Is "socially distant" seating no longer used?

[Devil's Advocate]

While it may seem attractive to be able to reserve two seats to yourself, it may not be quite as beneficial if one can't travel for several weeks because the train is "fully booked", but seats are actually half empty?

In my experience a fully booked coach cabin is exceedingly rare on Amtrak's national network. On most trips several rows are empty for the whole route and sometimes whole cars go completely unused. Amtrak uses the "sold out" message as a generic ticketing error for many situations that are unrelated to real bookings or actual capacity.

Allowing people to buy two seats and keep one empty would reduce ridership, even if it preserves revenue, and passenger rail advocates should be more interested in increasing ridership. [...] If you ride during a busy period (like I did on coach on the Silver Star one time), you have to expect the possibility that you will be sharing a seat. Either that, or reserve a sleeper.

The only times I've seen long haul coach completely sold out were during major holidays. If Amtrak wants to block empty seat sales during heavy holiday travel that's understandable but the other 90% of the year they're losing customers as odds and singles look for other options to avoid sleeping against unpredictable strangers with no divider. Unlike coach seats Amtrak sleepers sell out on a regular basis so that's not a viable solution for many.

 

[jis]

The only examples where I've seen long haul coach completely sold out were during major holidays. If Amtrak wants to block empty seat sales during heavy holiday travel that's understandable but the other 90% of the year they're losing customers as odds and singles look for other options to avoid sleeping against unpredictable strangers with no divider.
Unlike coach seats Amtrak sleepers sell out on a regular basis so that's not a viable solution for many.

The Sleeping accommodation on Amtrak, even when available, often costs beyond an arm and a leg and involves significant portions of the torso too, making them nonviable for many. So it is usually off to Southwest or some such.

 

[west point]

The last time rode Crescent south of Atlanta ( Pre Covid-19 ) the rear 2 coaches of 4 were locked out so no one could go into them. Do not recall if they were V-1s or V-2s. By Birmingham the 2 forward coaches were almost completely full with only 4 ( as I recall ) seats open after Anniston. Heard passenger ask conductor why another car not open but did not get a good answer. . About 5 minutes before getting to Atlanta station conductor walked back and unlocked coach #3 and probably 4 was already open,. Was so late and tired did not question why.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

About 5 minutes out of Atlanta station conductor walked back and unlocked coach #3 and probably 4 was already open,. Was so late and tired did not question why.

That would have been a different conductor. (Crew change in Atlanta). That’s probably the answer.

 

[west point]

Actually the extra coaches were needed north of ATL. It was inbound conductor that unlocked car. Hiding what he did ?a

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Actually the extra coaches were needed north of ATL. It was inbound conductor that unlocked car. Hiding what he did ?a

Well if the cars were needed north of Atlanta he was opening them for the conductor boarding in Atlanta. It wasn’t necessarily hiding anything.

 

[MARC Rider]

If the second seats were paid at full fare, couldn't they have counted that as another passenger, for accounting purposes? If so, and the fact that trains were 'booked' full, should have the same effect in the argument for expanding capacity, and gaining even more revenue.
If the object was to fill the train with bodies, then they should give away seats if they can't sell them all, just to inflate the passenger count....

No, from a policy point of view, what's needed is to ensure that everyone who wants to ride a train can find a seat, and do it in a financially sustainable (for the company) way. Yes, selling the extra seat brings the company the revenue, but it prevents another passenger from being able to take the train. If enough seats are sequestered this way, potential passengers may find the trains always "sold out" and the general public will get the idea that train travel is not a reliable mode of travel. Furthermore, filling up the limited available rolling stock with paid-for empty seats just so some passengers don't have to deal with a seatmate is not really a good way to encourage new service. As I previously posted, a 2-1 business class product with advance seat assignment would provide accommodation for solo travelers who can't abide by having a seatmate and don't want to pay for a roomette.

However, if one is really serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, then all vehicles should be run to full capacity. In other words, the buses, trains, or planes don't leave until the vehicle is full. All of the interstates should be HOV lanes only, and if a driver wants to use them, they need to stop at a "slug line" and pick up "slugs" to fill up the car. In fact, there probably shouldn't be first class "hard product" (i.e. roomier seats or excessive privacy) on any form of transport, as reducing the passenger load increases the GHG emissions per passenger mile. Sure, travel will become more unpleasant, but that could have GHG benefits by further reducing travel in general, and thus vehicle miles traveled and thus GHG emissions.

 

[MARC Rider]

Unfortunately, our nation has become so polarized in recent times, that every possible issue becomes divisive, including the wearing of a mask for public heath safety. What should be done with that in mind, instead, for some, that has been made into a showing of your political affiliation.
I can understand somewhat the crew's trepidation of strict enforcement, and having people get into a brawl over it....

You know, every once in a while, I see armed APD officers strolling through the train. It's been a while since I've seen one on any train I've ridden, but I don't think that APD had been defunded. So there must be lots of APD officers around. Maybe there should be an officer on board to quietly and politely be there to back up the conductor when he has to lay down the law? If not an officer, at least a big strong intimidating-looking bouncer?

 

[MARC Rider]

Well if the cars were needed north of Atlanta he was opening them for the conductor boarding in Atlanta. It wasn’t necessarily hiding anything.

And if they had let all of the passengers who boarded before Atlanta spread out in the coaches, then there's a good chance that all of the passengers boarding in Atlanta would have to share their seats, and we'd get someone post here complaining that there are never any single seats if you board at Atlanta.

 

[jis]

And if they had let all of the passengers who boarded before Atlanta spread out in the coaches, then there's a good chance that all of the passengers boarding in Atlanta would have to share their seats, and we'd get someone post here complaining that there are never any single seats if you board at Atlanta.

Which is really not as bad as not having any seat at all in an all reserved train, which I experienced multiple times upon boarding an NER at Metropark! But typically I did not complain because I knew I'd get a seat come NWK/NYP or PHL, often of exactly my choice, depending on which way I was headed. It is just the busiest segment of the NEC problem.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And if they had let all of the passengers who boarded before Atlanta spread out in the coaches, then there's a good chance that all of the passengers boarding in Atlanta would have to share their seats, and we'd get someone post here complaining that there are never any single seats if you board at Atlanta.

It would also significantly slow boarding since youd have conductors and car attendant trying to coordinate (or not) where seats are available.

Conductors can go overboard in keeping seats and cars empty but on a route like the crescent that really does fill up between Atlanta and Charlotte it makes sense.

 

[railiner]

No, from a policy point of view, what's needed is to ensure that everyone who wants to ride a train can find a seat, and do it in a financially sustainable (for the company) way. Yes, selling the extra seat brings the company the revenue, but it prevents another passenger from being able to take the train. If enough seats are sequestered this way, potential passengers may find the trains always "sold out" and the general public will get the idea that train travel is not a reliable mode of travel. Furthermore, filling up the limited available rolling stock with paid-for empty seats just so some passengers don't have to deal with a seatmate is not really a good way to encourage new service. As I previously posted, a 2-1 business class product with advance seat assignment would provide accommodation for solo travelers who can't abide by having a seatmate and don't want to pay for a roomette.

However, if one is really serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, then all vehicles should be run to full capacity. In other words, the buses, trains, or planes don't leave until the vehicle is full. All of the interstates should be HOV lanes only, and if a driver wants to use them, they need to stop at a "slug line" and pick up "slugs" to fill up the car. In fact, there probably shouldn't be first class "hard product" (i.e. roomier seats or excessive privacy) on any form of transport, as reducing the passenger load increases the GHG emissions per passenger mile. Sure, travel will become more unpleasant, but that could have GHG benefits by further reducing travel in general, and thus vehicle miles traveled and thus GHG emissions.

Sounds like your solution would be for everyone to just stay home, and learn, dine, play, and work from there. I personally wouldn't want to live in a "virtual reality" world....

 

[Bigpaw]

I’ve never understood why Amtrak seats lack a middle armrest. It could be the type that can be put in the “up“ position like the airlines use.

I personally would hate a middle armrest unless it could be put up. There are many times when I travel and I have the luxury of having both seats and I can stretch out on an overnight. I wouldn’t be able to do that if there was a stationary middle armrest.

 

[me_little_me]

As to reserving and paying for second seats, there is no reason why it could not be done if the train is not close to full so once there were a certain percentage of seats sold, no more second seats would be allowed. As to what else could be done, Amtrak needs the money to have sufficient cars so cars can be added to trains if a scheduled train is close to being full before it begins.
But having sufficient cars seems also to be an internal issue. Witness the failure to start using the VL2 sleepers when they first came online both to use that as an opportunity to start refurbs of VL1s as well as to add additional slepers on full routes.
Every sold out train is a lost revenue option for Amtrak and they seem in the past to have lost a lot of revenue opportunities by failing to have sufficient cars, failing to stock sufficient items in the cafe, and failing to promote travel opportunities like ATL to NOL where the trains run with a lot fewer passengers and Amtrak does not sell onboard upgrades or promote daytime sleepers.

 

[Sidney]

I never understood why Amtrak won't promote upgrades to a sleeper from Coach once onboard. I known they used to and I've gotten some decent deals. If there are empty sleepers for the entire length of the journey why doesn't Amtrak promote this and give Coach passengers an opportunity to upgrade? It would be revenue they wouldn't have otherwise. I have never seen an answer to this question.

I mentioned in an earlier post I was on 27 from Chicago to Portland earlier this year. Every roomette was taken and there was only one bedroom occupied the entire trip. I would imagine at an upgrade of $100 those bedrooms would be occupied by roomette occupants who wouldn't normally use a bedroom because of the high cost. If I was told this at the start of my trip I could upgrade I would do it and I m sure others would do the same adding extra revenue. Some roomettes would be freed up allowing Coach passengers to upgrade at a reduced price. I am sure if given the opportunity to upgrade to a roomette from Coach at a reduction many people would do it.

Is there any reasonable explanation as to why Amtrak would turn down extra revenue?

 

[TrackWalker]

Sidney, your post would make an excellent letter to send to the Head of Marketing and Business Development for a response as you've had a personal first hand experience with the issue.

 

[Ziv]

I hate not having a middle armrest but it HAS to be able to be rotated out of the way like an airline seat, not just for larger passengers easier access in and out, but for safety. For female passengers especially, though not solely, it allows some sort of separation from the person next to them. I am a big guy, I don't want to be "big footing" the person next to me after I fall asleep.

I personally would hate a middle armrest unless it could be put up. There are many times when I travel and I have the luxury of having both seats and I can stretch out on an overnight. I wouldn’t be able to do that if there was a stationary middle armrest.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For female passengers especially, though not solely, it allows some sort of separation from the person next to them.

Yes, and I’m a male and I’ve been in extremely uncomfortable situations when seated next to both male and female passengers in the dining car.

I really hope seating passengers next to each other in the diner never returns. (I’m fine with making new friends across the table).

 

[railiner]

Is there any reasonable explanation as to why Amtrak would turn down extra revenue?

I can't think of any...in the past, sometimes it was just the whim of a 'lazy' conductor, not wanting to do the extra work of selling. They would often play it off, telling the passenger to 'check with the next crew'. But nowadays, if you have a phone signal, you can upgrade yourself, right?

 

[jis]

Yes, and I’m a male and I’ve been in extremely uncomfortable situations when seated next to both male and female passengers in the dining car.

I really hope seating passengers next to each other in the diner never returns. (I’m fine with making new friends across the table).

It is particularly uncomfortable when the woman sitting next to you starts hitting on you. Frankly, she must be pretty desperate to be doing so to me, but it is a pretty strange world. @penny may remember one particular incident where she was sitting opposite me at the same table. But there have been others.

I can imagine that single women may face such situations an order of magnitude more often than me.

 

[Sidney]

I can't think of any...in the past, sometimes it was just the whim of a 'lazy' conductor, not wanting to do the extra work of selling. They would often play it off, telling the passenger to 'check with the next crew'. But nowadays, if you have a phone signal, you can upgrade yourself, right?

Of course I can call Amtrak and ask for an upgrade,but there would not be any discount. My point was,if there are empty sleepers on board why not sell them at a discount once aboard the train to fill them up? It used to be done.

 

[jis]

Of course I can call Amtrak and ask for an upgrade,but there would not be any discount. My point was,if there are empty sleepers on board why not sell them at a discount once aboard the train to fill them up? It used to be done.

Either way the reservation system has to be programmed to offer the discounted rate, since it holds the single source of occupancy information. Even if a Conductor did it, they have to go into the reservation system and do the upgrade. And once you have to program the system anyway, might as well let people do it themselves.

I have been told that the reason it was discontinued is that someone in Amtrak sales believed that they were losing revenue from possible en route sales because people already on the train were grabbing them with deep discount. Of course none of us have the actual data to validate or refute that claim. So who knows?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Of course I can call Amtrak and ask for an upgrade,but there would not be any discount. My point was,if there are empty sleepers on board why not sell them at a discount once aboard the train to fill them up? It used to be done.

Airlines will sometimes offer me a discounted upgrade to 1st class when I check in on the app.

Also hotels will often over-sell cheaper rooms and then “upgrade” a customer to a suite when they arrive. Amtrak could do that with bedrooms if they wanted to.

 

[TrackWalker]

...I have been told that the reason it was discontinued is that someone in Amtrak sales believed that they were losing revenue from possible en route sales because people already on the train were grabbing them with deep discount. Of course none of us have the actual data to validate or refute that claim. So who knows?

Perhaps the Head of Marketing and Business Development?

 

[jis]

Airlines will sometimes offer me a discounted upgrade to 1st class when I check in on the app.

Also hotels will often over-sell cheaper rooms and then “upgrade” a customer to a suite when they arrive. Amtrak could do that with bedrooms if they wanted to.

Indeed. It is mostly a "policy" thing and AFAIK there are no significant technical impediments to such a thing being implemented. At most it might require a bit of additional manpower to program the release of accommodation for discount booking.

But as I mentioned earlier, the policy and motivation for having whatever policy is chosen is the thing that needs to be resolved first within Amtrak's revenue and marketing departments. Ultimately it is the guy in Amtrak who is in charge of managing passenger business P&L has to decide.