How did they pick the stations?

[Alexandria Nick]

I was thinking this morning, while looking at vintage photography, and a thought came to me:

Back in 1971, there were plenty of locales that had more than one station. Presumably, trains that called at Station X and Station Y continued to do so after Amtrak Day. But as they were rescheduled, rerouted, and so on, some of those stations had to have fallen by the wayside or were relocated to new facilities. Was there a concerted effort to do so? When moves were made, how did they get made?

Mainly, my thoughts are generated from Pittsburgh. There were three stations at the time. One was a stub ended commuter station and that one went right out. That left the old PRR station and the P&LE station. PRR survived, in the end, but the P&LE station had a much better location and, frankly, is nicer overall. How did Pittsburgh end up getting saddled with a depressing little bunker with no parking, limited road access, and virtually no transit options when there's a much better extant facility a mile away?

 

[BCL]

For the most part, I think someone had to be willing to provide the station and pay for any renovation or improvements needed for Amtrak service.

I give you Oakland, California. I drive by the old 16th Street Station that served Amtrak for many years - until the Loma Prieta Earthquake did a job to it. It was built by Southern Pacific and I assume transferred to the City of Oakland once Amtrak started operating.

So by then it was obvious that there needed to be a new station. So instead one one replacement station, the Port of Oakland decided to build the Oakland-Jack London station, and City of Emervyille decides to build the Emeryville station. Seems like just one would have served the purpose, but I guess Amtrak isn't going to complain that two entities are trying to build them train stations. Strangely enough, both seem to be doing well when one could have easily been a white elephant.

 

[Anderson]

Well, in Richmond, VA there was service a Union Station and Main Street Station. I don't think Amtrak ever served Hull Street Station. Amtrak pulled out of Union Station because it was too big and the state converted it to a science museum. They pulled out of Main Street Station because:
(1) It wasn't well-located for serving A-line trains (it's on the S-line and C&O); and

(2) It was run down and got flooded during Agnes.

The result was that both stations were dumped in favor of of the current Staples Mill Road station...only for Main Street Station to be brought back about 25 years later (amid a botched attempt to do to it what was done to Washington Union Station and convert it to a mall).

Edit: Newport News is an even more amusing case. The initial station was way downtown, and Amtrak moved out of there in the 80s (IIRC) to the current station a few miles up the road. Now the state is putting together a new station another few miles up the tracks, since the current station is swamped and has no room for expansion.

 

[Bob Dylan]

In my old Hometown of San Marcos, Texas, there were Two RRs (MoPac/MKT) with 2 Main Lines and 2 Stations! Once D-Day happened and Amtrak began, the Katy Station was Sold by the RR and Moved and Became a Restaurant/Bar! The MoPac Station (now UP) was Torn Down and the Old REA Express Building next Door became the "Temporary" Train Station. In 1977 A Shed with Benches was Built on the Site of the Old MoPac Station (Paid for by the Federal Govt. and Built by Job Corps Students) and served as the RR Station for 15 years! The REA Building was converted to a Donut Shop and is still operating!

In 1992 the City of San Marcos, in conjunction with Amtrak and UP ,(which now owned Both Old RRs) built an Intermodel Station next to the Old Katy Mainline to serve Greyhound and Mexican LD Busses as well as the Local Bus System. A new Shed was Built with a Short Platform 100 feet away from the Intermodel Station (Unstaffed by Amtrak)and Now Serves as the Amtrak Station for the Once in Each Direction Daily Texas Eagles!!!

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak operated to the same stations that the trains that continued to operate from May 1, 1971 had operated to the day before. With regard to Pittsburgh, the Broadway Limited and the National Limited continued to operate via Penn Central's from Pennsylvannia Railroad line and continued to call the Penn Station at Grant and Liberty. B&O commuter trains continued to operate out of the former B&O Station. I am not sure if P&LE still had a commuter train out of their Smithfield Street Station when Amtrak started, but the B&O trains that had operated through the P&LE station ended on April 30, 1971. Later when the PRR line from Chicago to Pittsburgh was downgraded, the Broadway Limited changed to the B&O line from Chicago to Pittsburgh. Apparently there was a connection so the train continued to use the Penn Station. It got to be too expensive for Amtrak to use the entire Penn Station so the small facility that is close by was built. That happened in a lot of cities. In Cincinnati, Amtrak vacated the beautiful Union Terminal because they couldn't justify the cost. They built a small facility called River Road Station which was very out of the way. Later the City of Cincinnati gave Amtrak some incentive to move back to Union Terminal. By that time only the thrice weekly Cardinal served Cincinnati. In Jacksonville where I live now, Amtrak abandoned the Union Terminal early on around 1/1/1974 for the Clifford Lane Station in nowhere land by a Railroad Yard. There is talk of moving back to Union Terminal but it is now a Convention Autotorium so no place to service passenger trains.

 

[JayPea]

Spokane had three main downtown stations, 1)the ex-NP station that Amtrak uses today and has used since day 1 of Amtrak, 2) Union Station, which served the Union Pacific and Milwaukee railroads, and 3) the Great Northern Station, which served not only the GN but the SP&S as well. There were also a 2 stations northeast of downtown Spokane, in what's known as Hillyard. These stations were small suburban stops and served the GN.

Amtrak used the old NP station from the beginning for one simple reason: Union Station, which was still used for passenger service on the UP until A-Day, and the ex-GN station, which was used by Burlington Northern after the merger of the GN, NP, and SP&S lines, were slated for demolition as part of the clean-up of downtown Spokane, in preparation for the World's Fair that was held in Spokane, Expo '74. The NP tracks were several blocks away from the site and thus it was that station and that route that was used for Amtrak. Part of the reason, in fact, for the GN, NP, and SP&S merger (and no, I'm not forgetting the CB&Q, also part of the merger, but in terms of Spokane, it's not part of the conversation) was so that the BN could consolidate their trackage through downtown Spokane and eliminate the need for the ex-GN/SP&S trackage through downtown. The UP and Milwaukee lines were also rerouted onto the NP trackage as well. The two Hillyard stations still exist today: One was relocated and is now a private residence, and the other was also relocated and was, until the business shut down, a bar/cafe.

There is one part of the old Great Northern station still standing: the Clock Tower, now the focal point of Spokane's Riverfront Park, site of the World's Fair. IMHO, and ONLY IMHO, either of the two demolished downtown Spokane stations was more attractive than the NP was. At the time of A-day, the NP depot was kind of a dump compared to the other two. Several extensive remodels since then have made the Spokane Amtrak station much more attractive.

 

[Bronzeman]

A bit more history on Amtrak and Cincinnati Union Terminal. Amtrak used CUT after A-day for the George Washington and the James Whitcomb Riley until October 29, 1972. The huge expenses associated with operating CUT (which features a semi-dome headhouse 180 feet wide and 106 feet high) doubtless prompted Amtrak to move to the horribly located River Road Amshack. Meanwhile CUT was unsuccessfully converted into a shopping mall which opened in 1980. The last tenant left in 1985. In 1986 local voters passed a bond issue to fund restoration of CUT and repurposing as a museum center, which opened in 1990. Amtrak returned on July 29, 1991. Jphjaxfl could well be correct that the City offered Amtrak an incentive to return though the decision should have been a no brainer (magnificent building, free 24 hour security, ample parking, better location, etc.). Although the station proper (as contrasted with the Museum Center) is open daily from 11pm to 6:30 am, the thrice weekly Cardinal only calls (both directions) Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

 

[jis]

Amtrak operated to the same stations that the trains that continued to operate from May 1, 1971 had operated to the day before. With regard to Pittsburgh, the Broadway Limited and the National Limited continued to operate via Penn Central's from Pennsylvannia Railroad line and continued to call the Penn Station at Grant and Liberty. B&O commuter trains continued to operate out of the former B&O Station. I am not sure if P&LE still had a commuter train out of their Smithfield Street Station when Amtrak started, but the B&O trains that had operated through the P&LE station ended on April 30, 1971.

But wasn't the National Limited originally a B&O train? I thought it was Amtrak that changed its routing onto PRR via Harrisburg. The real National Limited came to Pittsburgh via Cumberland. But maybe root cause of the change was the elimination of the Panhandle Line out of Pittsburgh. I don't remember the exact sequence.
Actually when they restored service of the Capitol Limited via Cumberland to Pittsburgh, for several months getting the Cap into Pittsburgh Penn Station required a reverse move and was a real pain. This ended when finally a critical crossover was put in place.

Later when the PRR line from Chicago to Pittsburgh was downgraded, the Broadway Limited changed to the B&O line from Chicago to Pittsburgh. Apparently there was a connection so the train continued to use the Penn Station.

There wasn't. The connection was built by Conrail as a part of the deal to downgrade the Fort Wayne Line. When the Broadway was moved to B&O west of Pittsburgh, it involved building a crossover from Conrail (old Pennsy) to B&O near New Castle. So even after the move, the Broadway left Pittsburgh on the ex-Pennsy Conrail, the same route that the Cap takes to Cleveland (and before that the Broadway took to Fort Wayne). It crossed over to B&O/CSX at New Castle.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak operated to the same stations that the trains that continued to operate from May 1, 1971 had operated to the day before. With regard to Pittsburgh, the Broadway Limited and the National Limited continued to operate via Penn Central's from Pennsylvannia Railroad line and continued to call the Penn Station at Grant and Liberty. B&O commuter trains continued to operate out of the former B&O Station. I am not sure if P&LE still had a commuter train out of their Smithfield Street Station when Amtrak started, but the B&O trains that had operated through the P&LE station ended on April 30, 1971.

But wasn't the National Limited originally a B&O train? I thought it was Amtrak that changed its routing onto PRR via Harrisburg. The real National Limited came to Pittsburgh via Cumberland. But maybe root cause of the change was the elimination of the Panhandle Line out of Pittsburgh. I don't remember the exact sequence.
Actually when they restored service of the Capitol Limited via Cumberland to Pittsburgh, for several months getting the Cap into Pittsburgh Penn Station required a reverse move and was a real pain. This ended when finally a critical crossover was put in place.

Later when the PRR line from Chicago to Pittsburgh was downgraded, the Broadway Limited changed to the B&O line from Chicago to Pittsburgh. Apparently there was a connection so the train continued to use the Penn Station.

There wasn't. The connection was built by Conrail as a part of the deal to downgrade the Fort Wayne Line. When the Broadway was moved to B&O west of Pittsburgh, it involved building a crossover from Conrail (old Pennsy) to B&O near New Castle. So even after the move, the Broadway left Pittsburgh on the ex-Pennsy Conrail, the same route that the Cap takes to Cleveland (and before that the Broadway took to Fort Wayne). It crossed over to B&O/CSX at New Castle.

The B&O's National Limited operated Washington to St. Louis via Cumberland and Cincinnati so did not serve Pittsburgh. Amtrak's National Limited from Washington to Kansas City operated via Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and Indianapolis and did operate via Pennsylvania's Panhandle Route from Pittsburgh to Steubenville and Columbus and Dayton,Oh. It operated on a schedule similar to that of the Spirit of St. Louis which had operated from New York to St. Louis through Pittsbugh and Indianapolis through April 30, 1971.

 

[crescent2]

Although I know those more knowledgeable have posted the info on AU before, I don't recall the details or reasons for it. But Atlanta wound up with the little station remaining and the bigger one closed. It's now gone. Atlanta's little station is very historic, but surprisingly small for such a large city. Of course, it only serves the Crescent.

 

[zephyr17]

Peachtree Station was a suburban station for Atlanta, not the main one, which is why it is so small. Southern quit serving the big downtown Terminal Station in 1970, before Amtrak at all, and well before Southern turned over their passenger service to Amtrak in 1979.

The reasons were straight economic, it cost a lot less to maintain a large station. And since it was Southern's decision about Southern's stations serving Southern's trains, they had complete authority to do it and so spend less of their money. Amtrak came later and was stuck with a fait accompli.

 

[zephyr17]

In Chicago, much service changed stations right on Amday. Particularly the former Santa Fe trains. Santa Fe used Dearborn Station, and Amtrak moved those trains to Union Station on Day 1. The last train arrived at Dearborn May 2, 1971, which was the last eastbound Santa Fe Super Chief/El Capitain which had departed Los Angeles April 30. The departures switched May 1.

The trains on the IC continued to use Central Station until 1972, when they were moved to CUS.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Although I know those more knowledgeable have posted the info on AU before, I don't recall the details or reasons for it. But Atlanta wound up with the little station remaining and the bigger one closed. It's now gone. Atlanta's little station is very historic, but surprisingly small for such a large city. Of course, it only serves the Crescent.

Keep in mind that there were two downtown stations in Atlanta----- Union Station as well as Terminal Station. The trains that served Union Station were not related to routes like the Crescent.

On a personal note to Crescent2 did you see my reply the other day showing which trains your mother rode?

 

[railiner]

Surprised no one mentioned Amtrak moving out of Grand Central Terminal / New York, when the Empire Connection was built....the reason is well enough known, then to elaborate here....

Does this discussion also include moves that Amtrak made, like abandoning Capitol Beltway in favor of nearby New Carrollton? Or Aurora, in favor of Naperville, etc.?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Does this discussion also include moves that Amtrak made, like abandoning Capitol Beltway in favor of nearby New Carrollton?

Growing up in the area, my view is that New Carrollton simply replaced the Cap. Beltway Station, which always had a temporary feeling to it. To me the location was the same, just the name changed, the facility improved, and connections to Metro were made.

 

[crescent2]

Zephyr & Bill: Thanks, I knew you guys would know what happened in ATL!

Bill: No, I didn't. I'll go back and find that. Thank you!!

 

[Ryan]

Does this discussion also include moves that Amtrak made, like abandoning Capitol Beltway in favor of nearby New Carrollton?

Growing up in the area, my view is that New Carrollton simply replaced the Cap. Beltway Station, which always had a temporary feeling to it. To me the location was the same, just the name changed, the facility improved, and connections to Metro were made.

I agree, they're so close together that I consider them the "same".

 

[crescent2]

Bill: Went back to the other thread and saw your detailed info. Thanks so very much! My first train trip was from ATL to Chattanooga (late 60's/early 70's?-- I was young!) so thanks for that info, too.

Ryan: Your in-laws? It really is a small world! Yes, it's too bad you can't get off the train on East Broad St. any more, and I can't get on.

(I know I'm replying on the wrong thread, but this one is still current!)

 

[railiner]

Does this discussion also include moves that Amtrak made, like abandoning Capitol Beltway in favor of nearby New Carrollton?

Growing up in the area, my view is that New Carrollton simply replaced the Cap. Beltway Station, which always had a temporary feeling to it. To me the location was the same, just the name changed, the facility improved, and connections to Metro were made.

Okay. I agree on that one...but in the case of Aurora and Naperville, they're about 10 miles apart.....

 

[GoldenSpike]

In Chicago, much service changed stations right on Amday. Particularly the former Santa Fe trains. Santa Fe used Dearborn Station, and Amtrak moved those trains to Union Station on Day 1. The last train arrived at Dearborn May 2, 1971, which was the last eastbound Santa Fe Super Chief/El Capitain which had departed Los Angeles April 30. The departures switched May 1.
The trains on the IC continued to use Central Station until 1972, when they were moved to CUS.

The cover of the July issue of Trains magazine shows an April 30, 1971 photo of the last SF El Capitan waiting to depart Dearborn station as a SF Chief arrives.

 

[George Harris]

Peachtree Station was a suburban station for Atlanta, not the main one, which is why it is so small. Southern quit serving the big downtown Terminal Station in 1970, before Amtrak at all, and well before Southern turned over their passenger service to Amtrak in 1979.
The reasons were straight economic, it cost a lot less to maintain a large station. And since it was Southern's decision about Southern's stations serving Southern's trains, they had complete authority to do it and so spend less of their money. Amtrak came later and was stuck with a fait accompli.

I did not know who's post to copy in here to expand on this subject so I just picked this one.

Back when there were multiple trains through Terminal Station, only one Southern Railway left by going out the same way it came in. All others either terminated or went through. The one train that had to do the reversal was, you guessed it!, the Southerner, now operating under the name of the Crescent. There was one other train that went out the same way it came in, and that was Seaboard's Silver Comet which was their New York - Washington - Atlanta - Birmingham through train, but this train did not last to A-day.

There were two other through Southern Railway trains on the line to/from Washington, but they both went out in a southerly/southwesternly direction on the A&WP - WRA - L&N. These were the Crescent, the true one, and the Piedmont Limited. There was also another through Southern Railway train on the Atlanta-Birmingham line, but that was the Kansas City Florida Special which went south out of Atlanta to Macon and Jacksonville.

Once all these were gone, Terminal Station became a white elephant in size and it position favoring the through trains ceased as they were no longer there. Now, by going to Peachtree Station the backup move was eliminated and the maintenance and TAXES on the massive downtown station could be eliminated.

 

[Joeker]

Sometimes its a combination of state/ local interests moving a station rather than Amtrak.

When I began riding to Syracuse from NYC in pre Amtrak days, we would stop at the old Albany Union station in downtown Albany

across the river from Rensselaer. This move was necessary because of the construction of Interstate 787 bridge which needed the spaced occupied by the station and its yards. Then the stop was moved to the current location in 1968 but at the "temporary' station.

The current new station replaced the two former "temporary" stations

Also, the old Schenectady station stop was discontinued in 1970 in favor of Colonie ( near the University of Albany), because the original station building was deteriorating and became unsafe for use. The Penn Central RR closed it and sold it to the city of Schenectady and it was demolished. In 1979 the stop was reinstated in a new building at the original site in downtown Schenectady and paid for in part by State of New York.

From 1964 Syracuse' station was at East Syracuse near the DeWitt freight yards, due to the fact the existing NY Central RR roadbed became the foundation for Interstate Rt 690, and in 1999 the station moved to the current location near Carousel Mall in the Regional Transportation Center.

 

[jis]

Schenectady is about to undergo yet another reconstruction at the same location including the addition of high level platform. It will be carried out by the same CDTA that built the new ALB station.