Horizon cars in Hialeah

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Miami Joe

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Aug 22, 2002
Messages
420
Location
Miami,Fla
Hi Guys!!! B)

Just a blip to let you know that the "SBS" is running again this year.

Horizon cars are starting to arrive almost daily at Hialeah. We have four on the property and expecting 16 more within the next week.

The cars are in pretty bad shape and will require alot of work before they start running to D.C. All the cars are coming in without 480 applied, so we are anticipating alot of electrical problems.

I'll try to keep everyone posted as the car repairs progress.

The 1st trip is scheduled for the 16th, and rumor has it that a diner and 2 crew dorms will be in the consist. No word yet on how many locos will be added.

B)
 
Hey Joe,

Welcome back, :) we've missed you and your train expertise around here lately. Hopefully you've solved all your computer problems and are back for good now. :D :)
 
Amfleet said:
My first qustion though. What's a 480?
480 is the voltage of the electric power, that the engine provides to the cars via HEP.

This is why he's anticipating lots of power problems on these cars.
 
Joe, nice to hear from you, hope this is a sign of things to come :)

Thanks for keeping us informed on this. How'd you manage to get back on a computer?

Are these Horizons the short distance type, or one of the few to have been rebuilt for longer distances?
 
Amfleet said:
So is that considered a lot of voltage which will require more HEP?
Well it's certainly enough voltage to electrocute you. However by comparison to a lightning bolt, or even those high-tension wires that you see around the town, no it's not a lot of voltage.

480 Volts is the standard HEP pretty much for most trains today that are pulled by a diesel engine. In fact even the electric engines on the NEC provide 480 to the cars, although the engine is pulling a lot more power off the catenary. Subway's may vary some though I think that they too provide 480 power for lights and such.
 
What exactly is the SBS, could someone give a little more background?

Who finances it?

Any photos? :unsure:
 
Viewliner said:
What exactly is the SBS, could someone give a little more background?Who finances it?

Any photos? :unsure:
Joe's using a different name than B51. Here's B51's post.

Battalion51 said:
Something I completely forgot about reminded me why they are coming down. The Safety Patrol Special is coming up here in a couple of weeks. The safey patorl special is organized by some rich guy thanking safety patrols (elementary school) for their hard work, and rewarding them with a trip to Washington. The Conductor on 91 explained the evolution of the special to me, he said it started about 10 years ago when he first came on the job and used Amfleet I Cars. The train eventually moved on to Superliner equipment, but this was discarded A) because Amtrak doesn't have the rolling stock to spare,  it was nearly impossible to get a 1000 kids upstairs with all their bags and what not. So they finally have come to Horizon equipment, which is not exactly ideal, but it suits the purpose. I will post the date of the special once I get word of it.
 
Amfleet said:
I'm still confused. Does the standard car use 480 volts of HEP?
Yes, that's correct. A standard Amtrak train car requires 480 volts of electricity to provide heat, A/C, lights, and other electrical power.

The engine which is providing HEP (Head End Power) from it's generator, is sending that 480 volts or HEP through a large cable. That cable runs from the engine and then car to car throughout the entire train.

Esentially railroad workers use, HEP and 480, as abreviations or code names that to refer to the electricity that provides power to all the cars on the train.
 
So when putting a train together you have to determine the amount of HEP needed and the amount of HEP the engine can supply. Do you know how much on average how much HEP a single locomotive can supply?
 
Amfleet said:
So when putting a train together you have to determine the amount of HEP needed and the amount of HEP the engine can supply. Do you know how much on average how much HEP a single locomotive can supply?
As far as I know all trains running behind a diesel use 480 volts of HEP. That's the standard at least here in the US. I can't speak about trains in other countries.

You also can't vary the voltage, as you would burn up the cables, not to mention that you would ruin the A/C units and probably blow out all the lights if you provided more volts than 480. If you provide less you might find that the lights still worked if the voltage didn't go too low. However, again you would ruin the A/C units and probably the heating units.

Everything on the train is designed to work off of a standard 480 volts. Yes some things do require less voltage within the car, but in those cases transformers and voltage regulators reduce or "step down the Voltage". The main cable is still carrying and providing 480 no matter what.

This is also the case for my laptop, razor and other electrical things that I might bring on the train. They all require 110 Volts; so via special wire connections, transformers, and voltage regulators in the sleeper car, the voltage is stepped down from 480 to 110 for the outlet in my room.

So to answer your question, no you don't have to calculate how many volts or how much HEP to provide. It's always 480 Volts no matter what.
 
Alright I got it. The whole train, big or small, is powered with a consistant 480 volts of HEP from the loco that travels through a cable through the train. Am I right? :unsure:
 
Amfleet said:
Alright I got it. The whole train, big or small, is powered with a consistant 480 volts of HEP from the loco that travels through a cable through the train. Am I right? :unsure:
Bingo, give the man a prize. :lol:

Next time you are at the station, look around for some big round probably 2 - 3 inch thick cables that are about 4 maybe 5 feet long. They usually have some just laying around or hanging from a rack, plus if you are fortunate enough to watch them change an engine, you can see these cables. These cables are much thicker than the air hose used for brake pressure.
 
Amfleet said:
Yes, I've seen those cables laying around. Thanks. So how bout that prize. :rolleyes: :lol:
Ok, in a few months you'll get to take your first ride on an Acela Express train. :lol: :D :)
 
Actually Amfleet...just to get the lingo exactly right....HEP stands for "Head End Power". You need 480 Volts, but it comes from your HEP (your engine).
 
Amfleet,

Here's a couple of other things about HEP. Years ago there was no electricity from the engine. If you recall some older discussions here on AU, trains used to use steam to heat the coaches. The oldest trains never had any electric in the cars at all. As we approached more modern times, then each car would have a small generator to provide electricity.

Some of the generators ran off of the steam provided by the engine. In other cases the generators were attached by gears to the cars axle, so when the train was moving you had electric power, however once it stopped off went the lights.

Now back to modern times. Each diesel engine built for passenger service in addition to the main engine, has a HPU (Head-end Power Unit), which is really a separate smaller diesel engine with it's own generator attached. The HPU is what provides the 480 volts AC HEP to the train.

There are two major reasons for the HPU; one is that you are not stealing power from the prime mover, as the main diesel engine is called. Second if the prime mover fails, depending on the circumstances of that failure, you may still be able to provide power to the coaches even if you can’t move the train.

If your train has only one engine then obviously that engine is not only moving the train, but it is also providing the HEP. However, if your train has 2 or more engines, only one engine is providing HEP. The other engines only provide additional motive power to make the train move, they don't combine with the first engine to provide the 480 volts of HEP.

The reason for this, without getting highly technical, is something called phasing. When you use AC power, or what’s called Alternating Current, essentially the power switches from negative to positive 60 times per second. It’s really more complicated than that, but for our purposes here that explanation will do. If you have more than one generator running, then it must be precisely in sync with the first generator, or properly phased as it’s called.

If it’s not, then you have big problems as one generator is sending out a positive current, on any given split second, while the other is putting out negative power. Getting two HPU’s to properly phase, is far too complicated for the limited benefit that it would provide on a train. Getting three HPU’s in phase is even tougher. So if you are on a train with three engines, only one engine’s HPU is actually running. The other two HPU’s are turned off.

If you want to better understand AC power and phases, then you can check out this page from How Stuff Works.

Normally to my knowledge, Joe may know better, usually it's the lead engine that provides the HEP. I think that it's done this way, as it's easier for the engineer to monitor the HEP and turn it on and off as needed, like when adding road railers and MHC's. However if necessary, any engine can provide HEP.

Once coming back from Florida, on the now defunct Palm, I saw this happen. We were coming through the Carolina's, when I thought that I saw some unusual black smoke coming from one of the two engines as we rounded a curve.

A minute later we lost all power on the train. Thankfully my room was not on the side of the train where the sun was, as it started to get rather warm even on my side. We ran without power for close to an hour, until we reached our next stop. Then the engineer had to walk back to the second engine to flip on it's HEP, at least that's what I'm assuming since a minute after he climbed into that second engine we had power again.

I don't know precisely what went wrong in the lead unit, but the OBSC did tell me that there were problems with that engine. I’m assuming that either the HPU generator or diesel failed, and created the smoke that I saw coming out of the lead unit. Thankfully they didn't need to cut that engine off the train and delay us.
 
Thanks for that mini lesson on HEP. Very imformtive. I remember the discussion we had on "steam heated" equipment and I learned about AC (and DC) current from 8th grade. :)
 
While we're on the subject of HEP, I think I know the answer to the question about when "Heritage Fleet" originated. "Heritage Fleet" is the term used for the cars that had undergone refurbishment, which was around the time Amfleet II's began arriving. I'm guessing then that "Streamliner" was the term used before "Heritage Fleet" for these cars. I know this thanks to info in a copy of a schedule Bill sent me introducing then new "Heritage Fleet" cars to the Silver Meteor. It was also shortly before the Silver Star got Amfleet II's.
 
Viewliner---that is about it.

BEFORE AMTRAK---ALL passenger cars made of stainLess steel or other lightweight high strength material were called streamlined cars.

An entire train made of such equipment, or almost entirely of such equipment, AND operated on a faster schedule than other trains on its route was called a "streamliner."

TODAY we have whole categores of equipment with names like Amfleet, Viewliner,Superliner, etc. THAT CONCEPT ALMOST DID NOT EXIST except for perhaps Metroliner and Talgo. Regular long distance trains were not categorized by category-of-equipment names like that. A train was a streamliner or not. Trains were usually considered streamliners if the passenger carrying cars were lightweight but the baggage and mail cars were heavyweight.

OK_What is the opposite of lightweight? It is heavyweight. Refer to the recent column in which I(and Alan B) have been talking about parlor cars on the Long Island railroad. Those were heavyweight cars , in distinction to streamlined cars. The kind of car you would usually see behind a steam engine in the movies or in a book were usually heavyweight cars. But there were exceptions to everything. In the early days of streamlining(late 30's) some trains were powered by steam but considered streamliners nonetheless.

But keep in mind I am speaking of name for the train as a whole, not a category of equipment.

Make sense? If not, you know where to find me....Look at my posting today about "Regrets" and you will see the distinction I made between streamlined TRAINS and heavyweight TRAINS.
 
Viewliner is right that "heritage" referred to the older equipment, inherited from the railroads, which was refurbished. But before that, they were not called anything-----they were just cars....just diners,coaches, sleepers etc....no need for a "model" name(like Viewliner, Amfleet, Superliner etc)

Amtrak began life with no new equipment of its own---just hand-me-downs from the railroads. It has done a beautiful job of re-equipping itself the last 30 years. I has done so along lines of equipment specifically designed for specific markets, as in high level equipment for long distance.

The railroads were completely scattered all over the country and not unified like Amtrak---they would never have gotten together and come up with uniform models as Amtrak has done. Thus there were no "concept" or "model" names for equipment before Amtrak began doing it. Keep in mind that, the further back you go, the rairoads were not just competing with different modes of travel but also with themselves.

An exception would be the Metroliners. And there was a talgo or two back then, but nothing much came of that.. There were a few short-lived experimenets kind of like that. But not in the main.

Oh yes, to their credit, the railroads DID sell Amtrak the best of their equipment....but even at that, the very newest cars would have been at least 15 years told....the oldest as much as 30.

Ok-here is kind of an exception to what I have been saying....the hi-level cars for the Santa Fe. Santa Fe bought these cars to re-equp" EL Capitan"...a couple of years later it again re-equipped "El Capitan" with new hi-levels and the old hi-levels were transferred over to the "San Francisco Chief". Those were kind of "concept"cars--the hi-levels.

Clearly, the hi-levels were forerunners of the Superliner concept cars.
 
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