Future of the Pacific Parlour Cars?

[domefoamer]

What, pray tell, about the PPC makes it so very maintenance intensive? I can't imagine. The car doesn't contain a toilet, which seems like the single most troublesome device onboard Amtrak equipment. It doesn't have the hardware and hinges of a sleeper, or the hot and cold and wet hardware required for a diner. Its air conditioning wouldn't usually face any extreme load, given the mild coastal and mountain climates it operates in. It would need wheel replacements, like any car, but aren't they standard wheelsets?. What else is there to go wrong?

Reminds me of my 1985 Scamp fiberglass camp trailer. It demands new tires every ten years and a new battery too often, but the number of other moving parts is so low that it seldom shows its 30 years of age. Fiberglass is a near-forever material, as is stainless steel.

One factor that may have given the PPC a bad rep is that it obtains non-strandard parts that are hard to source for replacement. Glass would have to be custom-made. But hasn't Amtrak had plenty of time to re-engineer out any obvious faults? I'm no expert-- these are only my best guesses.

 

[neroden]

Actually, I suspect that the 1955 wheelsets are no longer standard. The gangways certainly aren't. And the PPC *does* contain cooking equipment, and a water supply. And then there's the electrical wiring...

Also, for some reason the Superliners have slightly higher floor levels than the Hi-Levels, making for the gangway mismatch which was mentioned earlier...

One factor that may have given the PPC a bad rep is that it obtains non-strandard parts that are hard to source for replacement.

This. They're 60 years old, for crying out loud. The parts are probably *all* non-standard by now. With 50 Hi-Levels, it might be viable to maintain a parts supply for them. With only 5 (or even 6), they're a headache.

This is one reason why Amtrak got rid of its dome cars: *nobody* had a large uniform fleet of dome cars, so there were at most 6 identical of any one type; nonstandard all the way.

 

[domefoamer]

Thanks for that information. How did I forget about the kitchen? I ate meals from it six months ago. What do I know-- not what a gangway is, that's for sure.

Don't get me started on the dome cars; my screen name says all. Whatever it took to maintain them would have been worth it to me. But standardization isn't the answer to everything. When Amtrak converted several SSLs to Cross Country Cafes, they created a new non-standard car with its own equipment list.

In favor of the PPC, it would seem that any failure-prone parts would be well known by now, from experience, and their failure rates would be predictable. There shouldn't be any surprises left. And they're not roaming the continent on various routes, so they'd never be far from a qualified shop, I suppose. It's not like the days of the Rainbow Fleet, where dozens of varieties of cars might show up broken down at any point in the system.

If all we want is transportation, that could be provided by all-coach trains serving box lunches. That would return us to the passenger RR experience of, say, 120 years ago. If that happened, my interest in passenger trains would drop to zero. Trains rarely are the fastest way to go, and from my departure point in Denver, they never will be. If I'm going to travel that way, I want some amenities, and the PPC is about the best that today's Amtrak has to offer.

 

[neroden]

Well, I guess I'm a bit different. I'm actually fine in a coach train with a sufficiently generous dining service... unless I have to sleep. I'm a very, very light sleeper so I need a compartment.

I do wish Amtrak would order a new set of single-level glasstops to replace the inadequate Amfleet lounge-cafes. Then they'd be standardized, you see. The Superliner Sightseer Lounge is a very nice descendant of the Santa Fe Hi-Level Lounges, though I really do wish they could keep the swivels working on the swivel chairs (they're mostly broken).

There was at one time a definite case to be made for keeping *all* the Santa Fe Hi-Levels (there were originally over 70 of them, though only 6 lounges), which would have meant more spare parts and fleet commonality. But Amtrak didn't do that. 5 of the 6 lounges became the PPCs but all the coaches were sold long ago, and I think not all of them were even acquired by Amtrak in the first place.

 

[creedential]

Actually, I suspect that the 1955 wheelsets are no longer standard. The gangways certainly aren't. And the PPC *does* contain cooking equipment, and a water supply. And then there's the electrical wiring...

Also, for some reason the Superliners have slightly higher floor levels than the Hi-Levels, making for the gangway mismatch which was mentioned earlier...

One factor that may have given the PPC a bad rep is that it obtains non-strandard parts that are hard to source for replacement.

This. They're 60 years old, for crying out loud. The parts are probably *all* non-standard by now. With 50 Hi-Levels, it might be viable to maintain a parts supply for them. With only 5 (or even 6), they're a headache.
This is one reason why Amtrak got rid of its dome cars: *nobody* had a large uniform fleet of dome cars, so there were at most 6 identical of any one type; nonstandard all the way.

It seems Via does a pretty good job with their equipment from the same era. I am curious to know how many reserve Park and Skyline cars they do keep. Perhaps it is double their required consists now that their schedules are limited?

 

[TVRM610]

When Amtrak converted several SSLs to Cross Country Cafes, they created a new non-standard car with its own equipment list.

I don't think any SSL's were converted, only Diners. The cars are not non-standard, they are standard superliners, with standard windows, doors, electrical, etc. etc. The only difference is cosmetic. If the PPC and the SIghtseer cars were identical except for the interiors (swivel chairs and a bar etc.) there wouldn't be an issue.

 

[TVRM610]

It seems Via does a pretty good job with their equipment from the same era. I am curious to know how many reserve Park and Skyline cars they do keep. Perhaps it is double their required consists now that their schedules are limited?

It's not really the era, it's the fact the PPC cars are so unique. As was mentioned earlier, if Amtrak had kept an entire fleet of hi-levels, this would be a different story.

VIA Rail has an entire fleet of BUDD Cars, they have all been updated and maintained by VIA in the same way. So yes the VIA cars are old, but they are a matching standard fleet.

I'm all for the PPC's - and hope they stay. But I realize this is a unique situation...

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The outfit in Illinois that gathered up many of the Hi-Levels seems to think they have a good future in store with a private or commuter operation as they have concepted some really nice interior upgrades for them.

 

[jis]

With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.

 

[TVRM610]

With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.

Seriously? Not following the Indiana thread I guess!

 

[neroden]

VIA Rail has an entire fleet of BUDD Cars, they have all been updated and maintained by VIA in the same way. So yes the VIA cars are old, but they are a matching standard fleet.

The VIA cars were also almost all from Canadian Pacific, so they were a matching set to start with. When they bought additional Budds, they carefully selected the ones which most closely matched the CP Budds, and rejected the oddballs.

The outfit in Illinois that gathered up many of the Hi-Levels seems to think they have a good future in store with a private or commuter operation as they have concepted some really nice interior upgrades for them.

I think they really could make them work, but they'd have to be better capitalized -- basically they need to do the retrofitting in advance, on their own dime, before anyone will go for it. As California discovered with the Comet Ibs, reconditioning an old railroad car can have unexpected costs and unexpected delays (once you start tearing it apart, you find unexpected damage). No state wants to get into this and discover a large unexpected cost/delay halfway through.

 

[jis]

The Brits in course of their privatization effort, sometimes indirectly, subsidized the so called ROSCOEs, the rail equipment leasing companies to get them on their feet starting from under-maintained equipment. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on ones point of view and inclination on such matters, it appears that such is unlikely in the US.

 

[jis]

With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.

Seriously? Not following the Indiana thread I guess!

Nothing has happened there yet, and in case you followed what is being proposed there, they do not involve the cars in question here. So yes seriously

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[TVRM610]

With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys trting to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them.

Seriously? Not following the Indiana thread I guess!

Nothing has happened there yet, and in case you followed what is being proposed there, they do not involve the cars in question here. So yes seriously

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The initial proposal DID involve the cars in question here, and it's the same company.

 

[Ryan]

No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.

 

[TVRM610]

No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.

"speculation" ? It was more than speculation. http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/chicago-company-is-finalist-to-operate-hoosier-state/article_2f29f00a-38f3-56c7-8b21-ebc48f93ad74.html this and many other articles clearly mentioned the hi-level cars when talking about CC's involvement. The CC's website is all about the hi-level cars, and it would seem that even the state of Indiana was surprised that the hi-levels would not be used.

EVEN if it was known all along that the hi-levels were not to be used my point still stands, the company that owns the hi-levels is being highly discussed in that thread and there seems to be many reasons NOT to do business with them.

As for the cars themselves, if they can be modified to be used in corridor service I think the plan to use them could work very well. I'm not sure the actual expense involved though.. and no one knows that... hence the problem.

 

[jis]

The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.

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[TVRM610]

The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

I never said they were a part of concrete proposal... are you even reading what i type? or are you just looking at ways to argue.

You said "With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys {starting} to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them."

there are no cars to use! no one actually knows how much it will cost to refurbish them. until they can provide an actual cost (not an estimate) it's no wonder the cars are not in use.

And I'm gonna go out on a limb here... I don't think there was ever anything in writing that said the INDOT service would be single-level cars. I think INDOT was led to believe there would be hi-levels ready for them until the contract was signed. Now that's just my speculation....

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sounds like IDOT did a lot of assuming and you know what happens when you Ass U Me!!!

 

[jis]

The point still remains that those cars have never been actually included any concrete proposal. Random news reports is a different thing. The only cars concretely proposed were single level cars.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

I never said they were a part of concrete proposal... are you even reading what i type? or are you just looking at ways to argue.

Funny that is exactly what I thought you ere doing

You said "With so many commuter operations starting up looking for equipment, I am trulys {starting} to wonder why they have not landed a single engagement with some of them."

Yes, and there has been none so that statement is still true. And yet you somehow came to the conclusion that there had been and suggested that I had not been keeping track of what was going on in Indiana!
Anyway, if you wish, rant away. I am done with this silly sub thread.

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[Ryan]

No, it really didn't, despite speculation to the contrary.

"speculation" ? It was more than speculation. http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transportation/chicago-company-is-finalist-to-operate-hoosier-state/article_2f29f00a-38f3-56c7-8b21-ebc48f93ad74.html this and many other articles clearly mentioned the hi-level cars when talking about CC's involvement.

That looks like nothing but speculation to me.

All on has to do is look at their website to see that it would have been impossible for them to use the hi-levels for the Indiana service:

Before selling or leasing them to a passenger-rail operator, Corridor Capital will totally rebuild them, “tubing out” each car so that only the body shell and the truck assemblies are retained. Everything else—air-brake systems, window glass and seals, heating and air conditioning, plumbing, electrical systems, flooring, seats, public-information systems, wheels, suspension, interior surfaces and fabrics, will be replaced with the latest contemporary technology and materials. The cars will be virtually indistinguishable from, and interoperable with, the “Next Generation” bi-level railcars financed by the 2009 American Recovery & Reinvestment Act.

Note the future tense. That wasn't going to happen on the timeline for Indiana, so Jishnu's statement that they haven't been involved in a concrete proposal holds true, and your implication that they were a part of the Indiana proposal is obviously false.

Like Jishnu, I'm done.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

And I thought this topic was about the Pacific Parlour cars on the Coast Starlight.

 

[afigg]

And I thought this topic was about the Pacific Parlour cars on the Coast Starlight.

Yes, it has taken a rather odd detour into Indiana and the soap opera (popcorn flick?) that now surrounds the Hoosier State which have nothing to do with the PPCs.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Hey, its AU and Amtrak, that's our SOP here!!!

 

[SteveSFL]

The amtrak service notice says that while the PPC's are out of service passengers will still be able to enjoy the dining car and the SSL. I wonder if this means that there will be a regular SSL and then another SSL for sleeper passengers only as happens when a PPC is bad ordered or if there will only be one SSL on the train for use by everyone. I suspect only one SSL since Amtrak probably doesn't have enough extra SSL's to replace all the PPC's at once.