how much in peril is the Viewliner II order?

[AlanB]

There's something odd about this, though; it can't just be sheer number of people on the train. Most of the LD trains, Auto Train and LSL apart, aren't really *that* much longer than the Acelas. Surely more than 30 people are using the WiFi on the Acela. I can imagine that a less dense cellphone network would get overloaded more quickly; perhaps that's the real issue.

Yes, I left out an important part; my apologies.

Up in the NE the data signals by and large average 3 to 4 bars on one's cell phone, as do the signals for the cellular modems. Splitting that bandwidth among 300 is doable, although even then with 3G things can almost grind to a halt. Try doing that with a modem that's only getting 1 or 2 bars and it's unusable when splitting the signal for so many users.

I just did the AT last summer and I was able to get tolerable service tethering my iPhone to my laptop. But I sure wouldn't want to split the signal that I was getting with 10 other people, much less a hundred.

 

[Acela150]

Alan If I had to take a wild guess on how LD trains would handle WiFi wouldn't the feed come via Satellite? Since the cellular network wouldn't work.

I'm not at all sure if that will be the answer. Hard to keep the dish focused in the right direction, and one has to worry about where you mount the dish as you don't want it scrapped off by a bridge or a tunnel.

Not to mention, satellite is line of sight only, so if there are trees in the way, no internet for you.

I wonder how big a deal that would be? We have satellite radio in our car and while there can be occasional dead areas, by and large the reception is fine. Antennas for aircraft satellite internet are small uni-directional radomes mounted on the top of the fuselage, not dishes.

That's a good point. I used to have Sirus/XM in my car and would very rarely lose reception. I think that the Sat Radio antennas used on a car could be a good option for trains. If Amtrak would go that way.

 

[MattW]

There's a difference though in transmitting audio vs data. A little bit of data lost probably wouldn't even be noticed with the radio, but computers require data retransmission if lost or corrupted. Also, some satellite radio service has land-based repeaters to increase coverage in urban areas for instance.

 

[afigg]

That's a good point. I used to have Sirus/XM in my car and would very rarely lose reception. I think that the Sat Radio antennas used on a car could be a good option for trains. If Amtrak would go that way.

There is a HUGE difference between a satellite radio receiver and a 2 way data link with an uplink feed to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit. Or a two way link to a low earth orbiting satellite network.
A satellite link on a train would utilize a phased array antenna with a electronically steerable beam. A steerable transmit beam. Phased array antennas with active element transmitters used to be bleeping expensive technology; I guess they would be cheaper now. But Amtrak has an Amtrak budget, not a Department of Defense budget.

 

[montana mike]

When I was in DOD I was the PCO for this type of gear for the US military. It was very expensive then, but not now. It is available commercial technology that is used by many firms worldwide. Yes, it comes at a cost, but nowhere near what the cost was when we rolled it out for the troops 20+ years ago.

As I have said before in this forum, my "stop-gap" measure on my many rides on Amtrak LD trains over the past couple years has been to tether my iPhone to my Macbook and with the exception of a few spots in eastern MT (where almost no one lives), national parks (where they generally don't have towers) and tunnels I have good connectivity, good enough to upload lots of data most of my trips.

 

[dlagrua]

I believe that I offered a solution in another post; use your own 4G phone with a repeater amplifier (provided that the manufacturer can guarantee non-interference with other passengers cell phones). Then if you wish to use your laptop just set up your cell phone for internet sharing as a personal wireless hot spot. You can do this trick without a cell phone amplifier but in the fringe areas it would help.

I am waiting to see what kind of FCC standards can or will be applied to the cell amplifier devices before I decide on which one I will use. Currently the Wilson Sleek company is working with the FCC to overcome the interference problems associated with cell phone amplifiers so lets just see what results before we all go out and buy one.

As for WiFi on Amtrak LD routes, I would agree that we are years away. The DIY solution seems like the only option at this point.

 

[PRR 60]

The Thalys high speed trains in Europe use satellite-based internet access.

Thalys Wifi

And, yes, the antennas are a bit more complex than what is needed for satellite radio. However, the usability of satellite radio in cars shows the line-of-sight issue is not as big a deal as it might seem.

As for cost, installing a satellite system like Row44 on an aircraft costs about $200,000 per plane. A terrestrial system like Gogo costs about $100,000 per plane. It's not cheap.

Here's a neat time-lapse video of a Row44 installation on a SWA 737-700 (skip the ad after 5 seconds):



Can't you just see a Superliner in the shop getting an antenna now? Ah...., maybe not.

 

[Nathanael]

There's something odd about this, though; it can't just be sheer number of people on the train. Most of the LD trains, Auto Train and LSL apart, aren't really *that* much longer than the Acelas. Surely more than 30 people are using the WiFi on the Acela. I can imagine that a less dense cellphone network would get overloaded more quickly; perhaps that's the real issue.

Yes, I left out an important part; my apologies.

Up in the NE the data signals by and large average 3 to 4 bars on one's cell phone, as do the signals for the cellular modems. Splitting that bandwidth among 300 is doable, although even then with 3G things can almost grind to a halt. Try doing that with a modem that's only getting 1 or 2 bars and it's unusable when splitting the signal for so many users.

I just did the AT last summer and I was able to get tolerable service tethering my iPhone to my laptop. But I sure wouldn't want to split the signal that I was getting with 10 other people, much less a hundred.

Aha. So Amtrak probably could get decent WiFi from NY-Albany, Albany-Buffalo, and Buffalo-Niagara Falls (dense with cell towers), but then there might be a problem further west on the Lake Shore Limited. Though since the NY Central Main Line parallels I-90, it actualy might have 4-bar cell service the entire way (I don't think I've ever had my cellphone cut out along that route).

Obviously there are much larger problems getting service west of Chicago.

 

[AlanB]

Aha. So Amtrak probably could get decent WiFi from NY-Albany, Albany-Buffalo, and Buffalo-Niagara Falls (dense with cell towers), but then there might be a problem further west on the Lake Shore Limited. Though since the NY Central Main Line parallels I-90, it actualy might have 4-bar cell service the entire way (I don't think I've ever had my cellphone cut out along that route).

I've had some drops running across Indiana, but otherwise things tend to be decent.