Imperative Empire Builder Question

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Kevin L.

Service Attendant
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
105
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
Why are there no outlets in the Empire Builder? There were only 3 outlets in the whole durn train, and those were in the lounge car, and were subject to blood feuds for possession by angry mobs of people with blackberries. None of the bathroom outlets worked, and there was only one outlet in the lower level coach, and it was blocked by a chair and did not work either.

If I hadn't taken the advice of this forum and brought a powerstrip, and found a working outlet in the vestibule of the lower level coach, I would have been in trouble.

My question is: Are there outlets in the roomette? After the ridiculous experience in coach for 2 days, we have booked one for the way back, and would appreciate knowing if working outlets will be provided within?

Also, has anyone else had the experience of having to deal with senior citizens acting incredibly immature on the train? 4 days of train, and anyone who got on with a senior citizen discount was, sadly, making the little children (whom the senior citizens had issues with) look like the pinnacle of high society :(
 
Why are there no outlets in the Empire Builder? There were only 3 outlets in the whole durn train, and those were in the lounge car, and were subject to blood feuds for possession by angry mobs of people with blackberries.
Because when those cars were built, people didn't have Blackberries. People didn't travel with anything the required electrical outlets at every seat.
 
My question is: Are there outlets in the roomette? After the ridiculous experience in coach for 2 days, we have booked one for the way back, and would appreciate knowing if working outlets will be provided within?
Yes, your own double outlet is one of the many amenities you get, when you upgrade to sleeper class.
 
My question is: Are there outlets in the roomette? After the ridiculous experience in coach for 2 days, we have booked one for the way back, and would appreciate knowing if working outlets will be provided within?
Yes, your own double outlet is one of the many amenities you get, when you upgrade to sleeper class.
and just cuz you didn't get any outlets one trip, doesn't mean you wont' get one next trip. I'm pretty sure

i had outlets on the EB, but not on the CS.. things rotate
 
Also, has anyone else had the experience of having to deal with senior citizens acting incredibly immature on the train? 4 days of train, and anyone who got on with a senior citizen discount was, sadly, making the little children (whom the senior citizens had issues with) look like the pinnacle of high society :(
What is your problem boy?? Did you have a problem with an oldster - so you blame all? Are you quite sure that anyone who got on with a senior citizen discount acted badly?

Based on what I see here, I am sure SOMEONE acted badly.
 
When the cars were built 25-35 years ago, not everyone had cell phones, DVD players, iPods, laptops, etc... - so 2 outlets per car were enough for the cleaners. When the cars get refurbished, they try to put in more outlets. But not every car has yet been refurbished. You may find some trains have outlets and some do not. You may even find (on the same train) one car has outlets, but the car behind does not!

You will have your own outlet in the roomette or sleeper. But still, a power strip is handy. I found the power outlet in the bedroom is near the door, but your computer is on the table by the window! That 6' cord comes in handy!
 
Also, has anyone else had the experience of having to deal with senior citizens acting incredibly immature on the train? 4 days of train, and anyone who got on with a senior citizen discount was, sadly, making the little children (whom the senior citizens had issues with) look like the pinnacle of high society :(
What is your problem boy?? Did you have a problem with an oldster - so you blame all? Are you quite sure that anyone who got on with a senior citizen discount acted badly?

Based on what I see here, I am sure SOMEONE acted badly.
I second Mr RRrich's reply. Very well stated.
 
Let's mention what transpired, and we'll see if your judging is still apropos:

On the Cardinal, going from LAF to CHI (3.5 hour journey estimated), the train was frozen in a Chicago freight yard for 8 hours. During this time, a senior citizen in the seat near me started whining and moaning about nothing, and his wife started heckling the already stressed and overworked amtrak conductors. After a discussion, it turned out that his wife was concerned because the guy was diabetic and needed protein, and the symptom of needing protein was him getting grumpy and cantankerous. 2 cars full of people are locked on a car just down the street from our destination, on a train without even a snack car! We're all perturbed, hungry, and uncomfortable, but we kept our composure.

Not only did we keep our composure, but he was offered various foodstuffs from passengers' own stashes. One passenger offered him a banana, and he had a hissy fit because he needed protein instead of potassium. Not everyone knows the intricacies of diabetes, and the passenger who offered the banana was out of direct earshot of the guy and only offered the banana in response to hearing of the guy's plea through the conductor asking if anyone could help. The guy condemned the passenger and rambled about the passenger, clearly regarding the passenger as an idiot.

After some more incessant nagging, I thought the guy was in serious need of protein, so I proffered my pristine, unopened jar of peanut butter, and he made a face that a stereotypical 3 year old would make when offered spinach, and started pouting about how he didn't like peanut butter, and his wife was once again left to try and cover for her husband's pathetic behavior by being apologetic.

If the guy needed protein so badly, whether or not a food is liked shouldn't matter. He was crying like he was dying, but apparently he was far from it. If you don't actually need it, just sit back and keep a respectable demeanor.

To further matters, he started harassing the conductor for an ambulance, something he clearly did not need. The conductor told him that the ambulance could not get into the freight yard, so the guy increased his harassment. 2 hours later, an ambulance managed to show up, but it charged 600 dollars to take him away, and then he started ranting about that. The guy, however, did board the ambulance, and no one within earshot of him was sad to see him go.

So then we got to Chicago and boarded the empire builder, where we were the first on a car and took the lower level coach seats that we paid for.

Later on, a few families with little kids board. A few stops later, a bunch of senior citizens boarded. A few stops after the train left, a senior citizen woman boarded the train, and there were NO free seats on the lower level coach. "But I paid for this!", she exclaimed. So what happened? All the older people on the train tried to guilt me and my compadres to relinquish our seats, singling us out because we were younger. After the struggle we went through to acquire our seats in Chicago, and the fact that we were the first people in the car, we were not relinquishing. The lounge car had no heat, and was packed with overbooked people as one car on the train was unusable. We were not about to go freeze ourselves off in a standing-room-only lounge car just because some sanctimonious senior citizens decided that we were an acceptable sacrifice for what they felt was just.

After a bit, several of the senior citizens left to give their seat up, after jeering us repeatedly failed to achieve their goals. The woman herself could not go upstairs because "asthma" prevented her from climbing them, but later in a conversation with a fellow passenger, she confided that she could climb them, and would, to avoid having to wait an additional day for a return train from her destination with available lower level coach seating.

Eventually the situation was resolved when a couple managed to upgrade to a sleeper, and they gave their seats to her. Once the woman got a seat, she proceeded to lament her tale of seating to one of her friends via cellphone, and she used the conversation to indirectly attack my me and my compadres, as well as the families with children in the car. She said that she did not believe that "these boys here" had tickets to ride in lower level coach, and flagrantly called us liars, at which point I had to intervene with my personal protest. Later, with another old woman passenger, she tried to resume the same conversation, adding in that the lower level coach should not have children in it, and was supposed to be for "senior citizens with problems getting around" (which she did not even qualify for). Even the parents of the children were condemned, as eventually the older citizens in the car, one of whom was a reverend, agreed with her opinion that we did not belong. No one told us or Amtrak that the lower level coach was supposed to be an exclusive geriatrics club.

Later, when I found my outlet and plugged in my powerstrip, the same people who had been trying to jeer and guilt trip us for over a day came to me with requests to plug in their phones. Out of the goodness of my heart, I obliged them. I even held the reverend's tracphone while it charged for a good 45 minutes (while my phone recharged). After this event, the geriatrics committee in the car that had condemned us to the most awful circle of hell for the entire train ride previously decided to hail us as returning champions, giving us leftover food and drink and their conversation, as if nothing had transpired previously. Maybe they themselves felt guilty, but their attempts at reconciliation were so shallow that even a deaf man could hear the insincerity in their voices. As we disembarked from the train in Spokane, they must have thought I was out of earshot as they formed a caucus and condemned me and my compadres once again. Fickle, aloof, and holier than thou. That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Sadly, I have never encountered any senior citizens acting this immaturely before. My own grandparents and all the other senior citizens that I have met would condemn the childish behavior. Asthma keeping one from climbing a sissy little flight of stairs? Ha! I know elderly with artificial knees and required canes to walk who take the stairs as a challenge, and condemn the handicap pass as a blight of a nation of sissies. I try to respect the elderly, but when they act like children, insult me blatantly, and most importantly call me a liar, that becomes incredibly challenging. I did not respond to any of them with an elevated voice or in anger, and only by divine providence was able to restrain from all forms of retaliation. Punished for being considerate, for going out of my way to assist, and for using the services that I paid for? If you still think that there was misbehavior on my part, I am afraid that you cannot see past your own bias, for there was no misbehavior.

I am glad to see that Ageism is alive and true here. "Ageism" is a term created by the Politically Correctness movement, i.e. BS, and I confirm here that I put no stock in it. However, I like to note its prevalence, as I find it Most Interesting that the older members of society, who are directly responsible for the sad state of affairs in America today condemn the youth, who have the power to right the wrongs of their predecessors, and are sad victims of the follies of those who came before us. This sad state of affairs always brings forth a melancholic smile :(

Finally, I must address the comment made by one esteemed RRrich. While there were many other senior citizens on the train, whom were neutral or downright friendly, they did not ever make the claim that they used a Senior Citizen discount. The ones I mentioned in my sad recount of events blatantly used their senior citizen discount in their arguments as justification for their position, and as some pass to elitism. "I am a senior citizen, and as such I purchased a lower level coach seat with my discount, and I was denied my seat by children and boys, neither of who [sic] should have been in here as the lower level is for senior citizens with problems getting around."

So yes, anyone who I know for a fact boarded with a senior citizen discount acted badly.

As for the outlets, no one informed us that the Empire Builder did not sport them. I brought with me a miniature library, and was set with enough non-electrical entertainment to last me the journey and then some, but not having an outlet came as a shock from every other train that I have ridden having 2 outlets per seat row. For the way back though, I have some things that will not work too well sans power, so having a plug-in would be nice.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
While there are a certain number of lower level seats that are kept out of the normal reservation process for handicapped people, the remainder that are sold through the online system are available to anyone without regard to age or any other criteria. The elderly do not have a lock on lower level seats.

As for the diabetic, if indeed he was suffering a sugar imbalance, then you can't take anything he says or does with a grain of salt. A sugar imbalance can through all rhyme and reason out the window, even if the person actually seems lucid.
 
As for the diabetic, if indeed he was suffering a sugar imbalance, then you can't take anything he says or does with a grain of salt. A sugar imbalance can through all rhyme and reason out the window, even if the person actually seems lucid.
I can verify that one... However, his wife should have known what he needed to help him.

As for senior citizens on the EB, or any train for that matter, rarely do I have problems with them. There were plenty on the EB on Labor Day, most kept to themselves. Once of my most fond memories is of a couple who were very specific about their water. Three ice cubes was too many, two was too few. The lounge attendant kindly pointed out that there was no number between 2 and 3 in manner of ice-- so they had it bottled instead.

The attendant didn't even charge em for the bottle.
 
So, someone with a legitmate medical issue irritated you, and folks that had a genuine need to sit in the lower level couldn't knock you off of your high horse to go and do the respectable thing and offer an older person your seat. You were well within your right to stay in the seat that you paid for, but you certainly could have handled the situation better.

Furthermore, you're so proud of yourself for that, that you brag about it on an internet forum, and use it as an example of why old people are directly responsible for the "sad state of affairs" in the US today.

Instead, you ought be ashamed of yourself, and show a little respect to a generation that sacrificed mightily to put this country where it is today (which IMO, is the best damn place to live in the world, hands down).

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not one of the old fogies you rail against - I'm 29 and disgusted by your immature attitude. You're "nobody told me there wouldn't be outlets" whining is equally pathetic - 30 seconds worth of searching here would lead you to the information that reliable power in a Superliner is a hit or miss proposition (a factor contributing to my decision to upgrade on my recent Auto Train trip).
 
After some more incessant nagging, I thought the guy was in serious need of protein, so I proffered my pristine, unopened jar of peanut butter, and he made a face that a stereotypical 3 year old would make when offered spinach, and started pouting about how he didn't like peanut butter, and his wife was once again left to try and cover for her husband's pathetic behavior by being apologetic.
If the guy needed protein so badly, whether or not a food is liked shouldn't matter
Maybe it's like he didn't like the food. How about if he was allergic to peanuts? :rolleyes: So if he did take it, and it would have caused a more serous medical emergency, you would have been proud? :rolleyes:

And since when does the Cardinal not have a cafe? Going from NYP to CHI is a long time to go without food! (That's the route of the Cardinal!)

Maybe the 10 or so "senior citizens" that you encountered did not meet your expectations, but does that mean that ALL the MILLIONS of senior citizens are to be lumped into that group? :huh: (Hey - that group includes your grandparents! They must be really BAD too!) While your at it, you might as well add that all whites, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, kids, those who live in Seattle, those from Miami, anyone who works for GE, etc.. are all bad too! :rolleyes: You can't lump ALL those in the group together since you had some experience with just a few!
 
So, someone with a legitmate medical issue irritated you, and folks that had a genuine need to sit in the lower level couldn't knock you off of your high horse to go and do the respectable thing and offer an older person your seat. You were well within your right to stay in the seat that you paid for, but you certainly could have handled the situation better.
Furthermore, you're so proud of yourself for that, that you brag about it on an internet forum, and use it as an example of why old people are directly responsible for the "sad state of affairs" in the US today.

Instead, you ought be ashamed of yourself, and show a little respect to a generation that sacrificed mightily to put this country where it is today (which IMO, is the best damn place to live in the world, hands down).

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not one of the old fogies you rail against - I'm 29 and disgusted by your immature attitude. You're "nobody told me there wouldn't be outlets" whining is equally pathetic - 30 seconds worth of searching here would lead you to the information that reliable power in a Superliner is a hit or miss proposition (a factor contributing to my decision to upgrade on my recent Auto Train trip).
Let me preface what I'm about to say by letting you know that I am 61 years of age so you can know from which age group I am coming from. I am also not disagreeing with what you've stated or agreeing in any way, shape or form with what Kevin has stated. Also, I am only refering to what I've highlighted in your post shown above.

I hate to say it but in a way Kevin is right when he says that "old people are directly responsible for the "sad state of affairs" in the US today." However, it is not for the reason you and others may think.

"Old people's" responsibility, as he put it, can be traced back to when they were young adults and not today as older folks! As young adults many of todays - now old - people were disgrunteled and hateful with the Viet Nam conflict much as todays young adults are disgruntled and hateful with our involvement with Iraq.

Because this borders on political discussion I will NOT and should not make any political commentary, elaborations or conclusions on what I mean, but I will say that in order to have any possibility of fully understand or "getting" what I am saying, one has to have a unique ability of observation or comprehension, as you seem to have, or that one must have either lived and understood the Viet Nam era -and/or- have been a student of the Viet Nam War and how it affected society in it's aftermath, affections that hae changed America forever and accounts for much of what occurs today!

I would encourage anyone who doesn't get what I'm referring to and really cares, to take the time to try and figure it out for themselves by doing the reading, the research if you will, then form your own conclusions and not rely on any preconceived notions, opinions or bias's from me or anyone else on this forum or any other forums for that matter!
 
"Old people's" responsibility, as he put it, can be traced back to when they were young adults and not today as older folks! As young adults many of todays - now old - people were disgrunteled and hateful with the Viet Nam conflict much as todays young adults are disgruntled and hateful with our involvement with Iraq.
So some of the older generation in the US are rude on trains because some of your Governments like to get into wars they can never win? Interesting concept .... :blink:
 
Like Sky I am an oldster - 64 yo, and I agree with Sky that we senior citizens are to blame for Kevin's discomfort. While I agree with what I think are Sky's blaming the war in South East Asia I think that there is another reason for Kevin's problems.

We are the ones who raised him to be such a self indulgent egocentric person.

On the Cardinal, going from LAF to CHI (3.5 hour journey estimated), the train was frozen in a Chicago freight yard for 8 hours. During this time, a senior citizen in the seat near me started whining and moaning about nothing, and his wife started heckling the already stressed and overworked amtrak conductors. After a discussion, it turned out that his wife was concerned because the guy was diabetic and needed protein, and the symptom of needing protein was him getting grumpy and cantankerous. 2 cars full of people are locked on a car just down the street from our destination, on a train without even a snack car! We're all perturbed, hungry, and uncomfortable, but we kept our composure.
I note Kevin's choice of italicized (emphasis added) words - and why was the fellow complaining - Kevin says "about nothing", but what did our poor inconvenienced correspondent later learn from the wife? The old gentleman had a Medical Condition causing his distress.

Yet even after knowing of the poor man's Medical Condition, the self absorbed one has the temerity to minimize the situation by saying "We're all perturbed, hungry, and uncomfortable, but we kept our composure." NOT THE SAME!!

Let's mention what transpired, and we'll see if your judging is still apropos:
Yes Kevin, I still think that not all, if any, seniors acted badly and I still think that someone did act badly - might it have been Kevin???
 
when did this turn into a political thread. how do we go from olds folks acting like 2 year olds of there meds to Iraq and politics .
Pardon me but what old folks acted badly - other than those whose cognitive facilities might have been affected by medical conditions?
 
"Old people's" responsibility, as he put it, can be traced back to when they were young adults and not today as older folks! As young adults many of todays - now old - people were disgrunteled and hateful with the Viet Nam conflict much as todays young adults are disgruntled and hateful with our involvement with Iraq.
So some of the older generation in the US are rude on trains because some of your Governments like to get into wars they can never win? Interesting concept .... :blink:
NOW IF THAT WASN'T A CHEAP POLITICAL SHOT AT OUR COUNTRY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS! :angry2:

RE-READ MY POST AGAIN IN IT'S ENTIRITY SO YOU WILL SEE WHERE I INDICATED "I will NOT and should not make any political commentary, elaborations or conclusions."

SO WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND AND WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE ON THIS FORUM?
 
when did this turn into a political thread. how do we go from olds folks acting like 2 year olds of there meds to Iraq and politics .
When Neil decided he wanted to take advantage of my message and stirr things up by insulting our country and not a moment sooner! Ironiclly, his behaviour can also be traced back to the Viet Nam conflict too! Anyway, from this point forward, I'm not giving him the satisfaction of letting his remark sucker me into esclating what he started into any further political discussions!!!
 
NOW IF THAT WASN'T A CHEAP POLITICAL SHOT AT OUR COUNTRY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS! :angry2:
RE-READ MY POST AGAIN IN IT'S ENTIRITY SO YOU WILL SEE WHERE I INDICATED "I will NOT and should not make any political commentary, elaborations or conclusions."

SO WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND AND WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE ON THIS FORUM?
So you are allowed to post what ever you like in a roundabout bewildered fashion and no one is allowed to comment? Funny old world. I think the trouble started with your diatribe about not much in particular. Is it that you always have to respect your elders? Respect is earned, not given.

I like your country and there is a lot of fantastic people in it.

But countries, or more particularly, leaders, that send their youth off to fight a pointless war deserve nothing better than cheap political shots. Take your blinkers off.(And stop shouting, its bad manners.)
 
OK, everybody sit down, count to ten, relax, count to ten
Mahalo
I can't count to 10, my elders failed me when teaching me my numbers! :p <-Sad attempt at a joke to lighten the mood.

Serious answer follows:

Sky, based on your posting history, your political leanings aren't too tough to discern. Viewed through that lens, it's impossible to see your post as a non-political statement, regardless of any disclaimer. I can put a disclaimer that I'm not a long winded buffoon that likes to stir the pot, but that doesn't change the fact that my posts are far more wordy than they need to be, and I enjoy a vigorous (but polite) debate. That said, trying hypothetical failures of today's older generation with folks being "disgruntled and hateful" as younger adults is way off base in my mind and a pretty thinly veiled comment that those people behaved badly. Whilst Neil could have phrased his response much more politely, there is a nugget of truth in his statement.

For some perspective, when I spoke of the "elder generation" in my post, I was more thinking of the WWII / Korea generation that made great sacrifices. Probably in denial about my own adulthood, I refuse to think of my parents generation (the Viet Nam generation) as "elder". However, extending my comments to that generation, and the current generation, regardless of what side of the issues folks are on, the fact that they are able to (and do) exercise their right to voice their opinion makes this country a great place. Whether you volunteered to serve, were drafted and served faithfully, or stayed at home and protested the war, I would like to think (perhaps a bit idealistically) that most people acted according to their conscience and advanced society to where we are today (which, by my yardstick is a pretty darn good place).

Coming back to the point, do I think that we have problems? Sure! Everyone's got problems. Do I think that Kevin is correct at laying the blame at the foot of that older generation? Doubtful (although RRich raised a good point that raising a generation of self indulgent whiners can be laid at their feet). But in reality, it isn't important to assign blame. Who cares about how we got where are today. In my book, it's much more important to figure out what we can do to make the world a better place, and how we can do that to the best effect.

</soapbox mode="off">

Cheers,

Ryan
 
OK, everybody sit down, count to ten, relax, count to ten
Mahalo
I can't count to 10, my elders failed me when teaching me my numbers! :p <-Sad attempt at a joke to lighten the mood.

Serious answer follows:

Sky, based on your posting history, your political leanings aren't too tough to discern. Viewed through that lens, it's impossible to see your post as a non-political statement, regardless of any disclaimer. I can put a disclaimer that I'm not a long winded buffoon that likes to stir the pot, but that doesn't change the fact that my posts are far more wordy than they need to be, and I enjoy a vigorous (but polite) debate. That said, trying hypothetical failures of today's older generation with folks being "disgruntled and hateful" as younger adults is way off base in my mind and a pretty thinly veiled comment that those people behaved badly. Whilst Neil could have phrased his response much more politely, there is a nugget of truth in his statement.

For some perspective, when I spoke of the "elder generation" in my post, I was more thinking of the WWII / Korea generation that made great sacrifices. Probably in denial about my own adulthood, I refuse to think of my parents generation (the Viet Nam generation) as "elder". However, extending my comments to that generation, and the current generation, regardless of what side of the issues folks are on, the fact that they are able to (and do) exercise their right to voice their opinion makes this country a great place. Whether you volunteered to serve, were drafted and served faithfully, or stayed at home and protested the war, I would like to think (perhaps a bit idealistically) that most people acted according to their conscience and advanced society to where we are today (which, by my yardstick is a pretty darn good place).

Coming back to the point, do I think that we have problems? Sure! Everyone's got problems. Do I think that Kevin is correct at laying the blame at the foot of that older generation? Doubtful (although RRich raised a good point that raising a generation of self indulgent whiners can be laid at their feet). But in reality, it isn't important to assign blame. Who cares about how we got where are today. In my book, it's much more important to figure out what we can do to make the world a better place, and how we can do that to the best effect.

</soapbox mode="off">

Cheers,

Ryan
HokieNav,

I can count to 10 in 3 different languages but that's no big deal and wouldn't do any good anyway!

My original response to the statement "why old people are directly responsible for the sad state of affairs in the US today" was not and it was never intended to be political but rather educational in nature. As I know think of it, this statement can be attributed to where this discussion actually did turn toward politics, as one person previously asked! But at the same time it didn't materilized until the response to my original response took place.

Never-the-less, you've hit upon one good reason why it actually became political after my posting when you said "Viewed through that lens, it's impossible to see your post as a non-political statement, regardless of any disclaimer."

Most of us know that when you view things through a lens, what passes throught that lens frequently gets distorted. This is what happened here when some saw my words through that distorted lens and interpeted them in a way they wanted to. In other words, my words should be judged with an open mind on their own merits and not as I previously said, on the "preconcieved notions" derived from my previous postings.

In preparing my original message response, I'll admit that I did have to move up to the door where politics lurked it's ugly head. I couldn't really avoid it to make my point, but I did lock that door and stayed behind it, or at least I thought and still do think I did. Unfortunately someone had to come along and bust through that door and drag me in. For the after effect I do apologize and hope others will accept that apology and just move on. But for getting upset by a foreigner bashing our country, right or wrong, I will not NOW or EVER apologize for defending my country from a foreign bashing!!! I would not publicly do that to him about his country on this forum and I accept no less in return!

One last thing... there is a whole lot more I can say here about your comments and my original response... but then again, I don't want to escellate this into the level of a true political discussion! So, If people don't want to accept what I've stated and suggested, then they should just ignore my postings and move on as I have and will with most of their postings!
 
Back
Top