Flying by LCC, ULCC and Charter

[adamj023]

United and American's international flights out of O'Hare depart from their regular terminals (they only arrive at Terminal 5)... although I can't imagine that many people would fly Southwest and transfer to one of those two for an international flight out of O'Hare, versus just flying the same U.S.-based airline all the way from their point of origin.

Most international flights are out of T5 for arrivals and departures at Ohare. You aren’t going to want to connect to an AA or United flight for an international departure in most cases but it is still doable by changing terminals.

Spirit has some fares under $20 for some longer domestic flights. But with fees and restrictions added, the base fares of an LCC like Southwest or the regular economy fares of the legacy airlines come out to be better overall deals than the ULCC. The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Most international flights are out of T5 for arrivals and departures at Ohare. You aren’t going to want to connect to an AA or United flight for an international departure in most cases but it is still doable by changing terminals.

Spirit has some fares under $20 for some longer domestic flights. But with fees and restrictions added, the base fares of an LCC like Southwest or the regular economy fares of the legacy airlines come out to be better overall deals than the ULCC. The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.

Since you seem to have done comparisons, can you show us side-by-side comparisons (preferably screen shots) of a flight on Spirit vs a flight on a legacy airline?
Let's say one where the buyer will have one carry on and one checked bag.

 

[adamj023]

Do it yourself based on your own airport routes before you book a ticket. Understand the differences between airlines and know what you are getting into. Contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent and whether airlines abide by it and so forth also play a part. The whole industry is led by collusion and by a small amount of players rather than being real competition.

 

[jebr]

The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.

Southwest is the only major US-based carrier that includes a checked bag with all fares. All of the other major US airlines charge for a checked bag for a domestic US itinerary by default. United and JetBlue don't even allow a full-sized carry on with their basic economy fare! If you hate the ULCCs, never buy a United basic economy fare - it's worse than even an ULCC ticket as you can't even check in online and get a boarding pass or pay to carry-on a full sized bag.

My preferred way to travel is with a personal item plus a checked bag - even if I only need the size/weight of a standard carry-on, I prefer to check it as there's restrictions on what you can bring through airport security that hamper what I'd like to bring on a trip. I prefer to shave with a safety razor, but the blades aren't allowed through security so I either need to check my bag, find a safety razor blade at my destination, or use a disposable razor when traveling with just carry-ons. I also like to bring beers and/or hard ciders home with me from a trip, which also can't be brought through security.

For me, the "free carry-on bag" included with the major airlines is a bit annoying when I have to pay for a checked bag. If the cost is still less after paying for a checked bag on the ULCCs versus the majors with their "free" carry-on, I'd seriously consider doing the ULCC because the cost I'm paying includes the things I actually want, instead of having to force myself to have my travel style fit what's included with my major airline fare.

 

[jebr]

interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent

All airlines must follow DOT rules. That doesn't change based on the airline.

As for interline/rule 240, I've found that, at least for American, despite theoretically having these agreements they basically refuse to use them for standard passengers. Just last week I had a missed connection due to a mechanical delay, and despite there being two direct flights home with tickets available on Delta to replace the direct flight I missed on American (and no other direct options until the next morning,) American refused to book me on that and instead sent me on a roundabout itinerary through Charlotte getting me home 7 hours later. Even that took some work, as they defaulted me to just going on the direct American flight the next morning and getting home nearly 24 hours later. Seems little better than ULCC service to me!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Do it yourself based on your own airport routes before you book a ticket. Understand the differences between airlines and know what you are getting into. Contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent and whether airlines abide by it and so forth also play a part. The whole industry is led by collusion and by a small amount of players rather than being real competition.

Deflecting yet again. You are the one that is saying ULCC's cost more than legacy airlines when you factor in all the fees. You need to back up your claims - with real data. I know from a recent experience that the ULCC my family took recently was cheaper than the major airlines because my daughter compared all costs between the two before booking the ULCC.
And what the heck does "contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules", etc have to do with comparing the cost between two flights?

 

[jebr]

I'm bored, so I did a quick comparison. Looks like Spirit's cheaper than Delta on this trip for what I care about! I went non-stop only because there was a Frontier fare appearing that involved some weird layovers on the way back, and I wanted to give the legacies a shot at winning. United and American were $400+ and required a connection; Southwest is $231 there and $78 back for the cheapest options and also requires a connection. The Delta flight also requires a red-eye or early morning (6:30 AM) flight home to get that $278 price (later options are $100+ more,) where the Spirit flight leaves at 3 PM - much nicer if I want to have a full last night in Vegas and maybe even do a little bit the morning of departure.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If you hate the ULCCs, never buy a United basic economy fare - it's worse than even an ULCC ticket as you can't even check in online and get a boarding pass or pay to carry-on a full sized bag.

You are the one that is saying ULCC's cost more than legacy airlines when you factor in all the fees. You need to back up your claims - with real data.

How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.

Sorry, I'm probably not using the right words....I'm not a frequent flier and don't know much about airline terminology.

 

[jis]

Well originally adam's comments were about Spirit and Frontier, so it is safe to assume he believes those to be ULCCs I suppose.

 

[jebr]

How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.

For me, within the US context "legacy" is American, United, and Delta. At points I played a bit loose with the term and included Southwest and JetBlue (though I tried to caveat those as "LCCs" - low cost carriers.) ULCCs are basically any of them that have fees for basically everything except a seat and a backpack - in this context it'd be Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country (live in MSP so Sun Country has a big presence here.) Not particularly precise, and I know there's other airlines out there, but that's how it's defined for me.

 

[adamj023]

Legacy carrier is a well established term in the airline industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier
There are five carriers which meet this definition left. Alaska, Hawaiian, Delta, American Airlines and United airlines.

American apparently reinstated interline with Delta in 2018. Don’t know if they still have them as a partner. American Airlines will treat customers differently based on ticket class and status so if they would book on Delta for someone, it likely will be for customers on high ticket classes and/or loyalty status.

 

[HenryK]

I thought this was a rail forum, but what do I know.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I thought this was a rail forum, but what do I know.

We do have this non-rail forum where off topic posts about airlines get moved to when they take over an Amtrak forum thread.

 

[Ryan]

 

[Exvalley]

ULCC’s have higher bag fees and lower weight allowed on them

I am definitely annoyed that Allegiant, Spirit and Frontier have dropped their weight limit from 50 pounds to 40 pounds for checked bags. Anything over 40 pounds incurs an extra fee.

 

[Seaboard92]

Is American an LCC or ULCC airline? Because they've had another incident and we all know unruly passengers only fly ULCC's (per someone here).

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/13/us/american-airlines-flight-diverted-kansas-city/index.html

That is something people at the airline debate on a regular basis. I would argue we are a legacy carrier that wants to think it is a LCC or ULCC. I would say that is one of our biggest problems with our service. I can always tell when I'm getting the usual NK or F9 passengers though. As when I bring the drink cart around they start reaching for their wallet.

Arrival delays and departure delays are very hard to compare. There are many ways an airline needs to or actually wants to game the system.
First arrival delays
1. How the crews are paid. Does crew get paid on scheduled time, actual time or better of scheduled or actual time?
2. If crew has a series of trip during a duty tour, then all flight schedules for that sequence may be unrealistically low to keep the crew under the maximum 8-hour scheduled time domestically. Crew can fly over but has to take a longer off duty than if under 8 hours actual. International is different.
4. Some airlines pay based on mileage so they can make schedule longer to get a better OTP for that flight.
5. Actual flying time is what is counted by the FAA.
Departure delays
1. How tight the turn from an arrival flight can make it impossible. Had a flight that for 2 months could never make an on-time departure even when most of time inbound aircraft arrived at least on time.
2. Shortage of gates so outbound could not get to gate with enough time.
3. Shared gates with another airline then 1 & 2 can apply

Question on No. 1: Which airlines are getting paid on this? I only get paid for when the door is closed. And actually I really don't get paid for work technically unless I break my block guarantee as I'll get 75 hours even if I don't work it. But once I hit that 75 I get my full credit which is the scheduled time plus whatever delays we might have. I've only hit my Block Once since May. I came close last month, and I'm getting close this month. I could hit it every month if I didn't believe in commuting back to Russia.

2. Duty day for us is 16 hours and can be extended to 17 hours in IROPS. I don't believe there is any actual physical flight limitation. I don't know how these Ultra Long Range Flights work on that though because my aircraft couldn't do something like that.

4. Who pays on mileage. We generally take the most direct route possible. I can only recall one super weird one which was CLT-PRV where we went out over Dayton because NY Airspace was clogged.

As far as departure delays.

1. Sounds like you must be flying out of Columbus, GA they can't manage a first flight out in a day on time. You really have to ride that station to get them to push you on time. These tight turns really aren't a super good thing. I get utilizing the aircraft is the priority and the more hours its in the air the more money you are making. But you are also putting yourself at a higher risk of missed connections and delays. That and your crew quality of life isn't really the greatest because they do need to eat at sometime. One pilot will usually go in and get food for everyone because one is allowed to be off the aircraft for boarding/deplaning and that's the only way we get food. And that's only if you have a nice pilot. I wouldn't be surprised if surly crews are partially due to this.

2. I've never understood this one. In Charlotte we might have five gates open that fit our aircraft type but we can't use them because we have to wait for our initial one to open up. I actually prefer the system they have in LHR where everyone waits in one large waiting room for the gate to be announced then you have a boarding lounge at your actual gate. This is a much more efficient system in my opinion. But to do that you would have to radically redesign almost all US Airports which would end up costing too much to do anything. The other issue is our outstations tend to only have one ground crew and if they are busy you will wait. But that's a staffing issue that could be resolved.

3. I really can only think about this in European airports because you don't see much of this in the USA. Charlotte airport is served by these airlines. American, Contour, Delta, Frontier, JetBlue, Lufthansa, Southwest, Spirit, United, and Volaris. And of those all of those use A Concourse only with the exception of American who uses every concourse, Lufthansa & Volaris which are only on D concourse. So you have Seven Airlines competing for 16 gates. While AA has access to over a hundred gates.

 

[VentureForth]

Wife's friend flew in to visit us from Dallas on Spirit last week. She spent $50 ROUND TRIP. She didn't like her seat so I told her about the big seat upgrade for her trip back. So she spent an extra $50 for her return today. She loved it. Didn't need any of the extra crap. Drinks on the plane were same price as in the terminal. I hope "Frontier Spirit" keeps the big seats!

 

[adamj023]

I am not interested in getting the absolute lowest priced fare even if you compare the actual cost including fees incurred and I never would buy a basic economy ticket on airlines either. With that said, all US domestic airlines seem to have had issues at one point or another. Generally speaking, domestic airlines usually match competitors airfares on routes with the exception of the ULCC’s which can come out as cheaper before the added fees of which some can be avoided and restrictions, The LCC’s often include more value into the ticket cost without added fees.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

For me, within the US context "legacy" is American, United, and Delta. At points I played a bit loose with the term and included Southwest and JetBlue (though I tried to caveat those as "LCCs" - low cost carriers.) ULCCs are basically any of them that have fees for basically everything except a seat and a backpack - in this context it'd be Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country (live in MSP so Sun Country has a big presence here.) Not particularly precise, and I know there's other airlines out there, but that's how it's defined for me.

More than a decade ago legacy airlines began adopting LCC business practices. They renegotiated labor contracts, unbundled services, and changed fee structures. As a consequence nearly every airline is selling U/LCC style tickets of one form or another including American, United, and Delta. The closest match to legacy coach is being sold by Southwest, the original LCC. That was the point after which the "legacy" airline died as an active concept for me.

 

[adamj023]

More than a decade ago legacy airlines began adopting LCC business practices. They renegotiated labor contracts, unbundled services, and changed fee structures. As a consequence nearly every airline is selling U/LCC style tickets of one form or another including American, United, and Delta. The closest match to legacy coach is being sold by Southwest, the original LCC. That was the point after which the "legacy" airline died as an active concept for me.

Some LCC carriers include the most features like free bags and no change fee in their base fares so I wound agree in that sense. The legacy have ways to save on fees but it is driven by loyalty programs. Each has its own benefits and drawbacks. Legacies have more fare options and loyalty offerings. Southwest has three fare classes I believe. Legacies code the flights under multiple fare codes with different perimeters and guidelines on the differing ticket classes. I do believe LCC carriers are good alternatives for some people while others benefit more from legacy carriers. The ULCC I believe only benefits a small minority of customers and is more deceitful in their business practices. JetBlue was also considered a LCC but it seems to be going more in the legacy direction due to its alliance with AA.

To me, the basic economy fares are just too restrictive for travel. Even if it comes to less money with your requirements in terms of actual fees charged and fees and what you think you need, if there are any necessary changes due to your own issues or related to the airline such as a flight delayed or cancelled and you want to change to another flight, a basic economy ticket is going to mean lower priority and more hassle and inconvenience and more risk of losing the entire fare you paid.

 

[jis]

To a large extent the environment in which an airline is operating dictates which kind of service will succeed.

For example in an extremely price sensitive environment like India, an ULCC (IndiGo) is by far the largest airline serving most stations with the largest number of flights. The one real legacy carrier (Air India) for all practical purposes went out of business with huge debts and finally the government ate most of its debt and sold it off back to its previous private owner. There were other full service carriers that came and went bankrupt (Kingfisher, Jet) and there are current ones that are yet to become profitable. But the like of IndiaGo and such carry on. Incidentally there is an ULCC that is on the verge of bakruptcy too (Spice Jet). So all in all the core take away is that in a price sensitive environment unsurprisingly the cheapest provider tends to win, full service be damned. But to survive, basic service must be provided reliably.

 

[adamj023]

To a large extent the environment in which an airline is operating dictates which kind of service will succeed.

For example in an extremely price sensitive environment like India, an ULCC (IndiGo) is by far the largest airline serving most stations with the largest number of flights. The one real legacy carrier (Air India) for all practical purposes went out of business with huge debts and finally the government ate most of its debt and sold it off back to its previous private owner. There were other full service carriers that came and went bankrupt (Kingfisher, Jet) and there are current ones that are yet to become profitable. But the like of IndiaGo and such carry on. Incidentally there is an ULCC that is on the verge of bakruptcy too (Spice Jet). So all in all the core take away is that in a price sensitive environment unsurprisingly the cheapest provider tends to win, full service be damned. But to survive, basic service must be provided reliably.

Every country has a different market and my focus was on domestic USA based airlines. In Mexico ULCC Volaris seems to be doing better financially than Aeromexico which is the legacy carrier. Also more people in USA are going to Tijuana instead of San Diego for flights to Mexico by crossing over the passenger bridge from USA side. Volaris seems to be a large beneficiary. In USA the legacies and LCC are in stronger positions.

 

[jebr]

Some LCC carriers include the most features like free bags and no change fee in their base fares so I wound agree in that sense.

Southwest is the only major carrier in the US I'm aware of that offers free checked bags on all fares and hasn't introduced a basic economy-style ticket (at least not yet.) Unless you're flying Southwest, passengers need to check to see what particular fare they need that includes or allows buy-ups to include the things they need within a ticket.

To me, the basic economy fares are just too restrictive for travel. Even if it comes to less money with your requirements in terms of actual fees charged and fees and what you think you need, if there are any necessary changes due to your own issues or related to the airline such as a flight delayed or cancelled and you want to change to another flight, a basic economy ticket is going to mean lower priority and more hassle and inconvenience and more risk of losing the entire fare you paid.

While I'm generally buying main cabin tickets these days (or on the ULCCs making sure that I'm comfortable losing the cost of the fare should I decide not to travel since close-in change fees with them are usually more than the cost of the ticket,) in my experience fare class matters very little if there's an airline cancellation or delay. Some personal examples:

• I flew on Delta basic economy pre-pandemic, and during delays we were treated no differently than other passengers (nothing major was offered, though rebooking options were automatically triggered.)
• On a United flight in basic economy that I took, we were offered the same snack/beverage cart options in the terminal during the delay as all the other passengers. Rebooking options were also automatically triggered pretty quickly.
• On an Alaska flight with a five-hour delay (mechanical issues,) as a first class passenger we were offered the same $12 food voucher that all other passengers were offered (and automatically emailed.) We also had a $100 voucher for a future flight upon landing - not sure if that was due to first class or if everyone was offered that.
• On the American flight I've mentioned before in this thread, we were booked on a main cabin (not basic economy) ticket. I'm not sure if it would've been even worse with basic economy, but from what it seemed like there we had no particular advantage on a main cabin ticket vs. basic economy. If nothing else, the rebooking line was the same for everyone!

The one thing that I've heard can matter (sometimes a lot) is your loyalty status with the airline. I've never had status with an airline, so I don't know how much it changes things, but there's usually at least special phone lines with shorter wait times. I've also heard reports that some airlines are much more lenient on rebooking on another airline for high-level elites than they are for general passengers. But, at least in my experience, basic economy vs. main cabin makes very little difference if the airline changes/cancels/delays your flight.

 

[adamj023]

Southwest is the only major carrier in the US I'm aware of that offers free checked bags on all fares and hasn't introduced a basic economy-style ticket (at least not yet.) Unless you're flying Southwest, passengers need to check to see what particular fare they need that includes or allows buy-ups to include the things they need within a ticket.



While I'm generally buying main cabin tickets these days (or on the ULCCs making sure that I'm comfortable losing the cost of the fare should I decide not to travel since close-in change fees with them are usually more than the cost of the ticket,) in my experience fare class matters very little if there's an airline cancellation or delay. Some personal examples:

• I flew on Delta basic economy pre-pandemic, and during delays we were treated no differently than other passengers (nothing major was offered, though rebooking options were automatically triggered.)
• On a United flight in basic economy that I took, we were offered the same snack/beverage cart options in the terminal during the delay as all the other passengers. Rebooking options were also automatically triggered pretty quickly.
• On an Alaska flight with a five-hour delay (mechanical issues,) as a first class passenger we were offered the same $12 food voucher that all other passengers were offered (and automatically emailed.) We also had a $100 voucher for a future flight upon landing - not sure if that was due to first class or if everyone was offered that.
• On the American flight I've mentioned before in this thread, we were booked on a main cabin (not basic economy) ticket. I'm not sure if it would've been even worse with basic economy, but from what it seemed like there we had no particular advantage on a main cabin ticket vs. basic economy. If nothing else, the rebooking line was the same for everyone!

The one thing that I've heard can matter (sometimes a lot) is your loyalty status with the airline. I've never had status with an airline, so I don't know how much it changes things, but there's usually at least special phone lines with shorter wait times. I've also heard reports that some airlines are much more lenient on rebooking on another airline for high-level elites than they are for general passengers. But, at least in my experience, basic economy vs. main cabin makes very little difference if the airline changes/cancels/delays your flight.

I agree in many cases there will not be a difference but in cases where there is limited flight availability, basic economy tickets have lower priority and will be denied boarding before a regular economy ticket should it be necessary if there are not enough volunteers. I would also think that they would be boarded in the last tier when a flight is available if you don’t have other ways of getting priority boarding