EuropeTravel

[MiniMax]

Greetings fellow Amtrak travelers, My wife and I are planning a trip to Spain, France and The Netherlands this June/July. Naturally, we will want to do all of the internal travel by rail. I looked at the EuroRail site and apparently, you can't book this far in advance. Anyone know any different? Any tips on this trip are welcome. Best, Gene

 

[Gavin]

I have found seat61.com is a Very helpful sight for European rail travel

God Bless

Gavin

 

[TransAtlantic]

You can book point-to-point tickets online with RailEurope, but hopefully you'll be using a railpass (at least for the longer stretches), in which case you must book at the station in your country of departure. And as I see you're doing both France and Spain, take my well-experienced advice, and (unless you just want to do it to see what the thing is like) do NOT take the TrenHotel between Madrid/Paris or Barcelona/Paris!! The supplement is at LEAST 80 dollars per person (for second class!), as it is an all-sleeper train, but no faster than my preferred route; that is, go from either of the Spanish cities to Hendaye (on the French/Spanish border - there's a dual station) where you can change to the TGV to get to Paris or other points. A sleeper, followed by a morning TGV this past February ran me about $30...first class, by myself, complete w/ in-room shower, from Madrid to Hendaye. More space, cheaper, and (oddly) almost as fast, especially with the TGV connection.

As far as reservations, I have only had to deal with ONE sold-out train EVER in scores of voyages around Europe, and that was when I tried to get from Paris to Florence on a sleeper 4 hours before departure - so I went to Rome instead, which was available, and only 90 min. from Florence via ES Italia. If you've got your days and cities planned, try to make the reservations at the nearest station when you arrive in each city for your next leg. Oh, and on that note, one reason I push the railpasses is that the First Class is usually less likely to sell out (not to mention more space, amenities, and quiet).

For shorter day trips (around NL, cathedral towns within 90 mins. of Paris, beaches near Barcelona, Bilbao, etc.), trains are cheap and frequent, so don't waste rail days on those. Get just what you need for the longer stretches. The one splurge I would recommend is the Thalys service between Paris and Amsterdam. Basically the regular TGV consist, but outfitted more luxuriously, and including at-seat meal service (which is why it's a 20 euro supplement instead of the usual 7 euros for the regular TGV).

If you've not been to the continent before, make sure you have a grasp of basic traveling words and phrases (e.g., train station: gare, estacion/estacio, bahnhof, etc.) so you'll know what to look for in terms of signage. Almost everyone speaks English, though, especially those working for the railroad; just make sure to ask first in France, "Parlez-vous anglais?" - it's a common courtesy, and you will be treated very well for following a simple local custom.

Wish I could go with you...oh, well, September's soon enough I suppose...

 

[crack_baby_crack]

If you've not been to the continent before, make sure you have a grasp of basic traveling words and phrases (e.g., train station: gare, estacion/estacio, bahnhof, etc.) so you'll know what to look for in terms of signage. Almost everyone speaks English, though, especially those working for the railroad; just make sure to ask first in France, "Parlez-vous anglais?" - it's a common courtesy, and you will be treated very well for following a simple local custom.

This is good advice. Though be careful to let them know somehow(without actually saying so unless asked) that you are American/Canadian. The French are very spikey towards us English, so i think you'd fair better!

As for asking any Dutch people if they speak English is like asking them if they can count to 3.

 

[Guest]

Rail Europe point to point information is limited. It does not give you the full schedule of trains available. The best for getting all train information is the German site. Google bahn de and you will get the English version of the site as your first choice (usually). Forgive me for not printing the entire address but it was very long. Your itinerary is a bit chopped so I am not sure what "pass" you can truly get. Many of the passes are based on neighboring countries and are not always the cheapest way to go unless you are extensively using the rails. Since you have time, research your trains on the German site for choices and times. Several years back I used this site and (seat 61) and some local sites to travel from Southampton-London-Paris-Munich (day trips to Salzburg, Mittenwald), Prague, Warsaw, Vilnius, Vienna, Venice, Florence, Paris, London, Southampton. It took some work, but I found that no pass really worked for my itinerary nor was it cheaper than point to point. I booked most of my train tickets including sleepers once I got to the continent. Be advised, Europe train travel is no longer inexpensive especially with the dollar so weak against the Euro.

 

[cp]

I agree with all advices given, and I would like to add that Thomas Cook publishes an Amtrak-style complete timetable of all European trains, so you can see the entire rounting not just point-to-point schedule. I just bought one for myself, and it's very interesting.

 

[gyuri_ft]

Greetings fellow Amtrak travelers, My wife and I are planning a trip to Spain, France and The Netherlands this June/July. Naturally, we will want to do all of the internal travel by rail. I looked at the EuroRail site and apparently, you can't book this far in advance. Anyone know any different? Any tips on this trip are welcome. Best, Gene

Hello Gene,

Years ago the Railpases were a good value - not anymore. It would require to write a long and boring article, why it did happen, but this is the fact.

There is no universal way to travel through Europe - each region has it's own "specialities". The worst in the railpass thing is, the time (=days you can spend on rails) is extremely limited unless you buy the "top" railpass - and it is designed to be that way.

My advice: do not look for any reservation yet. Instead of starting to study railway timetables and fares, please look at your journay: what would you like to visit? Your list (ES, F, NL) is very extensive. Besides, there is also "B" or "DE" between NL and F (depending on your route) which you cannot avoid - and should not. Plan your route first. If you are done, you also should decide: is it OK for you to take local, fast and Intercity/Eurocity trains in France only, no Corail TEOZ, TGV? If yes, you can actually travel for up to two months in France for ca. 180 Euro with unlimited stops. This works if you have a fixed route and purchase the corresponding international ticket outside of France (in NL or B, for instance).

For NL probably you do not need any pass - the country is not too big - unless you want to visit everything there. Same applies to Beligium (B) which is between NL and France. Also - paradox - same applies to Germany, which is rather large but there are wonderful Laenderticket-s (daily passes valid on all local trains) for under 30 Euro (up to 5 people can use a single 30 Euro ticket!).

An other pradox situation is, often to see most of the West, you rather should go to East (Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary) and buy a CITY-STAR mini-group ticket. These CITY-STAR tickets make any railpass for Austria and Germany obsolete. CITY-STAR is like Laenderticket, but valid on a certain route (your choice). They are valid between 30 and 60 days, unlimited stopovers. They are r/t tickets - but cost usually less than a one-way and the more people travel (up to 5) the cheaper they are pro person.

For Spain: just buy point-to-point tickets locally, don't worry. Besides, you may find it out, sometimes the bus is a more convenient option in Spain than train. The tickets in Spain are reasonably priced.

Regarding RailEurope: just avoid them. In general, do not buy European (or I would say, Eurasian) train tickets overseas. Sometimes, even a ticket bought in an other (European) country can cost up to 3-4 times more than locally. Sometimes, it can be considerably less. For instance, Slovakian-bought train CITY-STAR tickets for Russia are famous to be cheap. You do not go to Russia, but you may enter Germany while en route from Netherlands to France. FYI: Slovakian-bought train CITY-STAR tickets for Germany are also a great bargain. It could be worth to buy, but maybe not - depending on your route.

Therefore: your sightseeing and list of places to visit is first. The train tickets should serve your destinations. By careful planing you also may discover, France alone is worth at least 3-4 weeks. Same applies to Germany or Spain. And while visiting Spain, I would also visit Portugal, they "belong" together.

 

[TransAtlantic]

I really must disagree about the railpasses. The system was confusing before, but now it has been simplified (although yes, it is more expensive than when the "Europass" was offered); for a long-distance trip on a premier train (TGV, ICE, etc.), even with a discount, it can still cost 100 dollars or more each way for distances such as Paris-Irun, Milan-Rome, etc. (even WITH the numerous discounts available, which always have restrictions on days/times/ages/number of passengers/etc.). As I said before, it is worth buying a ticket locally for shorter hops, but the railpasses still work out (epecially for Spain and France) to about 50-60 dollars/day, and for sleeper trains the discount can be significantly more. One need only pay a supplement for premium services (first class sleeper, private train, etc.). And to get the local discounts, one must find a ticket agent whose English is fluent enough (and whose knowledge of their own country's - or their neighboring country's - rail system is absolutely encyclopedic) that they could find all of the possible discounts for you.

You are correct on one point - a bus can be faster between points, especially in Spain - but I think the whole point of this website is that we love train travel and are trying to save it, not hand it off to bus companies!!

 

[TransAtlantic]

I am referring, by the way, to the Eurail Select pass - the whole "Eurailpass" is hugely expensive and unnecessary, unless one is travelling the entire continent and taking a train to a major destination every day.

And I would never advise buying tickets or making reservations overseas - you never know what can change by the time you arrive. But the rail pass remains a good value.

Rail Europe has some general information, that's why I suggested it; you can also try ricksteves.com - he's annoying, but has some good info, too.

And suggestions about the East are irrelevant, as the original poster was only interested in ES/FR/NL...

 

[gyuri_ft]

I really must disagree about the railpasses. The system was confusing before, but now it has been simplified (although yes, it is more expensive than when the "Europass" was offered); for a long-distance trip on a premier train (TGV, ICE, etc.), even with a discount, it can still cost 100 dollars or more each way for distances such as Paris-Irun, Milan-Rome, etc. (even WITH the numerous discounts available, which always have restrictions on days/times/ages/number of passengers/etc.). As I said before, it is worth buying a ticket locally for shorter hops, but the railpasses still work out (epecially for Spain and France) to about 50-60 dollars/day, and for sleeper trains the discount can be significantly more. One need only pay a supplement for premium services (first class sleeper, private train, etc.). And to get the local discounts, one must find a ticket agent whose English is fluent enough (and whose knowledge of their own country's - or their neighboring country's - rail system is absolutely encyclopedic) that they could find all of the possible discounts for you.You are correct on one point - a bus can be faster between points, especially in Spain - but I think the whole point of this website is that we love train travel and are trying to save it, not hand it off to bus companies!!

FYI:

1) a simple undiscounted TCV international ticket (valid on EC, IC, local trains but not on TGV and Corail Teoz) between Amsterdam and Hendaye (frontiere) is an earth-shattering amount of 139.80 Euro. This ticket can be bought in Europe only (for that price) and no advanced reservation is needed. The ticket is valid for 2 Months and unlimited stops. The routing is via Paris, Tours, Poitiers - cities someone must visit anyway. The biggest problem with Eurial is not just the inflated price, but also that you will run out of days too quickly. The unrestricted TCV tickets are valid for 60 days. If you are lucky to get a CST ticket, it has validity of 30 or 60 days. Going back to NL you can choose routing via Avignon and Lyon and pay 179.80 Euro for Hendaye-Amsterdam. You will have 2x60 days validity + unlimited days + unlimited stops. There (was) actually even decoverte sejour r/t discount for France of 15% on the round-trips (different route can be used).

IMHO a better choice is to use an unrestricted TCV ticket one way which follows a pretty meandering route - and make as much stops as possible and use a low-cost air carrier (http://www.vueling.com/EN/index.php comes in my mind) the other way. This will bring more - much more - rail for much less $$$ than anything Eurail can offer.

What seem to be an adequate(?) solution for me on the Eurail saide is the Select Saver Pass but it has max. 10 "railway days" within 60 days and costs $518 p/p. It is very easy to run out of 10 days for such an extended trip.

2) I did mention the "east" simply because on your way from NL to ES you cannot avoid either Belgium or Germany. And at that point it's maybe worth to consider a CST ticket and more time in Germany.

3) The whole ES is not in TCV system anymore, so you are pretty much restricted what and where to buy. As much as train fanatic I am, sometimes there is no other choice than bus if you want to reach your destination. Pardon my comment about the bus, but the rail network in Spain is less dense than, say, Germany. In 1983 we had great tickets covering all France bought in "East" for peanuts. But...despite our great tickets we had sometimes no other choice as hitchhicking because we "overstayed" in some villages sightseing local attractions and missed the last train that day. In Spain the situation could become similar or worse.

 

[jamesontheroad]

My experience is probably different to yours, but on the whole I would have to admit I would also avoid railpasses unless you want to be completely loose about your plans. If you have enough of an idea of what you want to see and where you want to go in advance, buying restricted advance purchase tickets makes more sense. It sounds to me that if you are doing three or four countries in one trip, then you'll be basing yourselves in each one in turn (rather than doing the backpacker thing and just going everywhere in one big trip). If this is the case, then being based in a big city will make trips out to other twns and regions easier. The Netherlands is so well served by train that it doesn't matter where you stay; for France you'll find that Paris is the best hub from which to explore the country, because virtually all TGV and long distance routes radiate from there.

For your travels you need to spend some time with these websites. Generally, all European trains open for booking and reservation three months before departure.

Seat61.com - written by an ex-British Rail employee, it's principally designed to help British travellers work out how to get from the UK to anywhere in Europe, rather than from one continental country to another. However the advice and recommendations about routing and trains is very useful.

Nederlandse Spoorwegen Dutch Railways

voyages-sncf.fr - the travel agency of SNCF (French railways). There's an English version, just scroll down the homepage and click on the Union Flag at the bottom left. The place to start when booking trips from France to anywhere in Europe, and to research your routes between NL, FR and ES. The sooner you book, and if you travel off peak, the better deals you'll get. The website will always advise you of the lowest priced ticket available when you search, but if you want to explore some of the current offers, you can have a poke around the (French only) part of the site which lists all the current train promos here

bahn.de - the website of Deutsche Bahn (German railways) but with a timetable search engine that covers just about every country you could want to go in Europe. To get the English version click on "Internat. Guests" in the red bar at the top right of the homepage.

The Thomas Cook European Railway timetable that was mentionned earlier is published four times a year. This one is valid until early June, then this one (pre-order only). If, like me, you love a good map, then they also publish a complete European map of passenger rail routes.

Happy travels,

*j*

 

[gyuri_ft]

My experience is probably different to yours, but on the whole I would have to admit I would also avoid railpasses unless you want to be completely loose about your plans. If you have enough of an idea of what you want to see and where you want to go in advance, buying restricted advance purchase tickets makes more sense. It sounds to me that if you are doing three or four countries in one trip, then you'll be basing yourselves in each one in turn (rather than doing the backpacker thing and just going everywhere in one big trip). If this is the case, then being based in a big city will make trips out to other twns and regions easier. The Netherlands is so well served by train that it doesn't matter where you stay; for France you'll find that Paris is the best hub from which to explore the country, because virtually all TGV and long distance routes radiate from there.
For your travels you need to spend some time with these websites. Generally, all European trains open for booking and reservation three months before departure.

Seat61.com - written by an ex-British Rail employee, it's principally designed to help British travellers work out how to get from the UK to anywhere in Europe, rather than from one continental country to another. However the advice and recommendations about routing and trains is very useful.

Nederlandse Spoorwegen Dutch Railways

voyages-sncf.fr - the travel agency of SNCF (French railways). There's an English version, just scroll down the homepage and click on the Union Flag at the bottom left. The place to start when booking trips from France to anywhere in Europe, and to research your routes between NL, FR and ES. The sooner you book, and if you travel off peak, the better deals you'll get. The website will always advise you of the lowest priced ticket available when you search, but if you want to explore some of the current offers, you can have a poke around the (French only) part of the site which lists all the current train promos here

bahn.de - the website of Deutsche Bahn (German railways) but with a timetable search engine that covers just about every country you could want to go in Europe. To get the English version click on "Internat. Guests" in the red bar at the top right of the homepage.

The Thomas Cook European Railway timetable that was mentionned earlier is published four times a year. This one is valid until early June, then this one (pre-order only). If, like me, you love a good map, then they also publish a complete European map of passenger rail routes.

Happy travels,

*j*

While the railways of France (SNCF) indeed "radiate" out of Paris, I would think maybe just use a smartly routed single long-distance ticket (like Amsterdam - Hendaye) which would meander through most of France? The issue is not just the very reasonable price (well under 200 Euro) but also that TGV or other premiere trains may not even stop at certain towns - so the traveller would be forced to use local trains anyway. Paris is a good starting point. We used also extensively Tours and Toulouse. Tours is simply a must and one should spend there at minimum a week(!), even that is barely enough. Tours is the anchor point for all Loire castles and there are plenty of them.

SNCF has an other web site, http://www.ter-sncf.com/index.asp devoted exclusively to regional and inter-regional travel. Good is, all TER-SNCF trains could be used with international ticket (TCV ticket) issued in Netherlands (or any other European country) without restrictions. Bad is, TER-SNCF web site is mostly in French - but the traveler does not need any advance reservation or ticket purchase (as said, he can buy the throgh ticket in Netherlands on the spot) - all traveler needs is to locate the schedule.

This is why is better to fix the route and the list of places to visit first, than look for the ticket. IMHO a very minimum plan for France is Paris - Tours - Poitiers - Avignon - Carcassonne - Toulouse. (Poitiers is often overlooked, but I lost the count, how many major romanesque churches are within the city. Avignon, Carcassonne - no comment.

There are some other great places (Strassbourg, Colmar, Orleans, Perigeux and so on, depending on interests). But for instance, if Strassbourg and Colmar is on the list - I would use different routing from Amsterdam than if heading straght to Paris.

Otherwise perhaps I am incorrect, but my imression is, maybe less places/countries to visit would be more?

 

[Guest]

As a previous poster mentioned, it seems these folks know exactly where they are going and frankly, some of the info being written is down right confusing. I have travelled extensively by rails in Europe and I just want the original poster to know it is not that mind boggling or difficult. A good continental web site like bahn de and a regional site is all you need. Keep it simple and it will be simple.

 

[gyuri_ft]

As a previous poster mentioned, it seems these folks know exactly where they are going and frankly, some of the info being written is down right confusing. I have travelled extensively by rails in Europe and I just want the original poster to know it is not that mind boggling or difficult. A good continental web site like bahn de and a regional site is all you need. Keep it simple and it will be simple.

I disagree respectfully with both statements.

1) Netherlands is not big but France and Spain is. I am not sure, the traveller did work all details out yet, what places to visit. For France, Nehterlands and countries in-between I can either tell how much a certain ticket will cost (no promise that every ticket can be priced that some trains are global-priced rather priced by usual way) or suggest a route to cover a good portion of France. I cannot do much for Spain because Spain did leave the agreement on common interational ticket tarif (TCV) about a year ago, so all trains in Spain are either "global-priced" with Internet-based reservation and bucket-pricing or the ticket needs to be bought locally.

2) It is simple to travel in Europe if you don't care how much you pay. To get a ticket with good pricing is mind-boggling and difficult. Pricing depends strongly also where you buy the ticket. You can easily pay 4-5 times more for the same service depending on your knowledge where and how to buy the ticket. And I am talking about regular trains, not even "global price" trains like Eurostar, Thalys or some Corail Teoz.

The global price trains I do mention above sometimes have a very questionable pricing based not just on buckets, but also on your country of residence you volunteerly provide, not knowing, it does matter. For instance, on Eurostar web site if you state, you live in the U.S. you will pay more for the same train on the same day than if you say you live in Israel or Iran. If you say you live in Switzerland - you will pay even less. This is never verified (we tried!), not even by credit card number you provide and is under some law pretty much illegal practice.

BTW: you also can reserve on-line and even buy Eurostar tickets from German Rail web site and there won't be any discrimination based on your country of origin. The Eurostar reservation web site was set up by the same fine folks - a company who handles the European railpasses for overseas visitors and also, from now on the European railpasses for Europeans themself. Their motto is: "milk the yank out of money". There are a lot of complains, mostly coming from European railfans because they took over Interrail recently and screwed it up mightly.

 

[Guest]

This website covers European train travel extensively and provides numerous links for just about every question.

www.goeurope.about.com/cs/transportation/tp/traintravel.htm

 

[gyuri_ft]

An other good source is this forum:

http://drehscheibe-online.ist-im-web.de/forum/list.php?30

While the default language is German, it is perfectly fine to ask in English. There are dozens of railfans and rail ticket experts visiting and debating with each other - everyone with his favorite territory. Numerous people know Spanish and French ticket tarif exact on Penny and many "hidden" tricks (not me exactly). Others know tricks related to railways of other countries. Just ask in English, someone will most likely drop by within few hours and help you to organize things. Be prepared to hear several opinions as there is probably no single solution.

 

[Guest]

I used google to translate that page, and (I think) locomotives were being called pumpkins...

The strange things computerized translation brings about...

 

[jamesontheroad]

I used google to translate that page, and (I think) locomotives were being called pumpkins...

Didn't we mention? Germany's next generation locomotives use a technology called the 'Cinderella Drive'. Unfortunately it has cut down the number of overnight trains...

*j*