Florida East Coast Proposes Passenger Service

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PRR 60

PRR 60

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Feb 18, 2003
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As an interesting follow up to the topic concerning freight railroads taking over passenger service, Florida East Coast Industries, the real estate arm of the FEC Railway, is proposing the construction and operation of 100% private passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando. From the press release:

Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (FECI), the owner of Florida’s premier passenger rail corridor, is developing a privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail service to connect South Florida and Orlando, which will be operational in 2014. By connecting the most visited city in the United States with South Florida’s business and vacation destinations, the passenger rail project, called All Aboard Florida, is designed to serve Florida’s growing number of business travelers, as well as families and tourists traveling for pleasure.
...Targeted to begin service in 2014, the approximately $1 billion project will operate on a regular schedule throughout the day transporting business and leisure passengers between South Florida and Orlando in approximately three hours.
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All Aboard Florida
 
:) :) :) WOW!!!

If this really happens, I can see a potential gathering in Florida in about 3 years.

BTW - the article speaks about the fact that 40 miles between Cocoa and Orlando would have to be added by FEC.
 
George Harris said:
FEC does not go to Orlando
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Ah, but the plan is to do so. Quoting from the All Aboard Florida website:

"•Where: The new route will feature passenger service along Florida East Coast Railway’s existing tracks from Miami to Cocoa and the creation of new tracks into Orlando. Eventually the system will be expanded to Tampa and Jacksonville.

When: 200 of 240 miles of Right of Way (ROW) are already in place and have been in service as an operating railroad for over a century, which allows for passenger service between South Florida and Orlando to be up and running in 2014."

The details are extremely skimpy, but it looks like they intend to build new east-west tracks from the FEC to Orlando. This could get very interesting.
 
One has to wonder if this project got wheels before or after the cancellation of Florida's HSR...

In either case, this will change things if it gets off the ground. The implications for Amtrak are obviously numerous.
 
Any guesses how fast the trains will reach and/or what class the new Cocoa-Orlando tracks will be built to? I've heard that most of the FEC is good for 90mph already.
 
This should be a very interesting 'experiment' of sorts. To seemingly state the obvious, success with a privately held FEC could mean that passenger rail in the United States is indeed turning that proverbial page into a new chapter.

Now, once it is up and running, they need to integrate into the National picture with something like through-ticketing. Buy a single ticket from, say, NYP to Orlando and have both your Amtrak and FEC fare on one document. E-ticketing should simplify that, and with Skoropowski involved, he would likely advocate something like this quite strongly.
 
Infographic on their website showing the planned route: http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/All-Aboard-Florida-Infographic.jpg

The implications for Amtrak in terms of their current Florida business is, in my initial reaction, positive because Amtrak only run 3 LD trains to Florida. The FEC is not going to be interested in running LD trains north of Florida. Figuring that they would allow Amtrak to operate over their tracks, would provide a faster and more populated Orlando to Miami, a JAX to Miami route for Amtrak to run the Silvers over. Most importantly, a FEC corridor service would provide a much bigger passenger base in Florida to draw from for east coast LD trains. The hit to Amtrak is that, if the FEC has the funding to do this, Amtrak won't be running a corridor service over the FEC from Miami to JAX.

Amtrak now has competition for intercity rail, although this may well be a special case because the FEC is a small operation that happens to have under-utilized good quality tracks.

The longer term political implications could be very interesting.
 
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One thing about the FEC is that it has more than a 'trainload' of at-grade crossings. I'd think this has been factored into the plans, but it is still something to consider. Then there is the building of the new line. How long would the review process take? And if it ended up in the courts... :eek:hboy:
 
Ulterior motives at work here folks. Gives them a better bargaining chip to deal with state, Amtrak.

I WISH it were true, and maybe the folks at FEC believe it to be. But you can bet your arse that the execs at FEC are doing this for several reasons, and will have already lined up the politicos for tax breaks, job creation credits, etc., etc. And that's great.

I truly, truly hope this comes to pass, but I'm not holding my breath.

Although Gene Skoropowski's hiring certainly adds fuel-to-the-fire.

Go FEC!
 
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After reading through the All Aboard Florida website, a question about rolling stock options has struck me.

What do you think the FEC would be interested in procuring for rail cars?

Would they possibly latch onto the soon to be announced Bi-Level car order and nab a fleet of CalCar II's? Or are there restrictions in Florida that would confine them to single-level service? What about the Talgo's in Wisconsin? Without having been through Florida since the 90's, I have no idea what the track configuration is, and if a Talgo trainset would be suitable there; are there enough twists and turns to make an active-tilt option useful?

The website informally leads to the suggestion that FEC would buy and/or lease brand new rolling stock. It is also mentioned that there will be a premium Business Class option on top of Coach. Without tax money being involved, there would be no Buy America clause imposed. Very interesting, and certainly worth debating!
 
I was thinking about that myself. Does Amtrak own the rights to the Viewliner Design, or could the FEC call up and place an order for some VL Coaches? Since the production line is up and running, that would eliminate some costs.
 
Blackwolf said:
After reading through the All Aboard Florida website, a question about rolling stock options has struck me.

What do you think the FEC would be interested in procuring for rail cars?

Would they possibly latch onto the soon to be announced Bi-Level car order and nab a fleet of CalCar II's? Or are there restrictions in Florida that would confine them to single-level service? What about the Talgo's in Wisconsin? Without having been through Florida since the 90's, I have no idea what the track configuration is, and if a Talgo trainset would be suitable there; are there enough twists and turns to make an active-tilt option useful?

The website informally leads to the suggestion that FEC would buy and/or lease brand new rolling stock. It is also mentioned that there will be a premium Business Class option on top of Coach. Without tax money being involved, there would be no Buy America clause imposed. Very interesting, and certainly worth debating!
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I can't really envision ANYthing besides true HSR rail working here. However, Gene did a great job in Cali without true HSR, but would it be enuff to secure enuff paying PAX to make it profitable? Obviously FEC is not doing this for "fun", they think they can make a go of it.

I'd bet if they are going the HSR route, they will be applying for all kinds of govt loans, grants, etc., and they SHOULD get them!

But it's hard for me to see HrSR rail racking up profits, and taking cars off the roads, people out of planes......
 
Anyone want to bet pro-privatization Rep. Mica is in on this? "Here in my district, we have private-sector railroads..."
 
The first thing I have to say about this is WOW just WOW if FEC RR pulls this off they will officially become my favorite RR :wub:

That being said I do not believe for a second that they are going to pay to upgrade their own tracks and add the leg to Orlando all on their own dime.

I bet Florida and the federal government will have to shell out 1 Billion to get the extra track and upgrades.

I can also see it happening, "connecting Orlando to Miami for half the cost of the Orlando-Tampa HSR sounds like a great deal." It will also make many republicans happy knowing this is a private company and their is no chance the state will have to pay for continuing service.

Oh, and the reason I am saying the current FEC tracks are not good enough is because of a bit of math. In their own site they are talking about 3 hours Orlando-Miami MattW said they have track capable of 90mph, but according to google maps its about 240 miles between the two via I-95 that means 80mph on average. With stops your going to need a lot of track that is rated for 110mph, and that is not going to be cheap.
 
Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.
 
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MattW said:
Any guesses how fast the trains will reach and/or what class the new Cocoa-Orlando tracks will be built to? I've heard that most of the FEC is good for 90mph already.
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If the timetable I saw is correct, the FEC has a maximum speed of 60 mph. That implies class 4 track, which is max 80 for passengers.
 
MikefromCrete said:
Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.
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On the All Aboard Florida website, they mention the possibility of using an 'existing ROW' from Cocoa to Orlando. I'm fairly certain that there isn't an active rail line between Cocoa and Orlando, so it made me wonder if they are looking into using part of the Route 528 ROW. (Wouldn't that be something provided by government?)

This also brings up the question: "Where will the Orlando train station be located?" My guess is at the airport and not downtown. This would generate more riders, IMHO, and I believe that in anticipation of HSR, some planning and work has already gone into providing for a station at MCO.

I just did the Orlando Amtrak to MCO taxi ride. It was close to $40.00 with tip. Not cheap, but a Thruway connection could be provided.
 
MikefromCrete said:
Well, this is very interesting. The timetable seems very aggressive, but I sincerely doubt if obtaining the right of way and construction of the new 40-miles of track could be accomplished in two years, not to mention the acquisition of rolling stock. Gene Skoropowski's involvement is very promising. They claim no government money will be involved, but the cost of this venture will be in the billions. Maybe they have some investors from Europe who are savvy to rail travel's potential. I wish them a lot of luck, it would certainly be a game changer.
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It depends on what real estate FECI owns where. There is no reason that 40 miles of track should cost billions of dollars if somehow the land for putting it on is available for cheap.

Anyway at present it is equivalent to a tier II feasibility study. More real numbers will be known when that comes to a conclusion. They can claim that they met the 2014 date if they can start Miami - Cocoa service by 2014, which of course they and everyone else knows they can. Worst case they will have to pick up a string of NJT Comet IV or Vs as a starter and a couple of spare diesels from their own roster and equip them for HEP. I would be truly surprised if they can actually build out to Orlando and introduce service by 2014 on the Cocoa - Orlando leg. but I have seen such things done in India, so it is not physically impossible.

Cocoa is the logical point to take off from the FEC main towards Orlando. That is where they can get onto the median of Beachline Expressway, which has the space along most of its ROW for a double track railroad down the middle or on one side of the highway. There are also reasonable highway rights of way available to the the line to either Orlando Downtown or Lake Buena Vista/Disney are or both, perhaps even with a stop at or close to MCO.

BTW, this plan is not inconsistent with a parallel plan to runa section of one of the Silvers down FEC. Indeed, it reduces the net cost that that project would have to bear due to cost sharing on stations south of Cocoa/Rockledge inclusive. Only additional stations needed for it would be the four or five north of Cocoa.

This is a really exciting development. Let us see what comes out of the due diligence and how the business plan looks when they have real number to play with.
 
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jis said:
BTW, this plan is not inconsistent with a parallel plan to runa section of one of the Silvers down FEC. Indeed, it reduces the net cost that that project would have to bear due to cost sharing on stations south of Cocoa/Rockledge inclusive. Only additional stations needed for it would be the four or five north of Cocoa.
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And the hiring of Skoropowski would seem to indicate that FEC wants to 'play nice.'

Also the linked article from PRR60 indicates that the FEC has not decided

...what firm will operate the trains...
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Hmmmm....
 
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