The saga of Penn Station through-running continues...
https://www.etany.org/modernizing-new-york-commuter-rail
https://www.etany.org/modernizing-new-york-commuter-rail
This is discussed in the report...To really do through running I think you would need a new political entity that would span probably the 3 states involved (NY NJ and CT) which would take over NJT and MNRR. All of the examples they give of through running such as London and Philadelphia happen to already be under one political entity.
Yeah. If there's one (of two) cities in the USA that needs a unified S-Bahn network for operational reasons, it would be NYC. Getting everyone to agree to it is a different matter.To really do through running I think you would need a new political entity that would span probably the 3 states involved (NY NJ and CT) which would take over NJT and MNRR. All of the examples they give of through running such as London and Philadelphia happen to already be under one political entity.
Building 7 to Secaucus and building a station in the Sunnyside area (or revamping Hunters Point Avenue station, that has terminating platforms for LIRR trains may be a more effective and less expensive ways of reducing pressure of Penn Station. The side benefit is dispersal of point of arrival into the Metropolitan Region thus reducing pressure on Subways around Penn Station, something that is also possibly achieved by running through, but less so than improving connectivity into the Core from peripheral stations using SubwaysBased on their diagram I'm not certain you would need a tunnel linking NYP and GCT if you built the other commuter lines in their last diagram and were able to get through-running working efficiently. It would probably require more money overall than the tunnel, but you would have capacity improvements to take pressure off of NYP.
How would a Sunnyside station help?Building 7 to Secaucus and building a station in the Sunnyside area (or revamping Hunters Point Avenue station, that has terminating platforms for LIRR trains may be a more effective and less expensive ways of reducing pressure of Penn Station. The side benefit is dispersal of point of arrival into the Metropolitan Region thus reducing pressure on Subways around Penn Station, something that is also possibly achieved by running through, but less so than improving connectivity into the Core from peripheral stations using Subways
This could also make it easier then to run through just a subset of trains without costing another arm and leg for building more new infrastructure. But of course, new multi-system rolling stock will still be needed as the currently available rolling stock won;t make it across the Hudson Ocean from the NY side
There are many ways to skin a cat. But most of the proposal that involve cooperation between MTA and NJT will most probably not happen without restructuring the organizations and changing their primary goals significantly.
In any case I would be very surprised if even an agreement on doing any run through happens before 2050, let alone implementation, and finding the funding for it.
Terminate a bunch of LIRR trains there decongesting NYP. This is over and above the trains that get diverted to Grand Central Madison.How would a Sunnyside station help?
Then what do you do with all those commuters dropped in the middle of nowhere? I think the IRT 7 line is already loaded over capacity, even with CBTC, so adding a transfer station wouldn't help.Terminate a bunch of LIRR trains there decongesting NYP. This is over and above the trains that get diverted to Grand Central Madison.
Hunters Point Ave is next to the 7 station of the same name. The location of the proposed Sunnyside station is under the 7 line with a planned transfer station.Then what do you do with all those commuters dropped in the middle of nowhere? I think the IRT 7 line is already loaded over capacity, even with CBTC, so adding a transfer station wouldn't help.
Telling commuters that they'll need to transfer from their comfy LIRR seats to an overcrowded 7 train? They'll hear the screams all the way in Hoboken.Hunters Poit Ave is next to the 7 station of the same name. The location of the proposed Sunnyside station is under the 7 line with a planned transfer station.
I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to decongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.Changing the subject - Sunnyside would be a redundant and useless station. The office buildings are mostly between Court House Road and Queensborough Plaza el stations. Take the #7 from the LIRR at Woodside or Hunterspoint.
What problem does that solve? "Hey you've dealing with the joke of Penn Station since the beginning of time (it was never great). It's getting kind of full. How about we make it all worse?"I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to Youdecongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.
No reason to complain? How about that LIRR peak service from Jamaica to NYP is scheduled to take 19 minutes, while the E train is scheduled at around 40 minutes? And that 40 minutes will be in a noisy subway car with limited hard seating, rather than a comfy M9 seat with electrical outlets ?I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to decongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.
Don't underestimate "Cadillac commuting," as the experience of Brightline's success with Miami - West Pam Beach shows. Also, I myself often used to commute on Amtrak between Baltimore and Washington. despite having perfectly good MARC service.No reason to complain? How about that LIRR peak service from Jamaica to NYP is scheduled to take 19 minutes, while the E train is scheduled at around 40 minutes? And that 40 minutes will be in a noisy subway car with limited hard seating, rather than a comfy M9 seat with electrical outlets ?
And again, the 7 train is packed to the gills during peak hours. I don't have experience with the E train, but I would guess it's not much better by the time it approaches Manhattan.
The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.People want to go to Penn Station.
This is exactly the principle that I have been trying to articulate, but you said it better than I.The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.
I don't think that's a fair statement. NYP is less than half a mile from the Empire State Building, which is over 90% occupied. It's about 3/4 mi. from Hudson Yards. While this study seems to show that the densest Midtown office area is slightly north of NYP, much of it is within a 1 mile walk, and the rest is mostly one or two subway stops away.The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.
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