amtrak dispatcher calling for buses or perhaps calling another RR to see if they would host a detour run or would you rather have that dispatcher putting out a tweet? A tweet that I might add, would probably only help a dozen people on that train. Unlike the corridor, where many business people do follow the special tweets for that corridor, most of those following the regular Amtrak twitter account are railfans. Not the average Joe on the train.
In conclusion let me say that I'm not trying to excuse Amtrak entirely. They can make some bonehead plays for sure. I wouldn't argue that. But through my story I'm also trying to point out that things aren't always as simple as they seem when you're sitting on the sidelines or even on the train. There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.
It's easy to second guess things after the fact. It's much harder to be the Johnny on the spot!
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I think the central issue is that Amtrak is TERRIBLE about advising passengers of delays and service disruptions. Today's issue with the NEC in the aftermath of the storm in DC is people's exhibit one. The trains were stopped at 10pm Friday night. The first mention on Amtrak's website was at 1:30pm Saturday - 15 hours after the fact. Yes, they put out the word on Twitter (sparingly, and late), but that should be secondary to the primary communications means - the website. Up until 1:30, no one checking the website would have a clue there was a problem. Trains not running is a problem worth mentioning.
The Amtrak operations center should have a person assigned to put significant delay and disruption information out via the website and Twitter, whether it is the NEC or the Empire Builder. That should be a core function. The minute or two that would require will not affect any of the other required actions.
The Amtrak operations center should have a person assigned to put significant delay and disruption information out via the website and Twitter, whether it is the NEC or the Empire Builder. That should be a core function. The minute or two that would require will not affect any of the other required actions.
RRUserious
OBS Chief
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I tweeted to @Amtrak if they put out a tweet on June 18 of the delay of the Chicago train. The answer from them "We don't know". Pretty typical I think. Makes me think of the number of times I was in a car where the announcements couldn't be heard. I kinda wondered if there wasn't an attendant whose job included knowing if the PA was reaching the cars in which she or he was working. It's this hit or miss pattern that really makes it a gamble when you climb aboard. Peter Drucker, I think it was, who said all problems are management problems. They are responsible to know what policies are and how well they are adhered to. If the events that happened are POLICY, then that is stupid. But if they are CONTRARY to policy, then management is in the dark about the failure of staff to follow the policies set out. Either way, the blame goes back to the top.
Hawkeye
Train Attendant
The Amtrak Status Maps site says the 8 had a service disruption today and they have no arrival/departure info at all - making it look like the train never left Seattle. Anyone know what's up?
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