Flying by LCC, ULCC and Charter

[BCL]

While the nickel and dining of everything on Spirit kind of sucked, it did seem to serve a purpose. I've flown Spirit round-trip once, and the experience was actually quite good. Because the carry-on fee was less than the check-in fee there were very few people carrying on so there was little time spent dealing with anyone trying to find an overhead bin with space. Also they heavily enforce that personal items (which don't have a carry on tag) don't go in overheads, and it was politely stated. We pushed out of the gate early because there was almost no fuss on the ground. Definitely no jetway check-ins which always seems to slow things down.

I did have an issue with their boarding pass printing charge, although I didn't really test it out. I'm not sure if they would have charged me for printing at the terminal kiosk with their alleged $10 per boarding pass fee, or if that was only if I asked a human to do it. Other than that, we paid $10 more each for The Really Big Seat and it was fine.

 

[basketmaker]

My first flight on Frontier from Nashville for house hunting (job transfer) in Denver. I knew it was a good sign as I was seated in 2A and we departed from gate A2. And the critter adorning the tail was Carl the Coyote and my name is Karl. That was in 2006 and I'm not leaving Denver. Traveled Frontier several times after that for business meetings and always enjoyed the flights.

But now that Frontier and many other carriers have move to non-reclining seats I will avoid air travel unless it is an emergency. Seat pitch is not much of a concern for me as I am of small stature. Not just the seats but dealing with TSA is an utter PIA!

What I dislike the most is the "silence". People sit there like they are in class and never say a word. I have met so many interesting and diverse people on Amtrak. Though watching the news these days some folks are speaking and screaming and fighting and on and on! Having been a flight attendant (steward/stewardess back then) years ago never seen such BS. I have sympathy for today flight attendants.

 

[adamj023]

Personally I would not fly on Spirit or Frontier in their current state. Poor customer service, poor seats and value and a non appealing customer experience. Frontier initially had an excellent competitor against the legacies out in Denver but the downgrade to ULCC model was horrible. Spirit’s slapping on a yellow can of paint and claiming barebones pricing is a race to the bottom. Frontier’s brand used to have good service levels while Spirit started with the ULCC model from the outright and was never known to be good. The saving grace here is that Frontier is the majority shareholder but its doubtful the airline will be any better for customers. Frontier’s brand is superior as well as the livery.

 

[VentureForth]

Personally I would not fly on Spirit or Frontier in their current state. Poor customer service, poor seats and value and a non appealing customer experience. Frontier initially had an excellent competitor against the legacies out in Denver but the downgrade to ULCC model was horrible. Spirit’s slapping on a yellow can of paint and claiming barebones pricing is a race to the bottom. Frontier’s brand used to have good service levels while Spirit started with the ULCC model from the outright and was never known to be good. The saving grace here is that Frontier is the majority shareholder but its doubtful the airline will be any better for customers. Frontier’s brand is superior as well as the livery.

If there wasn't a market for them, they wouldn't exist.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

Only ever flew Sprit once ORD - BOS and the flight wasn't bad. Seats were tight but OK. The flight crew seemed pretty professional. The nickel and diming reserving a flight is annoying but I can see the advantages of paying for what you want and no more.

The references to "treetop airlines" - I flew them as their Texas International brand, the "milk run" that left Dallas Love Field and stopped at seemingly every cow pasture in West Texas before arriving at Clovis Airport where I got off. Convair 600 turboprops with Rolls Royce engines, not bad little planes for the time.

 

[MARC Rider]

The nickel and diming reserving a flight is annoying but I can see the advantages of paying for what you want and no more.

I don't see any advantages with the extreme to which they go. I think it's classic "bait and switch" allowing them to advertise a very low fare, but comparing it to competitors that provide more service. I could see charging extra for food and drink (especially on shorter flights) and charging extra for larger seats and more legroom, but the basic service should have some mandated minimum.

By the way, I don't think that low airline fares are a good public policy to encourage, as it induces more people to fly, thus resulting in more flights and more greenhouse gas emissions.

 

[Exvalley]

I don't see any advantages with the extreme to which they go. I think it's classic "bait and switch" allowing them to advertise a very low fare, but comparing it to competitors that provide more service.

I have priced a few ULCC fares, and by the time I add some of their "options", the price is not that different than what the legacy carriers are charging.

I don't mind some aspects being unbundled for a fee - such as choosing your own seat in advance. But some of the fees are just absurd. (e.g. printing a boarding pass at an airport kiosk.) In my opinion, it's absurd to charge extra for anything more than a briefcase.

The one thing ULCCs do right is incentivizing a checked bag rather than carrying it onboard. I am extremely tired of the effort it takes to deal with full overhead bins on the legacy carriers - as well as the jockeying for position at the gate in the hope that space will still be available.

 

[MARC Rider]

I don't mind some aspects being unbundled for a fee - such as choosing your own seat in advance. But some of the fees are just absurd. (e.g. printing a boarding pass at an airport kiosk.) In my opinion, it's absurd to charge extra for anything more than a briefcase.

The one thing ULCCs do right is incentivizing a checked bag rather than carrying it onboard. I am extremely tired of the effort it takes to deal with full overhead bins on the legacy carriers - as well as the jockeying for position at the gate in the hope that space will still be available.

I agree. People flying the kinds of distances involved with air travel are mostly not taking day trips. Thus, the vast majority of airline passengers will be carrying baggage, and some accommodation for that baggage should be included in the fare. There's no need to "incentivize" checked baggage, it should be included in all fares and the airlines should strictly enforce carry-on limits, which should be on the lines of a coat, a briefcase or day pack, and maybe a ladies' purse. Also, medical equipment (e.g. CPAP), car seats, etc. Otherwise, it should all go in the hold.

 

[adamj023]

I have seen images of full Spirit and Frontier planes and its mind boggling to me how people don’t seem to understand the airline industry and wind up on these flights. In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency. I am thankful that plenty of good airlines are competing for business each and every day. What is anticompetitive with the merger is that in slot restricted markets, this merger will harm competition and there should be a forced divestiture of these markets. In non slot restricted areas, the combined company will not be hurting anyone else. We will see if the airlines are required to make any concessions before the merger is allowed.

Unlike Southwest which only has fares in its own systems and has to be booked with Southwest, Spirit and Frontier are in the reservation systems. It is crazy that flights are coming in at higher prices to begin with and they charge more money for fees than other airlines as well which also will likely be needed as per a test search at airports by me.

As far as carry on bags go, mainline carriers do quite well on this as some have increased bin space. Also they use a priority boarding model instead of a carry on bag fee. You can pay extra for priority boarding so you can get to board quicker as well as not have to track down bin space. There is no need for an extra carry on bag fee, unless of course you downgrade to basic economy level fares on some airlines which don’t include it.

 

[jebr]

I have seen images of full Spirit and Frontier planes and its mind boggling to me how people don’t seem to understand the airline industry and wind up on these flights. In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency. I am thankful that plenty of good airlines are competing for business each and every day.
[...]
It is crazy that flights are coming in at higher prices to begin with and they charge more money for fees than other airlines as well which also will likely be needed as per a test search at airports by me.

Why do you assume that all the people on these flights "don't seem to understand the airline industry?" I've flown on Spirit and Frontier a number of times, always when either cheaper or more convenient than the legacies (often both,) and based on what I've seen most people seem to at least understand that a full-sized carry on is going to cost money. I've rarely seen there be an issue at the gate with it - most people instead just bring on a smaller item (backpacks probably the most common choice.)

They also often charge a lot more for a connecting itinerary. Unless you're checking on routes where they're a non-stop option, you're getting a skewed sample. Spirit and Frontier focus heavily on point-to-point traffic (although they do allow connections) and price accordingly - typically a connecting itinerary is more expensive than the direct option, unlike the legacies which will often discount a connecting itinerary.

 

[Ryan]

In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency.

That's a bold declarative statement with absolutely no proof.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Who are we including when we say ULCC's "work effectively?" Do ULCC's work effectively for tall people? How about elderly passengers, those who travel infrequently, and those that need more assistance? Do ULCC's work well for people who end up stranded? The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.

 

[Exvalley]

The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.

Spirit was 3rd for on time performance in 2020. Frontier was 6th. They were both ahead of United, American and JetBlue.

That said, because they don't embrace the hub system like legacy carriers do, a cancelled flight can lead to bigger problems. But this is the trade-off that comes with the cheaper airfare, and many people are more than willing to make that trade-off.

ULCCs are a choice in the marketplace, and I fail to see why choice is a bad thing. I just wish that there would be a little more transparency with their fees - at least when comparison shopping on sites like Expedia.

 

[jis]

Who are we including when we say ULCC's "work effectively?" Do ULCC's work effectively for tall people? How about elderly passengers, those who travel infrequently, and those that need more assistance? Do ULCC's work well for people who end up stranded? The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.

AFAICT it mostly works for the ULCCs and not so much for anyone else in my view. But then who am I to judge what overwhelming numbers of people wish to spend their money on?

 

[Ryan]

The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.

Spirit was 3rd for on time performance in 2020. Frontier was 6th. They were both ahead of United, American and JetBlue.

Chris' concern what about what happens when there are delays.

Your rebuttal about how often that happens completely misses the mark.

 

[Exvalley]

Chris' concern what about what happens when there are delays.

Your rebuttal about how often that happens completely misses the mark.

If one is concerned with the consequences of a delay, it makes perfect sense to assess the overall likelihood of a delay. Put another way, I would rather fly an airline that is late 1% of the time, but is horrible at dealing with delays, than an airline that is late 75% of the time but is better at communicating, etc. Forgive me for thinking that the connection was obvious.

That said, if there is a delay, the customer is not actually left to "fend for themselves with little or no assistance." The definition of a delay means that the passenger will arrive - just later than they hoped. The concern may be that, during the period of the delay, ULCCs are not good at communicating, rebooking, etc. As I said earlier, that is what you get for the cheaper airfare - and many people are willing to make that trade. Who I am to judge these people? The free market is at work, and the truth is that ULCCs allow some people to fly who may not be able to afford a trip otherwise. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion - as long as there is sufficient transparency.

 

[Ryan]

If one is concerned with the consequences of a delay, it makes perfect sense to assess the overall likelihood of a delay. Put another way, I would rather fly an airline that is late 1% of the time, but is horrible at dealing with delays, than an airline that is late 75% of the time but is better at communicating, etc. Forgive me for thinking that the connection was obvious

That's a ridiculously contrived example that bears no connection to reality.

Here in the real world, I'd much rather patronize a service that provides decent customer service than one that says "not my problem". Different folks will have different priorities.

If you actually use 2021 data, Spirit and Frontier drop to 5th and 6th, so your point continues to flounder.

 

[Exvalley]

Here in the real world, I'd much rather patronize a service that provides decent customer service than one that says "not my problem". Different folks will have different priorities.

Oh, you and I agree. I prefer to fly legacy carriers. But you and I come from a place of privilege where we can afford to pay more for added conveniences. Not everyone comes from the place that we do, and they deserve a choice too.

If you actually use 2021 data, Spirit and Frontier drop to 5th and 6th, so your point continues to flounder.

I used official government data when I gave the rankings. The latest year reported is 2020. The government may agree with your independent source for 2021 - or may not. It's certainly odd that your source only used data from between June 1 and December 20.

 

[Ryan]

Oh, you and I agree. I prefer to fly legacy carriers. But you and I come from a place of privilege where we can afford to pay more for added conveniences. Not everyone comes from the place that we do, and they deserve a choice too.

I used official government data when I gave the rankings. The latest year reported is 2020. The government may agree with your independent source for 2021 - or may not. It's certainly odd that your source only used data from between June 1 and December 20.

Not odd when you consider that it was published on 29 December. If you want to stick to government data, it's available through November of 2021 and a cursory review shows the data I provided above to be accurate.

If only you were in the habit of providing citations, then we could be sure of what you're talking about.

Edit to add:
To save time in checking the data, I built a little table. Feel free to audit for mistakes (sorry I didn't take the time to provide the bespoke handwritten tables in the style of @niemi24s):

 

[Exvalley]

Not odd when you consider that it was published on 29 December.

What’s odd is that a chart for all of 2021 used data that only started on June 1.

 

[Ryan]

What’s odd is that a chart for all of 2021 used data that only started on June 1.

It doesn't purport to be a chart for "all of 2021". It's odd that you would make that up. I included the data all the way back to 2020 to remain contiguous with your claimed data set (for which you still have not provided a reference). The report explicitly states when the data is from, as you no doubt read as you continue to pick at it (despite being in-family with the government data also provided above).

Circling this entertaining detour back on topic, it's obvious that your contrived example isn't borne out by data here in the real world, be it 2020, some of 2021, or all of 2021. Chris' point on how poorly these carriers react to delays stands and isn't mitigated by theoretical head and shoulders performance improvements by said carriers. Perhaps the merger will cause them to step up their game. Perhaps not, it will be interesting to follow.

 

[Exvalley]

It doesn't purport to be a chart for "all of 2021"

It’s a chart that is labeled “2021 On Time Performance.” And yet it omits several months worth of data. An odd source to cite, for sure.

Getting back to the topic at hand, do you take issue with my contention that it is a good thing that people with less privilege have travel options by trading some degree of convenience for price?

 

[VentureForth]

Is all about managing expectations like we do on Amtrak.

Though perhaps not as bad, the mainline carriers have had plenty of publicity regarding poor customer service when things go wrong.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think having the ULCCs is good, even if you never fly on them. The legacies would not be offering as cheap of flights as they do without the pressure of the ULCCs.

I think we're all flying ULCC's these days. Take a look at a prospectus or join an earnings call to see what I mean. Our fares seem cheap until you buy back all the things you used to get for free. What they call First Class today is not that different from the service I received in Legacy Coach when I first started flying.

 

[adamj023]

I think we're all flying ULCC's these days. Take a look at a prospectus or join an earnings call to see what I mean. Our fares seem cheap until you buy back all the things you used to get for free. What they call First Class today is not that different from the service I received in Legacy Coach when I first started flying.

The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.