History's longest rail passenger ride.

[RedUnderTheBed]

I thought the London coaches from the Orient Express were shunted onto the ferry at Dover? I have a half memory of this being the case?

I suggest the slow repairs to the track between NOL and JAX may result in another 3 year delay..!

 

[George Harris]

I suggest the slow repairs to the track between NOL and JAX may result in another 3 year delay..!

Track repair is done and long since done. The ball is now in Amtrak's court and has been for over six months and they are sitting on it.

 

[vector_one75]

The change of gauge of the wheels on the axles only work for equipment that is built for it to happen. If you tried to slide the wheels in or out on the axles on wheelsets not made for it to happen you would only end up breaking something. The changes at the border between China and Mongolia or Russia is by means of swapping the trucks. Again on coaches and freight cars built so this can reasonably easily be done, and done at facilities built for that purpose.

Yes, this is true, it requires specific equipment dedicated to the train and route. Nevertheless, given a specific route and equipment, both ways of changing gauge are possible and in fact have been done, even if the effort to do the in-motion change at the Spanish border on the Talgo TEE "Le Catalan" was more of a "we can do it" rather than "should we do it?" issue, given that the Barcelona terminus of the train is not too far from the border and perhaps a dual gauge trackage or a parallel standard gauge line for that short distance (such as the Sydney-Brisbane service on the standard gauge line a short distance from the New Soth Wales - Queensland [Australia] border) might have made more economic sense.

A third way of gauge change has been suggested in Australia (which uses 3 major gauges [broad, standard, and narrow] plus a few minors). In the specific efforts to develop through freight (passenges don't matter - they can transfer! [this is NOT MY philosophy!]) over Australian routes of broad and standard gauge, the idea has been tossed around to modify the wheel flange/tread profile to create a double tread, whose inner wheel tread serves as a flange of the outer wheel, so that the freight car need not be changed - a slight ramp off one gauge onto another simply puts the double tread/flange on to the other gauge track. A diagram might help visualise this, and the double wheels would be symmetrical on the axles, so the couplers remain co-linear, but I'm not sure how to attach sketches into one of these postings. This idea was first presented several years ago in an Australian railway trade (NOT FAN) magazine as one way that dual gauging or special changes of wheels enroute can be eliminated with minimal cost and hassle. Freight cars that would be expected to have loads typically along routes where gauge transhipments may be necessary would be equipped with these dual wheels and could operate locally even within either gauge system or change enroute at will without any effort other than to slow down a bit. I imagine that this is still in the investigative stage yet at this point, but it seems that it is an interestinmg way of handling different gauges that has many positive aspects.

The Bering Strait tunnel has been talked about for at least 20 plus years. The tunnel itself is the simple part. The terrain on each side is amongst the most inhospitible in the world. Heavily mountainous and actually colder than the Arctic ocean shoreline. Any rough running of the cost numbers says that this will only be built for political reasons. Econcomically it would not make sense at all. There was also at one time some discussion on a Bering Strait highway / railway bridge. That would be even less rational, in fact FAR less rational than a tunnel.

The Bering Strait is roughly within the range of the English Channel, and yes, the ice floes would raise havoc to bridge piers. For a tunnel, there is the issue of seismic activity in the Alaska region. But a lot of infrastructuire in the world (even for the "race for outer space") has been built, as you say, at very high uneconomical cost for political, social, or national prestige reasons rather than economic reasons, and who is to say that future politics may not one day call for it. And if it does occur, I wish I would have been born a lot later to take a continuous rail trip that long!

The connnection of the Alaska Railroad through to the Canadian system has also been talked about for many years. In fact the original construction of the Alaska Highways during WW2 followed discussion on whether to construct a road or a railroad. The final conclusions was that the traffic volume did not justify a railroad. It still may not. If such a line is built, it will connect to the Alaska Railroad at the north end. The terrain makes that necessary.

Yes, the article I saw had the BC-Yukon-Alaska line connectng to the Alaska RR at Fairbanks, in other words the trains would run "down southward" to Anchorage as their terminus rather than what most people would have looked upon as the other way around.

As to a railroad between Australia and Asia: All I can say is look at a map and scale off the gaps between islands. They are much larger that it appears that you are thinking. Even the various islands of Indonesia have no bridges between them, though some are close enough that they are within the range of reasonable engineering solutions, but probably not within the range of reasonable economics.

My comments on this particular matter of course were totally speculative "wishful thinking" as a possible afterthought to the Eurasian-American all-rail route via the Bering Strait that was being suggested, but again, who knows what future political realities might ensue in the future. Again, due to cyclonic conditions, tunnels may be better technically, but too, seismic activity issues must be faced as well.

Sincerely,

Vytautas B. Radzivanas

Perth, Western Australia

 

[George Harris]

There is or was a web site for the "interhemispheric tunnel" I have not looked at it for a long time. It was very optimistic on its cost estimates, to say the least. The per mile cost for the connecting railroads across Alaska and Siberia were more on the order of easy open country instead of what would be reasonable in a very remote region in a harsh climate and rugged terrain.

The tunnel itself is about twice the length of the English Channel Tunnel, but thanks to the mid strait islands, it is fairly close to simply doing the English Channel Tunnel twice, end to end. Actually, more like half the tunnel twice end to end, since the thought is that the initial work would be a single track tunnel. It would and should be slightly larger in cross section as it should be able to carry double stacked containers, which the English Channel Tunnel cannot. Of course you would have to construct a power plant for it as well; there is not exactly a large local electric grid to tap into.

 

[Alex]

There is or was a web site for the "interhemispheric tunnel" I have not looked at it for a long time. It was very optimistic on its cost estimates, to say the least. The per mile cost for the connecting railroads across Alaska and Siberia were more on the order of easy open country instead of what would be reasonable in a very remote region in a harsh climate and rugged terrain.
The tunnel itself is about twice the length of the English Channel Tunnel, but thanks to the mid strait islands, it is fairly close to simply doing the English Channel Tunnel twice, end to end. Actually, more like half the tunnel twice end to end, since the thought is that the initial work would be a single track tunnel. It would and should be slightly larger in cross section as it should be able to carry double stacked containers, which the English Channel Tunnel cannot. Of course you would have to construct a power plant for it as well; there is not exactly a large local electric grid to tap into.

This sounds like a really bad idea.

There a million better things this money could be spent on. I take that nearly everyone else in the world agrees. You also realize that Russian contractors would embezzle 25% of the money and politicians would embezzle another 25%. This should be factored into the costs. I suppose figure only about 5% for the Americans. I met a man who has a rail-tunnel construction company in Russia. He is one the few people I think might disagree with me about the value of this project.

 

[George Harris]

Am also very much in agreement that this would be a huge waste of money. There is no possible way that you could haul containers through it cheaper than ocean shipping and ever hope to pay for it. In fact, given the economies in ocean freight, it is doubtful the line would ever be able to charge rates high enough to cover its operating cost.

Now to build a connection into Fairbanks from some point on the Canadian system could be a different story.

George

 

[Alex]

On the other hand, the Russians could announce the completion of the BAM for the fourth (or umpteenth?) time and seeing that the BAM is nothing other than a colossally bad idea, why not keep it going?

 

[George Harris]

On the other hand, the Russians could announce the completion of the BAM for the fourth (or umpteenth?) time and seeing that the BAM is nothing other than a colossally bad idea, why not keep it going?

In actuality in a funny Russian and Soviet-style logic sort of way, the BAM originally made sense. The original Trans-Siberian was, and possibly still is, a fairly congested railroad, and security-wise, always a big part of Soviet and Russian paranoia and zenophobia, its long portion very close to the Chinese border always made them nervous.

The congestion could have been significantly relieved by simply running much longer freight trains, something on the order of American style. The lengthening of sidings and yard tracks would have cost peanuts compared to a new railroad line. Not sure what the traffic density is now.

But, there was also the thought of opening up large almost inaccessible areas to population and development. Siberia is very lightly populated, and of course climate has a lot to do with it

George

 

[Alex]

On the other hand, the Russians could announce the completion of the BAM for the fourth (or umpteenth?) time and seeing that the BAM is nothing other than a colossally bad idea, why not keep it going?

In actuality in a funny Russian and Soviet-style logic sort of way, the BAM originally made sense. The original Trans-Siberian was, and possibly still is, a fairly congested railroad, and security-wise, always a big part of Soviet and Russian paranoia and zenophobia, its long portion very close to the Chinese border always made them nervous.

The congestion could have been significantly relieved by simply running much longer freight trains, something on the order of American style. The lengthening of sidings and yard tracks would have cost peanuts compared to a new railroad line. Not sure what the traffic density is now.

But, there was also the thought of opening up large almost inaccessible areas to population and development. Siberia is very lightly populated, and of course climate has a lot to do with it

George

I lived in Siberia (but not for some time now) - Siberia was overpopulated by any free market system of population distribution. Now there are millions of people leaving Sibiera for the European part of Russia since settlement follows free economic patterns instead of patriotic top-down system (it would be good if people lived here and here and here). This is from along the mainline of the Trans-Sib. The BAM had all sorts of pioneer-towns founded my Communist Youths (Komsomoly) where no one lives today. I was in Severobaikal'sk three years ago, a town built for BAM railway men, and it's like a ghost town now and it's not bad compared to 80% of the towns along the BAM.

But yes the BAM made sense from a strategic point of view and it really got going again under Brezhnev when a) the country was in stagnation and he needed a project to inspire communistic enthuasiasm and B) relations with China got bad.

Judging by merely anecdotal evidence and my trips there, the Trans-Sib is much less used than it was in the mid 1980's but much more than it was in the early 1990's. Of course, the vast majority of traffic on it (and in fact nearly all RZhD lines except perhaps the Oktiarbyrskaya between Moscow and St. Peterburg but not even sure about that) is freight.

 

[sutton]

Hi All,

Great discussion; I plan on taking the Trans-Mongolian, not the longest, but most interesting in my opinion. But whichever of the three one takes, they all beat anything in North am. in terms of length. Oh, I think the first poster meant the Red Arrow from Moscow-St. Petersburg.

The Canadian has to be one of the most pleasant train trips for a long-distance train.

Anyway, though i've been on Russian trains (wonderful, the babushka and samovar), I'm looking forward to the trans-mongolian.

 

[gyuri_ft]

Hi All,Great discussion; I plan on taking the Trans-Mongolian, not the longest, but most interesting in my opinion. But whichever of the three one takes, they all beat anything in North am. in terms of length. Oh, I think the first poster meant the Red Arrow from Moscow-St. Petersburg.

The Canadian has to be one of the most pleasant train trips for a long-distance train.

Anyway, though i've been on Russian trains (wonderful, the babushka and samovar), I'm looking forward to the trans-mongolian.

If you buy the ticket fro Trans-Mongolian, make sure you buy the CITY-STAR, similar that on the picture.

This is an other sample of such ticket - it'a round-trip, but you have to purchase it in Slovakia. In order to do it, your best bet is to fly in Budapest (very conveniently located) and go to Sturovo (about an hour ride from Budapest). The original goal was to buy to Tumangan(GR), but somehow the computer did freak out, so the lade could issue it till Ussurijsk only. Kosice-Tumangan would be no problem, tough.

You will need to buy to "Naushki (GR)" instead of "Ussurijsk" or "Tuamangan(GR)". The (GR) after the station name (sometimes "FR") means, it's not the city but the "tariff breaking point". There are city pairs on the border and what is the tariff braking point is often random. In your case it could be SuheBator(GR) or Naushki(GR), but in the computer and in the "big boring books" it's Naushki(GR), thus you should buy Kosice-Naushki(GR) or Bratiskava-Naushki(GR).

Once you buy it, return to Budapest and buy Budapest - Chop, don't travel from Bratislava or Kosice - it's not good train, very slow schedule and (LISTEN, AMTRAK, LISTEN!!!) has no dining car. People reather sepend 30 Euro more between Budapest and Moscow and travel with the train having a diner rather change the trains in Kiev and no diner.

Speaking about trans-Mongolia: the Mongolian dining car of the regular train service, twice weekly (Helmut's pictures from 2005). To be clear: this is the regular twice-weekly service for people like you or me, not for "Rich and Famous". Rich and Famous go with other train. The ticket for this leg costs 84.19 Swiss Frank + $4 comission, total: $70.78. The passengers have to pay for lunch and dinner, but not for brakfast and snack. People also complain, this is much more expensive now, it used to be about $20 a while ago.

The usual "Streamliners" with double-head M62 Diesels:

Economy 2nd class bedroom (sleeps 4 people, the 1st class sleeps 2 people):

Made in Germany. The cars are world-standard, clearly derived from streamliner design. Ammendorf is oned by Bombardier. Why can't we have such cars in the U.S.? Because no crash-test was made? Because Railroad administration is so slow? Because some business reason?

 

[Nngo11]

Is there any rail link from Eurasia to Africa? I suppose this would have to be via the Sinai Peninsula.

 

[vector_one75]

Is there any rail link from Eurasia to Africa? I suppose this would have to be via the Sinai Peninsula.

The closest rail link to the Sinai was destroyed during the "Lawrence of Arabia" era, although I understand that scattered parts of that route have been re-opened over time. I believe that there is a railfan newsletter published in the Middle East called "Harakavet" (my spelling may be wrong) but I do not know the details.

On the west side of the Sinai has rail lines up to the Suez Canal, but that short stretch of the Sinai never had a rail link. However there is a bus service between Tel Aviv and Cairo via the Gaza Strip, which utilises a ferry across the Canal. My wife has had occasion to use this bus service, including intermediate points along the way, several times over a number of years in her music/dance cultural research projects.

Nor was there ever a continuous "Cape to Cairo" rail route that was talked about for the last century. You can get from Alexandria/Cairo to Luxor/Aswan in Egypt by train, but a Nile boat would be needed to link to the Sudanese Railway, then I think from there is no rail link til you get to Kenya, and from then southward, you can, by roundabout ways, go theough Zimbabwe and Capetown in South Africa by passenger rail. I once rode the "Trans-Natal" between Johannesburg and Durban, 19 cars long, and the best maintained track over the rugged Drakensberg Mountaind for a very restful sleep the overnight trip!

Sincerely,

Vytautas B. Radzivanas

Perth, Western AustraliA

Vytautas B. Radzivanas

Perth, Erstern Australia

 

[boratwanksta]

Hi All,

Great discussion; I plan on taking the Trans-Mongolian, not the longest, but most interesting in my opinion. But whichever of the three one takes, they all beat anything in North am. in terms of length. Oh, I think the first poster meant the Red Arrow from Moscow-St. Petersburg.

The Canadian has to be one of the most pleasant train trips for a long-distance train.

Anyway, though i've been on Russian trains (wonderful, the babushka and samovar), I'm looking forward to the trans-mongolian.

If you buy the ticket fro Trans-Mongolian, make sure you buy the CITY-STAR, similar that on the picture.

This is an other sample of such ticket - it'a round-trip, but you have to purchase it in Slovakia. In order to do it, your best bet is to fly in Budapest (very conveniently located) and go to Sturovo (about an hour ride from Budapest). The original goal was to buy to Tumangan(GR), but somehow the computer did freak out, so the lade could issue it till Ussurijsk only. Kosice-Tumangan would be no problem, tough.

You will need to buy to "Naushki (GR)" instead of "Ussurijsk" or "Tuamangan(GR)". The (GR) after the station name (sometimes "FR") means, it's not the city but the "tariff breaking point". There are city pairs on the border and what is the tariff braking point is often random. In your case it could be SuheBator(GR) or Naushki(GR), but in the computer and in the "big boring books" it's Naushki(GR), thus you should buy Kosice-Naushki(GR) or Bratiskava-Naushki(GR).

Once you buy it, return to Budapest and buy Budapest - Chop, don't travel from Bratislava or Kosice - it's not good train, very slow schedule and (LISTEN, AMTRAK, LISTEN!!!) has no dining car. People reather sepend 30 Euro more between Budapest and Moscow and travel with the train having a diner rather change the trains in Kiev and no diner.

Speaking about trans-Mongolia: the Mongolian dining car of the regular train service, twice weekly (Helmut's pictures from 2005). To be clear: this is the regular twice-weekly service for people like you or me, not for "Rich and Famous". Rich and Famous go with other train. The ticket for this leg costs 84.19 Swiss Frank + $4 comission, total: $70.78. The passengers have to pay for lunch and dinner, but not for brakfast and snack. People also complain, this is much more expensive now, it used to be about $20 a while ago.

very cool pics, i'd sure love it if Amtrak's sleepers were as spacious as that! i wouldn't be surprised either if some of the former railroads(pre-Amtrak) had sleepers that were as spacious as the Trans-Mongolian. and i agree with your point about the dining cars, people definately desire this option for long trips like this!

 

[gyuri_ft]

very cool pics, i'd sure love it if Amtrak's sleepers were as spacious as that! i wouldn't be surprised either if some of the former railroads(pre-Amtrak) had sleepers that were as spacious as the Trans-Mongolian. and i agree with your point about the dining cars, people definately desire this option for long trips like this!

Too bad, it wasn't me, the pics are on railfan server:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix_frameset.html

and I know the guy who did travel (Helmut Uttentaler from Austria).

I had my little contri there this year with Turkish sleepers: these have even a refrigerator in the compartment.

The turkish cars are looking much more modern and nice than Mongolian ones - but I would be happy if we would have the long string of Mongolian sleepers on Coast Starlight.

 

[Guest]

But wait for the future! There are moves afoot in Canada and Alaska to link up woth rail from British Columbia. There was an article in Time Magazine (don't remember the issue) with the future proposals to cross the Bering Strait and link up with the Siberian rail system. Break of gauge is not a problem: the Eiropeans switch trucks under the cars, or for the Catalan Talgo, the axles autoimatically do the switch at low speed as the track gauge changes. So, if there was to be a passenger train (oreven just a through car service) from, say Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, va the USA, Canada, the proposed new link, Alaska (USA again), over the Bering Strait, another possible link, to the Trans Siberian Railway, and then down to Spain, now that would be a trip and a half in one go! This would cover not only Amtrak, but international, no, intercontinental companies' railroads, pretty much almost a circumnavigation of the earth to both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, with terminals at each end in Spanish-speaking countries! While this might appear to be a pipe-dream, there have been planning efforts to connect the rail systems of North America with those of the Eurasian landmass bis the Yukon, Alaska, the Bering Strait, and eastern Siberia, though it would only happen beyond my lifetime - a pity, I'd love to travel by train for 2-3 weeks straight! But my grandchildren just might have that opportunity

Well, I take it this is mostly a joke, but for the sake of I don't know what, I'll point out that there is no rail link to Kamchatka (the Russian peninsula near Alaska). There are also no plans to build a railway (there isn't even a road) through the really mountainous, volcanic terrain and doing so would practically be impossible. The closest a railway gets is either Magadan or Sovgavan', not sure which is closer.

Are you sure there is a link to Magadan? I thought Magadan doesn't have a railroad.

Do you know if Yakutsk has a railroad? I've heard about plans to connect it.

 

[Guest]

But wait for the future! There are moves afoot in Canada and Alaska to link up woth rail from British Columbia. There was an article in Time Magazine (don't remember the issue) with the future proposals to cross the Bering Strait and link up with the Siberian rail system. Break of gauge is not a problem: the Eiropeans switch trucks under the cars, or for the Catalan Talgo, the axles autoimatically do the switch at low speed as the track gauge changes. So, if there was to be a passenger train (oreven just a through car service) from, say Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, va the USA, Canada, the proposed new link, Alaska (USA again), over the Bering Strait, another possible link, to the Trans Siberian Railway, and then down to Spain, now that would be a trip and a half in one go! This would cover not only Amtrak, but international, no, intercontinental companies' railroads, pretty much almost a circumnavigation of the earth to both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, with terminals at each end in Spanish-speaking countries! While this might appear to be a pipe-dream, there have been planning efforts to connect the rail systems of North America with those of the Eurasian landmass bis the Yukon, Alaska, the Bering Strait, and eastern Siberia, though it would only happen beyond my lifetime - a pity, I'd love to travel by train for 2-3 weeks straight! But my grandchildren just might have that opportunity

Well, I take it this is mostly a joke, but for the sake of I don't know what, I'll point out that there is no rail link to Kamchatka (the Russian peninsula near Alaska). There are also no plans to build a railway (there isn't even a road) through the really mountainous, volcanic terrain and doing so would practically be impossible. The closest a railway gets is either Magadan or Sovgavan', not sure which is closer.

Are you sure there is a link to Magadan? I thought Magadan doesn't have a railroad.

Do you know if Yakutsk has a railroad? I've heard about plans to connect it.

There is no railroad in Magadan.

But there are good news. There is a plan to build railroad to Yakutsk, then Magadan and then to Bering Strait.

Yakutsk part of the road is planned to be built by 2020.

However it's still only a plan.

If you can read Russian details are here:

http://vecherka.ykt.ru/article.asp?id=2027

 

[AmtrakWPK]

You can also use Babelfish to copy and paste the Russian text into and get an English translation. It's a little difficult to understand that way, but you still get the gist of it ok.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

 

[Guest]

You can also use Babelfish to copy and paste the Russian text into and get an English translation. It's a little difficult to understand that way, but you still get the gist of it ok.http://babelfish.altavista.com/

This is what I got:

RAILROAD FROM YAKUTSK WILL GO IN MAGADAN In the federal agency of rail transport took place the conference on the examination of proposals on the realization of the building of railroad Yakutsk - Magadan with the subsequent output to the Bering strait. At the All-Russian conference in Magadan during November 2005 the President of Russia Vladimir Putin directed the government of Russia to examine questions of the continuation of line It berkakit - Tommot - Yakutsk to Magadan, creation of united power system and motor roads, which unite Yakutiya, Magadan region and Chukotka district. The development of the transport infrastructure of the Far East is named priority state task. In light of this building of railroad line Yakutsk - Magadan with the output to the Bering strait should be considered as strategic national project and continuation of railroad line It berkakit - Tommot - Yakutsk. The leader of department Igor romashov stated that Roszheldor was intended to include project in the special-purpose program of agency for his agreement in the routine at the interdepartmental level. On the outcomes of the meeting is made the decision to create the permanent working group on the production of proposals and the development of the concept of the building of railroad Yakutsk - Magadan with the subsequent output to the Bering strait, into which will enter the representatives of the regions of the Far East, interested ministries and departments, JOINT STOCK COMPANY "RZHD". From YASIA: At the recent press conference of the President of republic Vyacheslav shtyrova was touch uponed this theme. Answering a question of the journalist OF YASIA, the chapter of republic it reported that to 2020 must be finished the building of railroad to Yakutsk and is begun the building of railroad line through Khandygu to Magadan.

And a comment from me:

I don't understand how this railroad can survive frost of -50 degrees by Celcium???