How does Amtrak determine scheduling?

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Posted this elsewhere but decided it warranted its own thread....

Ok 6 minutes late not bad!

and at the next stop....

Woah! 36 minutes early?!?! This train gained 42 minutes between TCL and BHM!

Tuscaloosa and Birmingham are only 55 miles apart, and the tracks are in good condition so completing the trip in 63 minutes should be the norm, just an avg speed of 52.4 mph. So why does Amtrak schedule this segment of 55 miles for an hour and 45 minutes of travel time? that's only averaging 31.4mph to be on schedule!

But then of course things like this happen....

So who knows what they're basing the schedules on.

BTW, How is it possible for them to arrive in NYP 71 minutes early without exceeding the speed limit of 110mph for LD's? If my math is correct they would have to average about 71mph to complete the 225 miles in 190 minutes, I know the NEC is fast but is it really that fast?

And if anyone else has other examples of schedule oddities post them....

 

[wrjensen]

BTW, How is it possible for them to arrive in NYP 71 minutes early without exceeding the speed limit of 110mph for LD's? If my math is correct they would have to average about 71mph to complete the 225 miles in 190 minutes, I know the NEC is fast but is it really that fast?

Is there a 110 MPH speed limit for LD trains even on NEC? I was passed by a LD (my guess it was the Carolinian) I was pushing 80 and it passed me like I was standing still.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

BTW, How is it possible for them to arrive in NYP 71 minutes early without exceeding the speed limit of 110mph for LD's? If my math is correct they would have to average about 71mph to complete the 225 miles in 190 minutes, I know the NEC is fast but is it really that fast?

Is there a 110 MPH speed limit for LD trains even on NEC? I was passed by a LD (my guess it was the Carolinian) I was pushing 80 and it passed me like I was standing still.

As far as I know the Heritage Baggage and Diners as well as the Viewliners are limited to 110mph.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

As far as I know the Heritage Baggage and Diners as well as the Viewliners are limited to 110mph.

I believe the P42s are also limited to 110 MPH (which is relevant if there happen to be a shortage of electric locomotives on some rare occasion, and the diesel/electric swap is done at Philadelphia instead of Washington).

 

[Long Train Runnin']

BTW, How is it possible for them to arrive in NYP 71 minutes early without exceeding the speed limit of 110mph for LD's? If my math is correct they would have to average about 71mph to complete the 225 miles in 190 minutes, I know the NEC is fast but is it really that fast?

Is there a 110 MPH speed limit for LD trains even on NEC? I was passed by a LD (my guess it was the Carolinian) I was pushing 80 and it passed me like I was standing still.

As far as I know the Heritage Baggage and Diners as well as the Viewliners are limited to 110mph.

I don't think Viewliners speed is limited to 110mph when I was on the Cardinal when the Conductor asked our speed the Engineer said 115 MPH. So I'm not sure if that is in fact the limit. The NEC is fast though well for the U.S. and I can see those times being possiable.

(Didn't Check Spelling)

 

[Rafi]

If I'm not mistaken, only certain Private Cars and Baggage cars are limited to 110 MPH on the NEC today; Viewliners are capable of 125 MPH.

Rafi

 

[Trogdor]

For the most part, Amtrak's long-distance schedules are based on how long it would take an average train to operate from city to city with no, or minimal, delays, plus passenger loading/unloading time at the following station.

However, delays do occur (obviously), and so Amtrak adds padding into certain stops so that the train can get back on time, or at least be less late. This padding usually occurs at crew change locations (where it's more important to be on time), places where locomotives are fueled or any switching might occur, large cities in the middle of the route, or any other place where Amtrak feels it is necessary to add more than the minimum running time. Amtrak also usually puts extra time (anywhere from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on the route and its typical reliability) at the final station.

If the train managed to make it through without any delays, then it will get to those places early, and sit for time.

On the NEC, Amtrak's long-distance trains are receive-only southbound, and discharge-only northbound. Since the trains aren't taking on any passengers, there is no need to wait for time once they get to Washington, DC. Therefore, once they change engines, and unload the passengers and baggage, they can leave, even if they are early. From that point on, they just run it out without any regard for the schedule. Once the passengers and bags are off, they leave. That's how they can get over an hour early.

 

[haolerider]

For the most part, Amtrak's long-distance schedules are based on how long it would take an average train to operate from city to city with no, or minimal, delays, plus passenger loading/unloading time at the following station.
However, delays do occur (obviously), and so Amtrak adds padding into certain stops so that the train can get back on time, or at least be less late. This padding usually occurs at crew change locations (where it's more important to be on time), places where locomotives are fueled or any switching might occur, large cities in the middle of the route, or any other place where Amtrak feels it is necessary to add more than the minimum running time. Amtrak also usually puts extra time (anywhere from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on the route and its typical reliability) at the final station.

If the train managed to make it through without any delays, then it will get to those places early, and sit for time.

On the NEC, Amtrak's long-distance trains are receive-only southbound, and discharge-only northbound. Since the trains aren't taking on any passengers, there is no need to wait for time once they get to Washington, DC. Therefore, once they change engines, and unload the passengers and baggage, they can leave, even if they are early. From that point on, they just run it out without any regard for the schedule. Once the passengers and bags are off, they leave. That's how they can get over an hour early.

The schedules are worked out in a very complicated manner with input from the operating divisions, to be sure there is time for a crew change and re-fueling and most importantly with the host railroad. Any change must be approved by the host railroad and be able to work with their schedule. That is generally the reason you may see some times between cities that may seem either too long or to have too much padding. It allows for the freight congestion to be taken into consideration.

The host railroads own the track and control the game, so scheduling is not at the whim of Amtrak, but the host railroad. For example, everyone complains about a set of equipment sitting in NOL from the Sunset Limited and wants Amtrak to change the days of the week to allow that set to be free for use elsewhere. Amtrak would like nothing better, however the reality is that UP will not allow the change of days, so the situation stays the same as it is now until UP decides to approve the move.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In addition to the very good posts by Robert Madison and Haolerider and others, there is another point.

Don't fine tune this too much but most long distance trains today operate on a kinda, sorta, halfway similar time of day that they have run through the years since well before Amtrak. This would be sort of true for CZ,EB,SWC,the Crescent(then known as the Southerner, not to be confused with the Southern Crescent). It would not work so well with the Sunset, for example.

This is an over-simplification but most long distance routes had more than one train on them in pre-Amtrak days so there was to some extent greater balance as to the time of day trains rate. The trains we have inherited today still in some cases operate within the same window that made more sense when there were more trains.

This is an angle which is in addition to the padding, servicing stops. stops-only-to-discharge etc noted in earlier posts.

But then there is this: some pre-Amtrak passenger trains were scheduled more for the convenience of the U.S. Mail than for passengers. Though that is not true of any which survived to the present.

 

[George Harris]

But then there is this: some pre-Amtrak passenger trains were scheduled more for the convenience of the U.S. Mail than for passengers. Though that is not true of any which survived to the present.

Which is why when you look at an old Official Guide you will see lots of slow overnight trains that had 10:00pm or later departures and 5:30am to 6:30am arrivals. The early arrival, in particular gave the post office time to work the mail for delivery on the day of arrival. Many of these trains carried only one coach and very few passengers in their last years. Up until the early to mid 1950's a lot of these trains carried a sleeper for the conveninece of the person making a business trip. A lot of the time there would be a note that the sleeper could be occupied to a more rational time, usually 30 minutes to an hour before departure and to something like 7:30 to 8:00am.

 

[BobWeaver]

On the NEC, Amtrak's long-distance trains are receive-only southbound, and discharge-only northbound. Since the trains aren't taking on any passengers, there is no need to wait for time once they get to Washington, DC. Therefore, once they change engines, and unload the passengers and baggage, they can leave, even if they are early. From that point on, they just run it out without any regard for the schedule. Once the passengers and bags are off, they leave. That's how they can get over an hour early.

In addition to this, there is a large amount of padding near the end of the run so that the train can be considered "on time" into its final destination.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

If I'm not mistaken, only certain Private Cars and Baggage cars are limited to 110 MPH on the NEC today; Viewliners are capable of 125 MPH.
Rafi

I do not know much about locomotive or equipment speed capabilities but I know this for sure:

On December 31,1983, the northbound Crescent did make 120 mph several times from WAS to NYC. This was in the type of equipment which became known as "heritage" in more recent years.

I was on it going to ring in the New Year (1984) from Times Square. I knew what I was doing, I was timing the markers with my watch and we did indeed make 120 mph for spurts. It was such a let down when we slowed down 110 or 90,I quickly lost interest. I had not set out to check the speeds. Rather, I just happened to notice that there was a certain"roar" under the train, and this made me curious.

I have mentioned this on this forum before and I suspect Alan remembers it and the type of locomotive. (I am not a locomotvie expert)

 

[jis]

I do not know much about locomotive or equipment speed capabilities but I know this for sure:
On December 31,1983, the northbound Crescent did make 120 mph several times from WAS to NYC. This was in the type of equipment which became known as "heritage" in more recent years.

I was on it going to ring in the New Year (1984) from Times Square. I knew what I was doing, I was timing the markers with my watch and we did indeed make 120 mph for spurts. It was such a let down when we slowed down 110 or 90,I quickly lost interest. I had not set out to check the speeds. Rather, I just happened to notice that there was a certain"roar" under the train, and this made me curious.

I have mentioned this on this forum before and I suspect Alan remembers it and the type of locomotive. (I am not a locomotvie expert)

Heritage cars we always officially restricted to 110mph under Amtrak AFAICR. Before the Colonial collision Amtrak was known to overspeed with heritage equipment in consist. As a matter of fact the Colonial involved in the crash at Gunpow was overspeeding at 128mph with a heritage car in consist, and NTSB dinged Amtrak for that. Since then things have been tightened up considerably and it is quite unusual for Amtrak to overspeed with heritage cars in consist these days.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I tend to assume that in many cases, the schedules were set decades ago, and only get changed if someone at Amtrak thinks there is some specific problem that they ought to fix by adjusting the schedules.

Some of the Northeast Regional trains are scheduled to be faster than others, and it wouldn't surprise me if the slower ones used to carry mail cars, and now that there are no mail cars, perhaps nobody has thought about tightening up the schedules. On the other hand, the slower Northeast Regional trains can probably also carry 110 MPH private cars this way.

 

[JAChooChoo]

I tend to assume that in many cases, the schedules were set decades ago, and only get changed if someone at Amtrak thinks there is some specific problem that they ought to fix by adjusting the schedules.

Actually, schedules are adjusted at least twice a year, and often quarterly on the NEC.

Schedules are timed exactly to the minute, with the exception of trains making Discharge Only stops.

 

[PRR 60]

I tend to assume that in many cases, the schedules were set decades ago, and only get changed if someone at Amtrak thinks there is some specific problem that they ought to fix by adjusting the schedules.
Some of the Northeast Regional trains are scheduled to be faster than others, and it wouldn't surprise me if the slower ones used to carry mail cars, and now that there are no mail cars, perhaps nobody has thought about tightening up the schedules. On the other hand, the slower Northeast Regional trains can probably also carry 110 MPH private cars this way.

The NEC schedule is a complex choreography between Amtrak, the commuter railroads, and some serious capacity constraints: particularly the two single-track Hudson River tunnels and the squeeze for platform slots at New York Penn. Throw some major construction projects impacting track availability into the mix, and the task becomes very difficult. The relatively good performance record of the NEC is evidence that they do the job of scheduling pretty well.

The schedule is reworked several times a year to meet changing conditions and requirements. Monday (10/27), for example, some (but not all) of the time added last spring to the Acela schedules due to the New Jersey tie replacement project is being pulled out. It's two minutes here, and three minutes there, but when you're trying to get the all the northbound New York bound trains into the tunnel at specific times and in a certain order, a minute or two really matters. It does not always work, but when it does it is kind of like magic.

 

[zoltan]

In addition to this, there is a large amount of padding near the end of the run so that the train can be considered "on time" into its final destination.

This is a very British Trick; privatised operators in Britain are fond of adding large amounts of time to the end of a schedule so that their performance figures look favourable.

 

[Tony]

How does Amtrak actually calculate delays?

Here is just one example (of several I found) for the Vermonter arriving at NYP.

My arithmetic skills tell me the train arrived 11 minutes late, not the 3

Amtrak claims.

 

[PRR 60]

How does Amtrak actually calculate delays?
Here is just one example (of several I found) for the Vermonter arriving at NYP.

My arithmetic skills tell me the train arrived 11 minutes late, not the 3

Amtrak claims.

You've run into an interesting glitch in the Amtrak train status feature that surfaced when the feature was "enhanced" a couple of months ago.

At a train's final stop the feature shows the correct arrival status (minutes early or late). However, for a train running through a stop, once the train departs, the system inexplicably changes the arrival minutes late or early to the departure minutes late or early. So, a train arriving at a stop 10 minutes early then leaving on the scheduled time will, once the train leaves, be shown as having arrived on-time. Similarly, if a train arrives at an extended stop say 20 minutes late but then leaves on-time, it will be shown as having arrived on-time.

In both cases, the actual arrival time shown are correct (assuming they were accurate when submitted), but the arrival minutes or late are not.

 

[Tony]

Ah, so for my Vermonter example, even though the train arrived 11 minutes late, it departed again only 3 minutes late (cutting down its in-station time by 8 minutes).