Explanation for Bad Queues @ NYP & WAS

[AlanB]

I travel frequently through NYP. I think the best single improvement that can bemade to crowd control is proper maintenance of the escalators. The frequency

of out of order escalators is unacceptable.

Dick,

Amtrak is working on that. They've been taking one escalator at a time out of service to rebuild them. I'm actually not sure if they're rebuilding them or installing new ones, but regardless every time I've been in the station over the last several months one escalator has been OOS.

 

[AlanB]

PHL has its own kindergarten march though. They also refuse to use all available stairs to board a train. But they do send people down to platform before the train arrives. Actually, if they did not do that they'd break NEC schedules.

But for that reason, I'm sure that they wouldn't send people down early.

 

[afigg]

Thanks for the answers. Maybe I need a trip to NYP to explore more in detail. Anyone have a good map?
I think the more and more I hear issues at other stations, Philadelphia is about the best station out of the top 4 (NYP, WAS, PHL, and CHI).

Website with a handy floor plan for NYP which also shows where the platforms are (eastern end anyway) with respect to the boarding areas above. Shows where the escalators and elevators are, but not a detailed look at where they are on the platforms and how much space is taken up on the platforms by the stairs, elevators, and support pillars.

Of the four stations, PHL is the only one that was not subjected to being rebuilt or having part of its passenger space taken away in the 1960 to 1980s. PHL also has reasonably wide platforms, so there is room for people to wait and board the train after people get off the train. But as jis points out, at PHL they do the single entrance checkpoint/chokepoint for tickets before letting people down the escalator to the platform.

 

[jis]

Amtrak actually has the only through service through Penn Station (except the football specials, but leaving that aside for the moment), and for the through service trains given the platform situation it may be reasonable to have the dwell time that they have.

Then again, on the one hand they scream from rooftops about lack of capacity at Penn Station and then turn around and use Penn Station platforms as the place where apparently delay absorption padding is built into the dwell time. So I don't quite know what to make of their protestations of capacity problems during Commission Hours.

But in general both NJT and LIRR for their O/D trains that go out to West Side or Sunnyside are all drop and go or come in, pickup and go, and they seem to have very short dwell times on many of those trains. OTOH, with Amtrak's O/D trains they seem to go as leisurely as their through service trains if not even slower, with greater dwell times. I have never understood the logic of that.

I was actually amazed to see NJT, which is not exactly known for its swiftness, turn a late arriving Midtown Direct on track 2 in 12 minutes and send it out full of passengers after having unloaded it, re-staffed it and brake tested it. If there is a will there is a way. But what is lacking most of the time appears to be the will or the urgency about anything in the way these trains are operated.

 

[PerRock]

I'm not sure how well it would work over here, but something they do over in Europe which I think would help here in the states is to have predetermined train layout marking. Basically you arrive on the platform and a display (digital on the newer, paper 'poster' on the older stations) tells you what the make up of the train is. In Europe it's just 1st Class & 2nd Class, etc, but one could easily have other info on it such as destinations. That way when you get onto the platform you can read the sign (it could even be before you reach the platform) it would tell you where on the platform your car is, and you can head there. Something I notice that happens a lot at almost every Amtrak station is that the train arrives & everyone goes to the 1st open door they see, then after waiting in line get up to the door only to be told to walk down the train to another. The newer digital displays for this would allow Amtrak to change platforms as the usually do as well as consists.

peter

 

[AlanB]

I'm not sure how well it would work over here, but something they do over in Europe which I think would help here in the states is to have predetermined train layout marking. Basically you arrive on the platform and a display (digital on the newer, paper 'poster' on the older stations) tells you what the make up of the train is. In Europe it's just 1st Class & 2nd Class, etc, but one could easily have other info on it such as destinations. That way when you get onto the platform you can read the sign (it could even be before you reach the platform) it would tell you where on the platform your car is, and you can head there. Something I notice that happens a lot at almost every Amtrak station is that the train arrives & everyone goes to the 1st open door they see, then after waiting in line get up to the door only to be told to walk down the train to another. The newer digital displays for this would allow Amtrak to change platforms as the usually do as well as consists.
peter

Amtrak already has this on many of the NEC platforms. I don't believe that Boston South has them and NYP doesn't. But otherwise I believe all of the Acela server NEC stops have such signs which indicate where one should stand based upon the car one has booked.

 

[Bostonmike]

Here is an article from the Economist about a blogger who disagrees with boarding protocol at NYP and other large stations.

The article comment re ensuring people are on the right train is the key reason to me. I've seen redcaps put people on the wrong Acelas. North and south Acelas leave at the same time which doesn't help. NEC conductors at other stations repeatedly announce to boarding passengers "this is not NJT, METRNORTH" etc. clearly it's a problem.
But using two escalators for this function does seem obvious.

 

[Bus Nut]

I thought this comment reply to the OP's article was good:

New York Penn Station has lots of operational challenges, and none of them can be corrected until Madison Square Garden and its obstructive support pillars are removed from the equation, and a significant effort is conducted to rework the tracks and platforms to more effectively accommodate the current volume and mix of passengers. Even old Penn Station could not have effectively accommodated the current number of Jersey commuters, with the narrow, obstructed platforms on the NJT/Amtrak side of the station. Since this will require the politicians that control the planning process and purse strings to focus on infrastructure instead of glamorous new civic architecture, it will likely never happen.

Face it: this is a dust-up about NYP (not CHI), and NYP is well beyond any sort of sane capacity. I've been in Parisian train stations and the conditions are not really comparable. Think something like BOS (though double the size) with level boarding from waiting area to platforms along stub-end tracks. No surprises, no obstructed view, no obstructed way or equipment to break down. And it's not insanely overcrowded (although they have maxed out on track capacity at this point). So "why can't we do it like Europe" would have to circle back to "why aren't we using GCT"? Penn is a challenge and like the person I quoted said, fixing that mess is going to take metric ****tons of money and political will, which I haven't seen lately from NY or NJ. Maybe if some big political machers get tee'd about it and buy a few seats in the NJ and NY legislatures, otherwise, fuggedaboudit.

 

[Bus Nut]

Note that European stations have station maps that show you what trains stop at what platform and at exactly what time.

It seems that LIRR is pretty consistent with PM departures but other than that I don't believe they have anywhere near that accuracy. Sure some of it is a different culture, but a lot of it is just trying to squeeze too much into too little space. And too many things that can go wrong.

 

[Bus Nut]

I'm not sure how well it would work over here, but something they do over in Europe which I think would help here in the states is to have predetermined train layout marking. Basically you arrive on the platform and a display (digital on the newer, paper 'poster' on the older stations) tells you what the make up of the train is. In Europe it's just 1st Class & 2nd Class, etc, but one could easily have other info on it such as destinations. That way when you get onto the platform you can read the sign (it could even be before you reach the platform) it would tell you where on the platform your car is, and you can head there. Something I notice that happens a lot at almost every Amtrak station is that the train arrives & everyone goes to the 1st open door they see, then after waiting in line get up to the door only to be told to walk down the train to another. The newer digital displays for this would allow Amtrak to change platforms as the usually do as well as consists.
peter

Actually in Central Europe they post complete consist information and where each car in the train will be located. This is very helpful if you have a reserved seat.

Not sure what's different there as compared to here. Wish I knew! I just know that in North American transportation we deal with breakdowns and seasonal fluctuations and must adjust accordingly.

 

[amamba]

I'm not sure how well it would work over here, but something they do over in Europe which I think would help here in the states is to have predetermined train layout marking. Basically you arrive on the platform and a display (digital on the newer, paper 'poster' on the older stations) tells you what the make up of the train is. In Europe it's just 1st Class & 2nd Class, etc, but one could easily have other info on it such as destinations. That way when you get onto the platform you can read the sign (it could even be before you reach the platform) it would tell you where on the platform your car is, and you can head there. Something I notice that happens a lot at almost every Amtrak station is that the train arrives & everyone goes to the 1st open door they see, then after waiting in line get up to the door only to be told to walk down the train to another. The newer digital displays for this would allow Amtrak to change platforms as the usually do as well as consists.
peter

Amtrak already has this on many of the NEC platforms. I don't believe that Boston South has them and NYP doesn't. But otherwise I believe all of the Acela server NEC stops have such signs which indicate where one should stand based upon the car one has booked.

They have the letters up at PVD (like postion A, B, C, D, E etc) but not the fancier LED ones like in PHL that will say first class at either end of the platform.

At PVD you always have to ask at the ticket window ahead of time to knwo where to stand. It would be a nice improvement for them to add those to the PVD platform.

 

[njdon]

The ques at NY Penn, PHL, and DC are, to me, examples of poor customer service. The rationale used to justify the enormously uncomfortable, inefficient, and maddening process of boarding trains in those stations seem to support an assumption that Amtrak is out of touch with its customers and their feelings/needs. In all cases, with the possible exception of NY Penn where the platforms are indeed small, both loading and unloading can be done simultaneously. For example, in Philly they require lining up in a long que but allow you downstairs before the train arrives so there's debarking and boarding at the same time-so why the long que? Perhaps this has to do with old habits or bureacratic inertia?

 

[PerRock]

I'm not sure how well it would work over here, but something they do over in Europe which I think would help here in the states is to have predetermined train layout marking. Basically you arrive on the platform and a display (digital on the newer, paper 'poster' on the older stations) tells you what the make up of the train is. In Europe it's just 1st Class & 2nd Class, etc, but one could easily have other info on it such as destinations. That way when you get onto the platform you can read the sign (it could even be before you reach the platform) it would tell you where on the platform your car is, and you can head there. Something I notice that happens a lot at almost every Amtrak station is that the train arrives & everyone goes to the 1st open door they see, then after waiting in line get up to the door only to be told to walk down the train to another. The newer digital displays for this would allow Amtrak to change platforms as the usually do as well as consists.

peter

Amtrak already has this on many of the NEC platforms. I don't believe that Boston South has them and NYP doesn't. But otherwise I believe all of the Acela server NEC stops have such signs which indicate where one should stand based upon the car one has booked.

They have the letters up at PVD (like postion A, B, C, D, E etc) but not the fancier LED ones like in PHL that will say first class at either end of the platform.
At PVD you always have to ask at the ticket window ahead of time to knwo where to stand. It would be a nice improvement for them to add those to the PVD platform.

I don't travel the NEC that often, didn't know they started that. I know out here on the midwest everyone just goes to the door closest to the station building. Regardless of the announcements over the PA & the conductors shouting out directions, we still get a good number of the passengers who wait in line at the door only to be told to go down to the next one.

peter

 

[VentureForth]

Thanks for the answers. Maybe I need a trip to NYP to explore more in detail. Anyone have a good map?
I think the more and more I hear issues at other stations, Philadelphia is about the best station out of the top 4 (NYP, WAS, PHL, and CHI).

Website with a handy floor plan for NYP which also shows where the platforms are (eastern end anyway) with respect to the boarding areas above. Shows where the escalators and elevators are, but not a detailed look at where they are on the platforms and how much space is taken up on the platforms by the stairs, elevators, and support pillars.

Of the four stations, PHL is the only one that was not subjected to being rebuilt or having part of its passenger space taken away in the 1960 to 1980s. PHL also has reasonably wide platforms, so there is room for people to wait and board the train after people get off the train. But as jis points out, at PHL they do the single entrance checkpoint/chokepoint for tickets before letting people down the escalator to the platform.

This is the only country I've been in (ok - only been to a couple countries) where the train station platform maps are guarded as national military secrets.