hypothetical SWC and EB timetable shifts - practicalities involved?

[Steve Manfred]

I have a hypothetical question about making a change to the timetable of the Southwest Chief and also the Empire Builder and am wondering what logistical obstacles there would be to doing such a thing if the will to actually do this was there.

Currently (and for at least the last three years) the Southwest Chief leaving Chicago for Los Angeles departs Chicago at 3:15pm. Meanwhile, the eastbound Empire Builder arriving from points west arrives in Chicago at 3:55pm. So, you can't connect from the EB to the SWC if you're coming from Minnesota or Wisconsin west of Milwaukee. (The exact same almost-but-not-quite timing problem also happens going the other way around, i.e. from the SWC to the EB)

So, what would be involved in changing the Chief's timetable so that it departs at 4:20pm (65 minutes later than now) and having the Empire Builder (one of them anyway since I think there's usually actually two trains on this route) be scheduled to arrive at 2:50pm (65 minutes earlier than now), so that there's that 90 minute window between them that would allow a connection?

Making a change like this would enable travelers from Minnesota or Wisconsin to reach Los Angeles by train in 2 days, whereas the way the system is set up now, it takes 3 days as it sends you first to Portland and then down the coast. And New Mexico would be reachable in 1 day.

I make a trip like this myself every February by first driving 6 hours to Fort Madison, Iowa where I can get on the Chief, but would much rather ride the rails the whole time, especially since the chances of bad driving conditions due to snow are so high at that time of year. (this is tied to a specific annual event in LA so changing dates isn't an option)

So... how hard would it be to shift two LD trains by 65 minutes each?

 

[MrFSS]

So, what would be involved in changing the Chief's timetable so that it departs at 4:20pm (65 minutes later than now) and having the Empire Builder (one of them anyway since I think there's usually actually two trains on this route) be scheduled to arrive at 2:50pm (65 minutes earlier than now), so that there's that 90 minute window between them that would allow a connection?

I'll let others comment on your suggestion, but as an informational point, there is only one EB that splits and/or joins in Spokane each day. Going west, part goes to Seattle and part to Portland. Its all the same train leaving Chicago as far as Spokane. Then, the two parts join in Spokane and become the one train eastbound to Chicago.

 

[Steve Manfred]

So, what would be involved in changing the Chief's timetable so that it departs at 4:20pm (65 minutes later than now) and having the Empire Builder (one of them anyway since I think there's usually actually two trains on this route) be scheduled to arrive at 2:50pm (65 minutes earlier than now), so that there's that 90 minute window between them that would allow a connection?

I'll let others comment on your suggestion, but as an informational point, there is only one EB that splits and/or joins in Spokane each day. Going west, part goes to Seattle and part to Portland. Its all the same train leaving Chicago as far as Spokane. Then, the two parts join in Spokane and become the one train eastbound to Chicago.

Ah, I see. I just saw the two different train numbers in the system and assumed it was two different trains.

 

[the_traveler]

The tracks that the EB and SWC (and most all Amtrak trains) run on are owned and controlled by each individual FREIGHT railroad (in this case, both trains are on primarily BNSF tracks), and they prefer to operate FREIGHT trains on their tracks. They allocate a certain time for Amtrak trains to run on these tracks and have a smooth run. If the schedule were delayed by 65 minutes, there may not be smooth running! (How many times have you heard of an Amtrak train sitting on a siding for 15 or 30 minutes? :huh: )

And the delay would not just be 65 minutes in CHI, but also in ABQ, FLG, MSP, PDX, SEA, LAX and every where else in between. All those other trains (both Amtrak and freight) would be delayed too.

 

[JohnF]

The tracks that the EB and SWC (and most all Amtrak trains) run on are owned and controlled by each individual FREIGHT railroad (in this case, both trains are on primarily BNSF tracks), and they prefer to operate FREIGHT trains on their tracks. They allocate a certain time for Amtrak trains to run on these tracks and have a smooth run. If the schedule were delayed by 65 minutes, there may not be smooth running! (How many times have you heard of an Amtrak train sitting on a siding for 15 or 30 minutes? :huh: )
And the delay would not just be 65 minutes in CHI, but also in ABQ, FLG, MSP, PDX, SEA, LAX and every where else in between. All those other trains (both Amtrak and freight) would be delayed too.

In the good old days as they say, the Super Chief left Chicago at 7PM and arrived in LA at about the same time, 8:30AM. It now takes Amtrak almost 4hrs longer to make the same run hence the 3:15 departure time. The Empire Builder by contrast used to arrive in Chicago at 2PM and made the trip in around 44hrs where as it now takes around 46hrs. And of course the trains then ran on time vs the sorry on time performance we see now.

 

[Steve Manfred]

sigh. This is what I was afraid of. But then again, you're all having this discussion of the possible reroute of the SWC to the "transcon" over in another thread... anyone care to guess on how that would shake up the timetable?

(thanks for the answers, btw)

 

[haolerider]

I have a hypothetical question about making a change to the timetable of the Southwest Chief and also the Empire Builder and am wondering what logistical obstacles there would be to doing such a thing if the will to actually do this was there.
Currently (and for at least the last three years) the Southwest Chief leaving Chicago for Los Angeles departs Chicago at 3:15pm. Meanwhile, the eastbound Empire Builder arriving from points west arrives in Chicago at 3:55pm. So, you can't connect from the EB to the SWC if you're coming from Minnesota or Wisconsin west of Milwaukee. (The exact same almost-but-not-quite timing problem also happens going the other way around, i.e. from the SWC to the EB)

So, what would be involved in changing the Chief's timetable so that it departs at 4:20pm (65 minutes later than now) and having the Empire Builder (one of them anyway since I think there's usually actually two trains on this route) be scheduled to arrive at 2:50pm (65 minutes earlier than now), so that there's that 90 minute window between them that would allow a connection?

Making a change like this would enable travelers from Minnesota or Wisconsin to reach Los Angeles by train in 2 days, whereas the way the system is set up now, it takes 3 days as it sends you first to Portland and then down the coast. And New Mexico would be reachable in 1 day.

I make a trip like this myself every February by first driving 6 hours to Fort Madison, Iowa where I can get on the Chief, but would much rather ride the rails the whole time, especially since the chances of bad driving conditions due to snow are so high at that time of year. (this is tied to a specific annual event in LA so changing dates isn't an option)

So... how hard would it be to shift two LD trains by 65 minutes each?

Any shifting in the schedule has to be approved by the host railroads who own the tracks. I doubt seriously if this would be approved. There also are limitations/time slots in and out of Chicago, that would be conflicting. It is one very large jigsaw puzzle.

 

[the_traveler]

The tracks that the EB and SWC (and most all Amtrak trains) run on are owned and controlled by each individual FREIGHT railroad (in this case, both trains are on primarily BNSF tracks), and they prefer to operate FREIGHT trains on their tracks. They allocate a certain time for Amtrak trains to run on these tracks and have a smooth run. If the schedule were delayed by 65 minutes, there may not be smooth running! (How many times have you heard of an Amtrak train sitting on a siding for 15 or 30 minutes? :huh: )
And the delay would not just be 65 minutes in CHI, but also in ABQ, FLG, MSP, PDX, SEA, LAX and every where else in between. All those other trains (both Amtrak and freight) would be delayed too.

In the good old days as they say, the Super Chief left Chicago at 7PM and arrived in LA at about the same time, 8:30AM. It now takes Amtrak almost 4hrs longer to make the same run hence the 3:15 departure time. The Empire Builder by contrast used to arrive in Chicago at 2PM and made the trip in around 44hrs where as it now takes around 46hrs. And of course the trains then ran on time vs the sorry on time performance we see now.

Yes, and in the "good old days", those trains were operated by the host railroads themselves - and not contracted out by Amtrak to run on their tracks!

At one time, the host railroad actually cared to run passenger trains, but later many could not care. (Look at many trains in the 1960's!) Now these same railroads "allow" (via contracts) Amtrak to run passenger trains on their tracks, but they prefer to run freights, where they make the most money. Some railroads care about allowing Amtrak to run on time (such as BNSF) while some do not care (such as UP).

 

[Rail Freak]

The tracks that the EB and SWC (and most all Amtrak trains) run on are owned and controlled by each individual FREIGHT railroad (in this case, both trains are on primarily BNSF tracks), and they prefer to operate FREIGHT trains on their tracks. They allocate a certain time for Amtrak trains to run on these tracks and have a smooth run. If the schedule were delayed by 65 minutes, there may not be smooth running! (How many times have you heard of an Amtrak train sitting on a siding for 15 or 30 minutes? :huh: )
And the delay would not just be 65 minutes in CHI, but also in ABQ, FLG, MSP, PDX, SEA, LAX and every where else in between. All those other trains (both Amtrak and freight) would be delayed too.

In the good old days as they say, the Super Chief left Chicago at 7PM and arrived in LA at about the same time, 8:30AM. It now takes Amtrak almost 4hrs longer to make the same run hence the 3:15 departure time. The Empire Builder by contrast used to arrive in Chicago at 2PM and made the trip in around 44hrs where as it now takes around 46hrs. And of course the trains then ran on time vs the sorry on time performance we see now.

How about padding, that must affect it also?

 

[The Metropolitan]

Even if this were possible, wouldn't a later w/b SWC corrupt the connection to the Coast Starlight in LA?

 

[Karl]

My guess is there is some corporate ingrain here... The EB, CZ, and SWC are all "East-West" Trains. It just does not make sense to go "East" and then "West" on the same ticket, LOL. Practically there are likely reasons as far as Amtrak's "zone" system of fares, so Amtrak could end up seriously undercharging for their service (even by subsidized standards). Consider a SEA-CHI-LAX railfan wonder vs the SEA-LAX on the CS at the same price! The other cost reason is if Amtrak through tickets they guarentee the connection... A late train could become very expensive (to Amtrak) for short trip tickets.

And yes, a tweak of the SWC departure would affect the connection with the CS. This could easily be fixed by a (rational to me) bus or rail connection Barstow-Bakersfield and utilize San Jauquien service to Oakland, and a CS connection for SEA, I think there already is a bus connection Bakersfield-Ventura (on the CS).

And of course we could wish for a "Midwest Flyer" MSP-Omaha-KC-OKC-DFW-San Antonio!

 

[saxman]

Actually the EB doesn't make any western train connection. So I think adjusting it is all thats needed. Of course there's dealing with freight railroads, but that aside, it still would be difficult to have the EB arrive earlier into Chicago. The Portland connection with the Coast Starlight is very importmant to keep. (Of course its with a bus now) So you can't mess with that really. When I lived in ND, I always wanted to travel to Dallas, but that connection left before I could make it.

I've wondered if there were a way to make all the connections in the same day, but in that case the trains have to be ontime and reliable.