Empire & Lake Shore Limited Weather cancellations

[Railbender]

Noticed this morning that as of Sunday night 2/4, and through today 2/5 Empire and LSL service was being cancelled with bus reroutes due to snow and cold. That intrigued me...that a bus could function where a train could not...

Is it primarily the zero-and-below temps that cause the host of water line freeze-ups, etc. or the depth of the snow or both that force this action?

I have been on the LSL (and Silver Service) when toilets and water lines freeze...not a good thing.

Just curious to hear from some of you experts...

 

[AlanB]

Here's Amtrak's press release on the problem.

Service Alert: Empire Service, Maple Leaf - Service Suspended between Albany and Points West Due to Severe Weather Conditions
February 5, 2007, 10:20 am EDT

Severe cold weather and heavy snow conditions in Northern New York State have required train cancellations west of Albany.

All Empire Service trains west of Albany, including Utica, Syracuse, Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Toronto and intermediate stops is canceled today, Monday, February 5. Trains will operate between Albany and New York City.

The Maple Leaf is cancelled between Toronto and Albany

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates.

The full press release can be seen here.

 

[AlanB]

Noticed this morning that as of Sunday night 2/4, and through today 2/5 Empire and LSL service was being cancelled with bus reroutes due to snow and cold. That intrigued me...that a bus could function where a train could not...
Is it primarily the zero-and-below temps that cause the host of water line freeze-ups, etc. or the depth of the snow or both that force this action?

I have been on the LSL (and Silver Service) when toilets and water lines freeze...not a good thing.

Just curious to hear from some of you experts...

Where did you hear that they were using buses? I'm not saying that they're not, but I can't confirm that and the Amtrak press release says that service is suspended. It makes no mention of alternative busing, which it would usually do.

However, to answer your question, first buses can be routed further south in some cases to avoid the worst of the problems. Even though that might mean skipping a few stops. Most likely it's the depth of the snow that forced the cancellations, not the cold. Finally, most likely it wasn't Amtrak's decision to cancel service, most likely they got told by CSX that they would not be granted passage due to the extreme conditions.

 

[Railbender]

Where did you hear that they were using buses? I'm not saying that they're not, but I can't confirm that and the Amtrak press release says that service is suspended. It makes no mention of alternative busing, which it would usually do.
However, to answer your question, first buses can be routed further south in some cases to avoid the worst of the problems. Even though that might mean skipping a few stops. Most likely it's the depth of the snow that forced the cancellations, not the cold. Finally, most likely it wasn't Amtrak's decision to cancel service, most likely they got told by CSX that they would not be granted passage due to the extreme conditions.

The 11:00 p.m. last-night, Sunday night, press release posted on Amtrak mentioned buses...here is a quote from the Albany Times Union at 8:00 a.m. this morning...

"Amtrak announced Sunday evening that Empire Service trains would not run between Niagara Falls and Albany today, but bus service would be arranged. Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited service between Chicago and Albany also was canceled."

From http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp...wsdate=2/5/2007

So I guess it was between Niagara Falls and Albany that buses were running... Because the same article mentions, and our Erie, PA tv news was reporting the NY State Thruway shut down for 38 miles last night.

It is bitter cold and snowy here...ahhhhh, the Lake Effect....as of January 18 we had not experienced any of this yet, but since then we managed to pull off the 10th snowiest January in Erie history!! As wintry as it is here, appears that closer to the PA/NY line they are getting pummelled with feet of snow... It always depends on how the wind is blowing!

(edited to fix quote - AmtrakWPK)

 

[LateShoreLimited]

The busses were used on Sunday to complete the travel of people who had already begun their journey. Train #63 and #281 terminated at Rochester and #285 terminated in Syracuse. Train #49 was cancelled at Albany. There was no alternate transportation for Monday. The cold was a problem yesterday but the major factor was a CSX derailment just outside of Frontier yard in Buffalo. Train #284 and #48 were routed through the yard but #64 and #288 were stuck at Buffalo Exchange Street. CSX was unable or unwilling to give an estimate on when the trains could make it through so the decision was made just to cancel. It's been a great couple of weeks for CSX in Western New York with derailments a weekly occurence. I hope they are enjoying their profits.

 

[Railbender]

The busses were used on Sunday to complete the travel of people who had already begun their journey. Train #63 and #281 terminated at Rochester and #285 terminated in Syracuse. Train #49 was cancelled at Albany. There was no alternate transportation for Monday. The cold was a problem yesterday but the major factor was a CSX derailment just outside of Frontier yard in Buffalo. Train #284 and #48 were routed through the yard but #64 and #288 were stuck at Buffalo Exchange Street. CSX was unable or unwilling to give an estimate on when the trains could make it through so the decision was made just to cancel. It's been a great couple of weeks for CSX in Western New York with derailments a weekly occurence. I hope they are enjoying their profits.

Thanks, LateShore.

Here is the latest from Amtrak:

"Service Alert: Empire Service Scheduled to Resume Tuesday, February 6 between Albany and Points West

February 5, 2007, 3:00 pm EST

Severe cold weather and heavy snow conditions in Northern New York State have required cancellation of Empire Service west of Albany today, including the New York City-Toronto Maple Leaf. Empire Service will resume, Tuesday, February 6 along its entire route, except for train #280, which will originate in Albany instead of Niagara Falls.

Canceled yesterday, the Chicago-New York City Lake Shore Limited service resumes with Monday February 5 departures from both terminal cities. Passengers can expect delays of approximately 90 minutes in the Buffalo, NY area due to severe weather conditions.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates."

So, tonight's Late Shore Limited (east & west) IS a go, just late...90 minutes? If the west-bound is only that late it'll practically be EARLY!

 

[Dutchrailnut]

The cancelation was due to two CSX derailments in Buffalo area, this resulted in trains outlkawed all over place, and with snowstorm not much chance to recrew. so there was not much track left that Amtrak could run on.

 

[AlanB]

Canceled yesterday, the Chicago-New York City Lake Shore Limited service resumes with Monday February 5 departures from both terminal cities. Passengers can expect delays of approximately 90 minutes in the Buffalo, NY area due to severe weather conditions.
So, tonight's Late Shore Limited (east & west) IS a go, just late...90 minutes? If the west-bound is only that late it'll practically be EARLY!

I'm shocked that they are even trying to get through with over 3 feet of snow having already come down in Erie county New York and still more expected tonight . Erie Country includes Buffalo and the areas just south of Buffalo.

 

[Mike S.]

Right, but here lies the misconception. Yes, Buffalo is in Erie county. However, the "snowbelts" are south of the city. Yes, the city does occasionally get lake effect snow...and sometimes wildly high amounts, but about 80% of the time all the lake effect activity is south of the city. This would only hamper the LSL. The empire service/maple leaf come through Niagara Falls and never stray south of the city. I belive the main hicup with the empire service trains would have been caused by the amount of snow in and around the Syracuse area.

It was 0 last night. However, its below zero lots of places in the US that trains travel (MI, Empire Builder, etc..)......so....do they cancel those services? I think the NYS trains were cancelled b/c of snow and not really the cold.

 

[Railbender]

Right, but here lies the misconception. Yes, Buffalo is in Erie county. However, the "snowbelts" are south of the city. Yes, the city does occasionally get lake effect snow...and sometimes wildly high amounts, but about 80% of the time all the lake effect activity is south of the city. This would only hamper the LSL. The empire service/maple leaf come through Niagara Falls and never stray south of the city. I belive the main hicup with the empire service trains would have been caused by the amount of snow in and around the Syracuse area.
It was 0 last night. However, its below zero lots of places in the US that trains travel (MI, Empire Builder, etc..)......so....do they cancel those services? I think the NYS trains were cancelled b/c of snow and not really the cold.

Same misconception for PA though I have joked about the lake effect...it is actuall north and east of here, near the PA/NY boder that gets hammered the most. And usually about 10 miles inland away from the lake where the rise in the land is. Although its been snowing and blowing again here tonight for about the last four hours.

Is there a difference in how the bilevel trains perform in the cold vs. the single level (I forget which is Viewliner/Superliner)? Is the equipment on the LSL older, more prone to freezing up?

If you look at a satellite weather map during one of these arctic blasts you actually see various pockets of the heaviest snowfall all along the LSL route. Coming off Lakes Michigan, Erie and Ontario...depends on the direction of the wind. So I bet the snow is the main culprit OR the combination of the two, really.

 

[AlanB]

Right, but here lies the misconception. Yes, Buffalo is in Erie county. However, the "snowbelts" are south of the city. Yes, the city does occasionally get lake effect snow...and sometimes wildly high amounts, but about 80% of the time all the lake effect activity is south of the city. This would only hamper the LSL. The empire service/maple leaf come through Niagara Falls and never stray south of the city. I belive the main hicup with the empire service trains would have been caused by the amount of snow in and around the Syracuse area.
It was 0 last night. However, its below zero lots of places in the US that trains travel (MI, Empire Builder, etc..)......so....do they cancel those services? I think the NYS trains were cancelled b/c of snow and not really the cold.

Mike,

All of what you say is true, and I do appreciate the explanation even though I already knew that.

However, I was only refering to the LSL in my statement about them trying to get through. :lol:

 

[AlanB]

Is there a difference in how the bilevel trains perform in the cold vs. the single level (I forget which is Viewliner/Superliner)? Is the equipment on the LSL older, more prone to freezing up?

First let's clarify things. The Superliners are the bilevel trians; while the single level LD trains are comprised of Viewliner sleepers, Amfleet II coaches and cafes, and Heritage diners.

Now all that said, the Viewliners are newer than all other cars, the Heritage cars are the oldest cars around. The Superliners and the Amfleets come down in the middle, with about half of the Superliner fleet being newer than the other half.

The Superliner cars do the best in extreme cold, since almost all water, plumbing, and tanks remain inside the car. Whereas on the single level cars, there are many pipes that are exposed to the elements. Part of the problem however still just lies with how the crews deal with the cars, especially in the yards. You can't remove the power from the cars for any length of time without them freezing up very quickly. There are other cautions that must also be taken and sometimes either workers fail to take those precautions or circumstances prevent it.

 

[Railbender]

The busses were used on Sunday to complete the travel of people who had already begun their journey. Train #63 and #281 terminated at Rochester and #285 terminated in Syracuse. Train #49 was cancelled at Albany. There was no alternate transportation for Monday. The cold was a problem yesterday but the major factor was a CSX derailment just outside of Frontier yard in Buffalo. Train #284 and #48 were routed through the yard but #64 and #288 were stuck at Buffalo Exchange Street. CSX was unable or unwilling to give an estimate on when the trains could make it through so the decision was made just to cancel. It's been a great couple of weeks for CSX in Western New York with derailments a weekly occurence. I hope they are enjoying their profits.

Thanks, LateShore.

Here is the latest from Amtrak:

"Service Alert: Empire Service Scheduled to Resume Tuesday, February 6 between Albany and Points West

February 5, 2007, 3:00 pm EST

Severe cold weather and heavy snow conditions in Northern New York State have required cancellation of Empire Service west of Albany today, including the New York City-Toronto Maple Leaf. Empire Service will resume, Tuesday, February 6 along its entire route, except for train #280, which will originate in Albany instead of Niagara Falls.

Canceled yesterday, the Chicago-New York City Lake Shore Limited service resumes with Monday February 5 departures from both terminal cities. Passengers can expect delays of approximately 90 minutes in the Buffalo, NY area due to severe weather conditions.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates."

So, tonight's Late Shore Limited (east & west) IS a go, just late...90 minutes? If the west-bound is only that late it'll practically be EARLY!

I guess I was wrong here. It appears that the Monday night departures (2/5) from each endpoint were canceled for the Lake Shore... at least from the incomplete Train Status reports I have tried to get on Amtrak.com. Know anything different?

I can gather that 48 left Chicago 2 h, 42 min late or 10:37 p.m., but not much else. Where is it now? I can get nothing for 49 from NYP... Anybody have an update beyond this? I may give our station a call and see if the attendant can enlighten me.

 

[Railbender]

The busses were used on Sunday to complete the travel of people who had already begun their journey. Train #63 and #281 terminated at Rochester and #285 terminated in Syracuse. Train #49 was cancelled at Albany. There was no alternate transportation for Monday. The cold was a problem yesterday but the major factor was a CSX derailment just outside of Frontier yard in Buffalo. Train #284 and #48 were routed through the yard but #64 and #288 were stuck at Buffalo Exchange Street. CSX was unable or unwilling to give an estimate on when the trains could make it through so the decision was made just to cancel. It's been a great couple of weeks for CSX in Western New York with derailments a weekly occurence. I hope they are enjoying their profits.

Thanks, LateShore.

Here is the latest from Amtrak:

"Service Alert: Empire Service Scheduled to Resume Tuesday, February 6 between Albany and Points West

February 5, 2007, 3:00 pm EST

Severe cold weather and heavy snow conditions in Northern New York State have required cancellation of Empire Service west of Albany today, including the New York City-Toronto Maple Leaf. Empire Service will resume, Tuesday, February 6 along its entire route, except for train #280, which will originate in Albany instead of Niagara Falls.

Canceled yesterday, the Chicago-New York City Lake Shore Limited service resumes with Monday February 5 departures from both terminal cities. Passengers can expect delays of approximately 90 minutes in the Buffalo, NY area due to severe weather conditions.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates."

So, tonight's Late Shore Limited (east & west) IS a go, just late...90 minutes? If the west-bound is only that late it'll practically be EARLY!

I guess I was wrong here. It appears that the Monday night departures (2/5) from each endpoint were canceled for the Lake Shore... at least from the incomplete Train Status reports I have tried to get on Amtrak.com. Know anything different?

I can gather that 48 left Chicago 2 h, 42 min late or 10:37 p.m., but not much else. Where is it now? I can get nothing for 49 from NYP... Anybody have an update beyond this? I may give our station a call and see if the attendant can enlighten me.

MORE CANCELLATIONS/CHANGES DUE TO WEATHER:

"Service Alert: Severe cold blast leads to some train cancellations in Illinois & Michigan: some Lincoln Service & Wolverine Service affected, along with Carl Sandburg and Blue Water trains

February 5, 2007, 11:30 pm EST

Severe cold weather and a resulting shortage of available railcars has led Amtrak to cancel Lincoln Service Trains 301 & 306, the early morning and late afternoon departures from Chicago and St. Louis, respectively, on Tuesday, February 6. Four other round-trips are scheduled to operate on that route and passengers are being contacted and offered reaccommodation.

One of the three Chicago-Detroit-Pontiac, Mich., Wolverine Service trains are also cancelled on Tuesday, Trains 350 & 355, the morning and evening departures from Chicago and Pontiac, respectively. Two other round-trips are scheduled to operate on that route and passengers are being contacted and offered reaccommodation.

One of the two Chicago-Quincy round-trips, Trains 381 & 382, the Carl Sandburg, is cancelled on Tuesday, February 6. Passengers are being contacted and offered reaccommodation on Trains 380 & 383, the Illinois Zephyr .

Also cancelled on Tuesday, February 6, is Train 365, the westbound Blue Water from Port Huron., Mich., to Chicago. Chartered motorcoaches will serve as alternate transportation.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates."

-From Amtrak.com...I am guessing the problems in NY state are having a rippling effect?

 

[VentureForth]

Latest:

Service Alert: Empire Service Scheduled to Resume Tuesday, February 6 between Albany and Points West
February 5, 2007, 3:00 pm EST

Severe cold weather and heavy snow conditions in Northern New York State have required cancellation of Empire Service west of Albany today, including the New York City-Toronto Maple Leaf. Empire Service will resume, Tuesday, February 6 along its entire route, except for train #280, which will originate in Albany instead of Niagara Falls.

Canceled yesterday, the Chicago-New York City Lake Shore Limited service resumes with Monday February 5 departures from both terminal cities. Passengers can expect delays of approximately 90 minutes in the Buffalo, NY area due to severe weather conditions.

This information is correct as of the date and time above and will be updated as needed. Passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com for additional information and train status updates.

I'd LOVE To see pictures of any Amtrak train traveling in train-high snow!

 

[Railbender]

I see that both the east- and west-bound Lake Shore Limited DID pass through Erie, PA this morning, considerably late, but each made it this far!

I also noticed the explanation from Save Our Trains on another post "The Chicago Meltdown" about what is going on with the MI and IL trains...

Bummer; what a mess...