High Speed Rail $$

[BuzzKillington]

Is this money EVER going to be awarded to the different states/Amtrak for rail corridors? By the time they figure out where to put this money for the "shovel ready" projects, the recession is going to be over and it will all be for nothing. People should be working on these projects right now when unemployment is very high... Not 5 years from now when it is back down to normal...

 

[MrEd]

There was a meeting in DC this week to seek more money on top of what was already requested.

...

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Communities and companies seeking to build high-speed rail systems haven't yet received the $8 billion in stimulus money the Obama administration promised for the projects, and already they want more --- a lot more.

The consensus at a conference for high-speed rail proponents here this week was that the federal government should ante up substantially more to demonstrate the long-term financial commitment to make the projects viable.

The U.S. High Speed Rail Association is promoting a plan for a 17,000-mile, national network of 220 mph bullet trains - a wish list of every potentially credible project. The estimated price tag: $600 billion over 20 years.

....

http://pantagraph.com/business/article_729...1cc4c002e0.html

 

[VentureForth]

Heck, it'd employee a lot more folks than the current trillion we're spending on "stimulus"...

 

[Greg]

Is this money EVER going to be awarded to the different states/Amtrak for rail corridors? By the time they figure out where to put this money for the "shovel ready" projects, the recession is going to be over and it will all be for nothing. People should be working on these projects right now when unemployment is very high... Not 5 years from now when it is back down to normal...

I don't think it's all for nothing whenever they decide to do it. Supporting passenger rail financially is good in good times and bad.

 

[saxman]

Remember that "Track 2" projects were only submitted at the beginning of the month. "Track 1" projects were submitted sometime in September, IIRC. So it's only really been a month or two since projects have been submitted, and remember talking about government here. It'll take a few weeks for the FRA and all of them to decide who gets what.

In fact I just saw an article that Obama will be announcing the "winners" in his first state of union address in January. So I'm assuming we'll be waiting until then.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Is this money EVER going to be awarded to the different states/Amtrak for rail corridors? By the time they figure out where to put this money for the "shovel ready" projects, the recession is going to be over and it will all be for nothing. People should be working on these projects right now when unemployment is very high... Not 5 years from now when it is back down to normal...

I don't think it's all for nothing whenever they decide to do it. Supporting passenger rail financially is good in good times and bad.

I agree with that and everything, but you have to remember that this is a "stimulus" package which was sold to Americans as a way to get the economy going again. If the money doesn't get spent for several years, there should be an investigation with people getting in trouble for lying to the American public.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Is this money EVER going to be awarded to the different states/Amtrak for rail corridors? By the time they figure out where to put this money for the "shovel ready" projects, the recession is going to be over and it will all be for nothing. People should be working on these projects right now when unemployment is very high... Not 5 years from now when it is back down to normal...

I don't think it's all for nothing whenever they decide to do it. Supporting passenger rail financially is good in good times and bad.

I agree with that and everything, but you have to remember that this is a "stimulus" package which was sold to Americans as a way to get the economy going again. If the money doesn't get spent for several years, there should be an investigation with people getting in trouble for lying to the American public.

I believe some of the money will be awarded next month or in December. Such a long lag time in funding and getting railroad projects under way isn't unusual given the various hoops transit authorities must jump in order to qualify for the cash. At least these projects haven't had to go to an "alternatives" study to see if Bus Rapid Transit wouldn't be a better use of money!

There were a lot of applications and I would hope that some good thinking will go into the awarding of these funds. If high speed rail takes off as we all hope it all, then even more projects will be funded.

Unfortunately, this all takes time. I think it took Metra 10 years to get the North Central Line up and running. The proposed Metra Southeast Line serving my home will take another decade to get going. I just hope I'll be able to ride some of these new services while I'm still able.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Now that I think of it, the high speed rail projects aren't part of the stimulus project. Amtrak stimulus projects involve the rebuilding of the wrecked and out of service Amfleet and Superliner cars, the replacement of a bridge in Connecticut on the Boston-NYC line, updating a host of station facilities to ADA standards and a bunch of smaller stuff.

There are no "shovel ready" high speed projects. California's is furtherest along, but it will be a number of years before any actual construction projects. The high speed projects are big, complicated and expensive. While we all wait something to start soon, I'm sure no one wants to waste any of this money on less than worthy expenditures.

 

[AlanB]

No the first $8 Billion for High Speed Rail was included in the Stimulus package. That money isn't going directly to Amtrak, it will go to states who may or may not hire Amtrak to run any high speed service that they build.

In addition to that, Amtrak did get some Stimulus monies directly for repairing wrecks and getting some P40's out of mothballs, along with some bridge projects, the new website, new power equipment along the NEC, and a bunch of other things.

 

[TampAGS]

I believe some of the money will be awarded next month or in December. ...

Yes, the media in Florida has been saying a decision should come in December.

 

They're proposing calling a special session of Florida's legislature to meet before then so they can once again address the issues of properly funding the state's existing and proposed non-high speed rail systems, to show that the state has a commitment to rail transit. Evidence of such commitment has thus far been lacking in Tallahassee. It is felt that unless that situation changes, Florida's chances of getting any of the federal funding is slim.

 

[rolfecms]

I agree with that and everything, but you have to remember that this is a "stimulus" package which was sold to Americans as a way to get the economy going again. If the money doesn't get spent for several years, there should be an investigation with people getting in trouble for lying to the American public.

While I'm a proponent of high speed rail and mass transit generally, I am totally against reckless government spending with no regard to the huge and climbing deficits we're seeing. And I resent those who use the justification of 'don't let any crisis go to waste' to jack up spending in a supposedly 'stimulus' package that doesn't spend the money in a stimulus fashion - ie, right away - on shovel-ready projects.

It's not providing stimulus if the money is spent after the resession is over. Just ask the nearly 10% of the unemployed whether they think it is :angry:

 

[Guest]

I agree with that and everything, but you have to remember that this is a "stimulus" package which was sold to Americans as a way to get the economy going again. If the money doesn't get spent for several years, there should be an investigation with people getting in trouble for lying to the American public.

While I'm a proponent of high speed rail and mass transit generally, I am totally against reckless government spending with no regard to the huge and climbing deficits we're seeing. And I resent those who use the justification of 'don't let any crisis go to waste' to jack up spending in a supposedly 'stimulus' package that doesn't spend the money in a stimulus fashion - ie, right away - on shovel-ready projects.

It's not providing stimulus if the money is spent after the resession is over. Just ask the nearly 10% of the unemployed whether they think it is :angry:

Just ask the thousands on dead and wounded soldiers in Iraq and the new Vietnam Afghan if the billions we are wasting there are worth it?

The deficit spending started under the Bush Republican regime, Clinton left a surplus (and no wars, plus high employment), crying about the mess that

Obama inherited and HAS to fix is insane! Were all in this together, quit giving money to greedy,failing corporations, get the regulations working as they are intended and watch America come surging back! CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!!! (This includes HSR and Amtrak!!!)

 

[rolfecms]

Just ask the thousands on dead and wounded soldiers in Iraq and the new Vietnam Afghan if the billions we are wasting there are worth it?The deficit spending started under the Bush Republican regime, Clinton left a surplus (and no wars, plus high employment), crying about the mess that Obama inherited and HAS to fix is insane! Were all in this together, quit giving money to greedy,failing corporations, get the regulations working as they are intended and watch America come surging back! CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!!! (This includes HSR and Amtrak!!!)

Yes, "Guest", it's way past time for those in power to start taking responsibility for how things are NOW, stop being crybabies and quit blaming everyone else. Your arguments are starting to wear a little thin - and the American people have started to realize it. We've heard all of this before ad nauseum - but it's just NOT working as well as it did at election time. :lol:

 

[Ryan]

It's not providing stimulus if the money is spent after the resession is over. Just ask the nearly 10% of the unemployed whether they think it is :angry:

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you seem to be trying to simultaneously argue that the recession is over and the HSR money won't be spent in time to contribute to the recovery while also claiming that the recession is over. You're actually wrong on both counts, the recession (according to the economics definition) is over (employment rates are a lagging indicator, as businesses want to make sure that the recovery is "for reals" before hiring workers back on), and continued capital spending is necessary to ensure that the recovery continues (and give the businesses the confidence that they need to start reducing unemployment).

Before you continue with the "crybabies" line and attempt to lay all of our problems at the feet of the current administration, I'd suggest learning a little more of the economic fundamentals that you're trying to discuss.

 

[rolfecms]

Before you continue with the "crybabies" line and attempt to lay all of our problems at the feet of the current administration, I'd suggest learning a little more of the economic fundamentals that you're trying to discuss.

According to newspaper accounts describing the congressional 'stimulous' bill, much of the money authorized will actually be spent in later years - which means the recession will have been over by that time. It defeats the whole purpose of such a bill.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you seem to be trying to simultaneously argue that the recession is over and the HSR money won't be spent in time to contribute to the recovery while also claiming that the recession is over. You're actually wrong on both counts, the recession (according to the economics definition) is over

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not constantly watching places of business closing here on an almost daily basis. Not constantly watching unemployment going up and up. Not listening to discussions of decreased consumer confidence. Oh, on paper our GNP may have stopped declining briefly. But I suggest you sit there and recalculate the number after removing Walmart from the equation. I think you will find the picture very different.

 

[volkris]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Not constantly watching places of business closing here on an almost daily basis. Not constantly watching unemployment going up and up. Not listening to discussions of decreased consumer confidence. Oh, on paper our GNP may have stopped declining briefly. But I suggest you sit there and recalculate the number after removing Walmart from the equation. I think you will find the picture very different.

You have it backwards: Walmart should be at the HEART of the equation.

Walmart represents real sales made to real consumers applying their funds toward fulfilling their needs and desires. Thus, Walmart is a great part of any analysis to see what's really happening to the economy.

The entity that needs the suspicion is government. Some analysis shows that the recent paper gains is attributable entirely to the unsustainable, already over spending on the part of the federal government through "stimulus" and other questionable efforts. It amounts to fraud, really, and when companies cook the books like that they get in trouble with their shareholders if not the SEC.

Take government's deficit spending out of the equation and the picture is pretty consistent: continuing job losses, continuing low consumer confidence, continuing low rates of spending, and continuing low GDP performance. Bring government spending back in and you get a talking point that the politicians can crow about... to the detriment of the rest of the system.

It would have been nice if the stimulus stuff did what was promised, focusing on infrastructure and improvements like rail and HSR, but it didn't. Instead, even the administration's own questionable pronouncements seem to focus on paying this month's bills for ongoing costs, failing to stimulate and just putting the hard decisions off until tomorrow... but making a pretty mark on a paper that can be held up like a child's picture of his mommy.

Sadly, the HSR money that was promised is just going to have to wait... it's not the priority with these guys.

 

[Donctor]

Volkris and GML, I don't think you guys are going to agree. You both have very strong opinions which fall at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You have it backwards: Walmart should be at the HEART of the equation.

Walmart is the mechanism that destroys us. It is large business run-a-mok. Walmart is the cause of more going out of business sales then any single entity in the history of man kind. WalMart takes sales away from other operators while employing less people and crushing small business. Wal Mart deprives us of quality and replaces it with quantity. Walmart convinces people that they can afford to spend, spend, spend on junk, crap, ****.

Walmart is coming up on the conundrum given to Henry Ford when he demonstrated to the first Ford Union's head his fully automated assembly line requiring almost no workers: "But Mr. Ford... who will buy the cars?"

 

[VT Hokie]

I just think it's a shame that none of the stimulus money went to Super Steel Schenectady to build a new fleet of Turboliners!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I just think it's a shame that none of the stimulus money went to Super Steel Schenectady to build a new fleet of Turboliners!

... Joseph Boardman himself has said, in hearing of a great many people at RailFest '09, that they are junk. And he told the entire assembled people in a speech that they aren't coming back. Why must you pine for these badly-rebuilt examples of a stupid idea to begin with? I understand lusting after things. I do. But jesus, this is like lusting after Zsa Zsa Gabor.

 

[Rob_C]

lol Based on the exclamation point on the end of VT Hokie's post, I assumed he was joking.

But I nearly spit soda at GML's response about Zsa Zsa Gabor... haha!

 

[volkris]

GML misses the point of my comment, heading way offtopic to discuss whether Walmart is good or bad.

We're here asking where the stimulus money for HSR went. Well, this week we had all sorts of crowing about GDP numbers being positive but, as GML said, that was just papering over what's really happening.

The feds have thrown money all over the place, inflating the government spending component of GDP to make up for the others, which are still lackluster. Thus they were able to brag about it in the past week. Had the administration focused on infrastructure, HSR, and other promised projects, that government spending number would probably have been lower, and they wouldn't have been able to hold up an improving GDP. In the longrun we would have been better off, though, as government's deficit spending is an unsustainable foundation for GDP.

The point is, whether intentionally or not, by not prioritizing infrastructure this administration was able to claim a win. Whether it was planned that way is anyone's guess, but at the least it shouldn't be surprising that such efforts don't seem to be running full steam ahead when they would siphon resources away from good PR.

 

[Donctor]

The feds have thrown money all over the place, inflating the government spending component of GDP to make up for the others, which are still lackluster. Thus they were able to brag about it in the past week. Had the administration focused on infrastructure, HSR, and other promised projects, that government spending number would probably have been lower, and they wouldn't have been able to hold up an improving GDP. In the longrun we would have been better off, though, as government's deficit spending is an unsustainable foundation for GDP.

(Sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I feel compelled to say it anyway.) What I find disappointing is that I completely agree with you. And I was (and continue to be) a very strong Obama supporter. I campaigned for him in six different states, and I worked at his campaign headquarters in downtown Chicago (near my place of residence). I think his ideas are good, but I don't think a lot of his plans are actually feasible. Whatever, at least McCain isn't running this country.

The point is, whether intentionally or not, by not prioritizing infrastructure this administration was able to claim a win. Whether it was planned that way is anyone's guess, but at the least it shouldn't be surprising that such efforts don't seem to be running full steam ahead when they would siphon resources away from good PR.

I would doubt that the deception is intentional. In a lot of ways, I feel as though the administration just doesn't know any better.

 

[haolerider]

GML misses the point of my comment, heading way offtopic to discuss whether Walmart is good or bad.
We're here asking where the stimulus money for HSR went. Well, this week we had all sorts of crowing about GDP numbers being positive but, as GML said, that was just papering over what's really happening.

The feds have thrown money all over the place, inflating the government spending component of GDP to make up for the others, which are still lackluster. Thus they were able to brag about it in the past week. Had the administration focused on infrastructure, HSR, and other promised projects, that government spending number would probably have been lower, and they wouldn't have been able to hold up an improving GDP. In the longrun we would have been better off, though, as government's deficit spending is an unsustainable foundation for GDP.

The point is, whether intentionally or not, by not prioritizing infrastructure this administration was able to claim a win. Whether it was planned that way is anyone's guess, but at the least it shouldn't be surprising that such efforts don't seem to be running full steam ahead when they would siphon resources away from good PR.

I think everyone is missing the point on the High Speed Rail money. The Stimulus money was intended to go to shovel ready projects and there have been plenty. There are no shovel ready HSR projects, since the states were not prepared to move forward and few of them had even thought of HSR. The states had to get their project plans together and submit them to Amtrak for consideration and ranking. This, of course, has taken some time. Once they projects are ranked - according to how they would integrate with the current system, whether they serve the public or are just political projects and how feasible they really are. As I understand it, at that point Amtrak would look to the government for the HSR money and not before. In my opinion, too many times on this forum we expect things to happen immediately, since rail is top of mind with most of us. Unfortunately, there are very few in the country who wake up in the morning and wonder what is happening with the railroads. Amtrak has used the Stimulus money in Beech Grove and Bear to hire substantial numbers of employees to work on the wrecked equipment and get it back on the road. Money - in the case of Amtrak - has not been wasted; howwever that may not be the case in other industries or companies. I am sure some of the cash has gone down the drain, but there are companies like Ford who refused the money and just this morning reported a rather massive profit. Stimulus has helped some and been wasted on others - not untypical of government programs!