how much in peril is the Viewliner II order?

[jis]

Just throwing this out, has there ever been any talk from Amtrak about using the viewliner option on Superliner trains via the transdorm?

I can see how it would be a bad deal passengers but they could use it for the crew and it would free up some regular sleeper space.

Only for through New York cars on the Capitol. Otherwise there are no surplus Viewliners around that are not already needed on single level trains.

Well, I think the idea expressed was to grab the extra 15 Viewliners and use them on mixed-level trains. The biggest problem with that, I believe, is if you end up with a bilevel diner and single-level sleepers, which would force all of your sleeper passengers to march up the stairs.

Haven't heard that idea from Amtrak as far as I can tell. That has been suggested only for the New York runthroughs in the Cap and not for anything else. I don't think Amtrak wants to mix single level with bi-levels if they can help it, since the Transdorms, unlike the transition coaches in the Hi-Level Santa Fe fleet are noit really designed to have passengers walking through them.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

No one is going to pull the plug on an executed contract-the money has already been spent.

Tell that to the Wisconsin TALGO plant.

Good point. Even supposedly "pro-business" Scott Walker [R] walked away from a signed "spent money" contract.

While I don't understand the particulars, and I freely admit that I'm actually quite confused as to how this is possible, apparently eTicketing made things harder and more confusing for Amtrak. It is for that reason that they changed the onboard upgrade policy a month or so ago, so as to discourage people from waiting until they're onboard to do the upgrade.

Does this mean it's easier to upgrade now that the conductors no longer have to anguish over the possibility of the customer potentially benefiting from the delay?

I think the idea expressed was to grab the extra 15 Viewliners and use them on mixed-level trains. The biggest problem with that, I believe, is if you end up with a bilevel diner and single-level sleepers, which would force all of your sleeper passengers to march up the stairs.

Why do they have to march? Oddly enough if you're on the lower level you already have to take the stairs as it is. Those who can't manage to walk up a quarter flight of stairs, which may include those occupying the disabled compartment, have their food brought to them. No marching, no beatings, and nobody goes to bed hungry.

I don't think Amtrak wants to mix single level with bi-levels if they can help it, since the Transdorms, unlike the transition coaches in the Hi-Level Santa Fe fleet are noit really designed to have passengers walking through them.

I thought I read on this very forum that the original assumption was that single and dual level passenger cars may be connected from time to time and that the transition cars would make it possible to move between them. I don't think Amtrak has actually used them this way, but I still don't understand what's stopping them, at least on any technical level.

 

[AlanB]

While I don't understand the particulars, and I freely admit that I'm actually quite confused as to how this is possible, apparently eTicketing made things harder and more confusing for Amtrak. It is for that reason that they changed the onboard upgrade policy a month or so ago, so as to discourage people from waiting until they're onboard to do the upgrade.

Does this mean it's easier to upgrade now that the conductors no longer have to anguish over the possibility of the customer potentially benefiting from the delay?

It means that you don't have to involve the conductor at all. You can just do the upgrade with an agent in the station, or even call Amtrak from the station. Heck, for that matter you can call Amtrak yourself once on board if you have a solid cell signal and do the upgrade yourself. Then all you need do is have the conductor pull up the new info on his phone and facilitate your transfer to the sleeper.

I don't think Amtrak wants to mix single level with bi-levels if they can help it, since the Transdorms, unlike the transition coaches in the Hi-Level Santa Fe fleet are noit really designed to have passengers walking through them.

I thought I read on this very forum that the original assumption was that single and dual level passenger cars may be connected from time to time and that the transition cars would make it possible to move between them. I don't think Amtrak has actually used them this way, but I still don't understand what's stopping them, at least on any technical level.

There is nothing technical that stops it. Although I suppose not wanting to train yard people on how to maintain the Viewliners out west, as well as stocking the parts is a good reason not to do it. But there really isn't anything technical that would stop them. It just doesn't make sense frankly to do so.

 

[afigg]

Well, we can now definitely answer the question posed in the title of this thread: How much in peril in the Viewliner II order? The answer is none. Amtrak is obviously going to get enough funding through FY14 to complete the order.

The question I have is whether anyone has a hint as to when the cutoff date for exercising part of the 70 car option(s) might be? CAF is busy building the 130 cars with delivery presumably wrapping up sometime in calender year 2014 if they are still near the delivery numbers shown in the 5 year financial plan.

 

[Anderson]

Alan,

The biggest issue I see with the on-board upgrade model you proposed is that you're likely to get slapped with a second rail fare. Now, if Amtrak was able to accommodate you without that shift (which they may be able to, but I rather doubt it), that wouldn't be such a bad deal.

 

[AlanB]

Alan,

The biggest issue I see with the on-board upgrade model you proposed is that you're likely to get slapped with a second rail fare. Now, if Amtrak was able to accommodate you without that shift (which they may be able to, but I rather doubt it), that wouldn't be such a bad deal.

You'd only have that issue if you fail to mention to the agent that you're already onboard the train. But as long as one provides your current reservation number and states that they'd like to upgrade from coach to a sleeper, then the agent would simply attach an open room to the existing reservation preserving your railfare.

Previously an agent could not do that if the tickets were already printed, as one needed to exchange the coach tix for sleeper tix. But now there are no tix. So again, as long as a person says something like "I'm currently on the train and want to upgrade to a sleeper, the agent can process the upgrade without losing the fare already paid.

 

[gregn28]

Does anyone know if the new viewliners will still have the toilet, sink, and shower in the full bedrooms?

 

[VentureForth]

I'm sure they will. That's a feature of getting a full bedroom (and a bit more space and a chair. In the bedrooms, the toilet, sink and shower are all fully enclosed, so not the same issue as the roomettes.

 

[NE933]

Well, we can now definitely answer the question posed in the title of this thread: How much in peril in the Viewliner II order? The answer is none. Amtrak is obviously going to get enough funding through FY14 to complete the order.

The question I have is whether anyone has a hint as to when the cutoff date for exercising part of the 70 car option(s) might be? CAF is busy building the 130 cars with delivery presumably wrapping up sometime in calender year 2014 if they are still near the delivery numbers shown in the 5 year financial plan.

>-| See that? It's a champagne glass.

|-< And that? Is another champage glass. One's for me, the other for you. Let's click a big cheers to this glorious news, the first first fleet of Long Distance cars in nearly twenty years, and the first single level fleet expansion since Amfleet II, over three decades ago. A gruesome fact that causes great disgust and nausea. Viewliner II breaks the curse, it will bring joy to mankind, a great cause to celebrate, and to hope for the other 70 or more in the extra option.

As for Scott Walker, he can d... __ well being a Christan i can't say it. Besides, it'll get me expelled.

 

[AlanB]

Does anyone know if the new viewliners will still have the toilet, sink, and shower in the full bedrooms?

Yes, all of that will still be in the new Viewliners.

 

[Anderson]

Well, we can now definitely answer the question posed in the title of this thread: How much in peril in the Viewliner II order? The answer is none. Amtrak is obviously going to get enough funding through FY14 to complete the order.

The question I have is whether anyone has a hint as to when the cutoff date for exercising part of the 70 car option(s) might be? CAF is busy building the 130 cars with delivery presumably wrapping up sometime in calender year 2014 if they are still near the delivery numbers shown in the 5 year financial plan.

>-| See that? It's a champagne glass.

|-< And that? Is another champage glass. One's for me, the other for you. Let's click a big cheers to this glorious news, the first first fleet of Long Distance cars in nearly twenty years, and the first single level fleet expansion since Amfleet II, over three decades ago. A gruesome fact that causes great disgust and nausea. Viewliner II breaks the curse, it will bring joy to mankind, a great cause to celebrate, and to hope for the other 70 or more in the extra option.

As for Scott Walker, he can d... __ well being a Christan i can't say it. Besides, it'll get me expelled.

|-< I'll toast to that.

And I agree...Scott Walker can do the hokey pokey for all I care. (That is what you meant, right?)

 

[Ryan]

As a Hokie, I object to the notion of Scott Walker doing the Hokie Pokey. Let him do the chicken dance instead.

 

[NE933]

And I agree...Scott Walker can do the hokey pokey for all I care. (That is what you meant, right?)

Of course!

I actually borrowed that line in part from the brilliant exchange between Auntie Em and the mean Miss Gulch / Wicked Witch from the "Wizard of Oz".

A little trivia segue, the Witch was played by Margaret Hamilton, a former school teacher turned actress who not only was very kind and adored in real life, but, she was a regular Amtrak passenger! Plus, she was known to use the Princeton shuttle dinky when attending or giving lectures or performances at the university.

 

[PPorro]

The Wicked Witch of the West (Elphaba Thropp), and the Wicked Witch of the East in the tornado! Was that a trick question?

Will the Viewliner II aka SLLD or whatever, have Internet? That would be a nice touch.

 

[AlanB]

Will the Viewliner II aka SLLD or whatever, have Internet? That would be a nice touch.

My guess is that they'll be setup to handle WiFi, but they won't have any initially. Right now Amtrak has no WiFi on the long distance trains because there is no easy, lower cost way to make it happen. The system that they use for Acela & Regionals doesn't work well on the LD's at all.

 

[Woody]

Will the Viewliner IIs have Internet?

My guess is that they'll be set up to handle WiFi ...

Amtrak has begun migrating the Acelas from 3G to 4G, which has helped improve reception. Almost the corridor trains now offer Wi-Fi on some of the cars. Some trains in the East, like the Pennsylvanian, offer Wi-Fi service in the first class or cafe car, and the ones immediately adjoining.

Amtrak's aim is to roll out the service to cover the national network, as funds become available. That will take some time, and in the mountains and deserts out West, it will take a long, long, long time.

 

[Nathanael]

I expect that WiFi on the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Service, and Crescent will happen before too long. They *mostly* run through areas with good cell tower density (Erie to Buffalo notwithstanding).

WiFi west of Chicago is another matter.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak's aim is to roll out the service to cover the national network, as funds become available. That will take some time, and in the mountains and deserts out West, it will take a long, long, long time.

Actually, while Amtrak would like to roll out WiFi to the Long Distance trains it will be a while before it happens and it's not just about the funds to do it. Amtrak tested the current technology being used on Acela & Regionals on the Auto Train and it was a failure.

They had to go back to the drawing board and find a different technology to use for the LD's, as cellular will not work for them on the long distance trains. I haven't heard anything yet that indicates that they've decided on any solution yet. Once they do decide on a solution, then it must be tested, and then eventually funded.

Were I to hazard a guess, I'd say that we're at least 3 to 4 years away from having anything on the long distance trains.

 

[battalion51]

That surprises me that it failed on AT. If they can make it work on the Palmetto it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to get it on the Pride & Joy. Of the 855 mile ride for Auto Train at least 500 of that is shared with the Palmetto. And the back woods part of Georgia and Florida isn't as back woods as the regions of South Carolina that the Palmetto goes through. Gotta love technology...

 

[Acela150]

Alan If I had to take a wild guess on how LD trains would handle WiFi wouldn't the feed come via Satellite? Since the cellular network wouldn't work.

 

[AlanB]

That surprises me that it failed on AT. If they can make it work on the Palmetto it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to get it on the Pride & Joy. Of the 855 mile ride for Auto Train at least 500 of that is shared with the Palmetto. And the back woods part of Georgia and Florida isn't as back woods as the regions of South Carolina that the Palmetto goes through. Gotta love technology...

Well it failed not in the sense that it provided no service; but rather that what service it provides isn't enough for a full train. It works on the Palmetto in the cafe car because there is a limited amount of people using the service within that car. However, if Amtrak were to wire up the Amfleet II coaches used by the Palmetto the available bandwidth wouldn't be enough to support 30 or more people surfing the net.

The Cellular signal split among 10 or maybe even 20 sitting in the cafe car is tolerable most of the time and grinds to a halt occasionally. Spread that uplink modem across 300 potential AT passengers and the game is over. What you'd have would not be at all usable.

And just to review for those who may not be aware, the Amfleet/Acela cafe cars carries the uplink cellular modems and then distributes that connection to a WiFi hotspot located within each car of the train.

 

[AlanB]

Alan If I had to take a wild guess on how LD trains would handle WiFi wouldn't the feed come via Satellite? Since the cellular network wouldn't work.

I'm not at all sure if that will be the answer. Hard to keep the dish focused in the right direction, and one has to worry about where you mount the dish as you don't want it scrapped off by a bridge or a tunnel.

 

[Nathanael]

Well then, I could see WiFi being available only in the cafe on the LSL (for example). Most people on overnights don't need constant WiFi but would still appreciate having it occasionally.

There's something odd about this, though; it can't just be sheer number of people on the train. Most of the LD trains, Auto Train and LSL apart, aren't really *that* much longer than the Acelas. Surely more than 30 people are using the WiFi on the Acela. I can imagine that a less dense cellphone network would get overloaded more quickly; perhaps that's the real issue.

 

[Ryan]

Alan If I had to take a wild guess on how LD trains would handle WiFi wouldn't the feed come via Satellite? Since the cellular network wouldn't work.

I'm not at all sure if that will be the answer. Hard to keep the dish focused in the right direction, and one has to worry about where you mount the dish as you don't want it scrapped off by a bridge or a tunnel.

Not to mention, satellite is line of sight only, so if there are trees in the way, no internet for you.

 

[PRR 60]

Alan If I had to take a wild guess on how LD trains would handle WiFi wouldn't the feed come via Satellite? Since the cellular network wouldn't work.

I'm not at all sure if that will be the answer. Hard to keep the dish focused in the right direction, and one has to worry about where you mount the dish as you don't want it scrapped off by a bridge or a tunnel.

Not to mention, satellite is line of sight only, so if there are trees in the way, no internet for you.

I wonder how big a deal that would be? We have satellite radio in our car and while there can be occasional dead areas, by and large the reception is fine. Antennas for aircraft satellite internet are small uni-directional radomes mounted on the top of the fuselage, not dishes.