Is there a way to buy a one day pass to the metro lounge?

[ColdRain&Snow]

Nothing new. Nothing insightful. Nothing informative. Cue the yawn.   

 

[AlanB]

Bill,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your query, but between responding to the attacks on my personal character and a couple of hours at work, I didn't have time to respond to you earlier.

...

I also like how you skipped right over the fact that I get priority boarding in Boston whether I use a Redcap or not, since of course that takes the wind right out of your sails.

How do you do that? I've only used the CA and Acela F twice out of BOS, but each time the only pax permitted to board ahead of general boarding were those being escorted by Red Caps. Others, including F pax, were told to wait by the agent at the ribbon barrier.

Last I knew that was the policy at Boston, but I freely admit that information is now about 4 or 5 months old. So it is possible that it has since changed.

Boston loves to keep changing the rules up there for reasons that are unclear. Years ago, anyone with access to the lounge could pre-board and you were brought down as a group. Then they went to no preboarding at all for a while. Then they went back to First class/sleeper pax get preboarding.

It also seems that some gate attendants either like to make up their own rules or don't know the rules.

But, given that being the case, why then do you use a Red Cap when you have minimal luggage? Believe me, I would not use a Red Cap ever if it were just for handling luggage. My wife and I travel light, and not needing luggage assistance is a huge benefit of that behavior (for convenience, not cost). I don't use bell service at hotels, or curbside luggage service at airports (never check bags anyway). The only place I have ever used a Red Cap was at BOS, and the only reason was to get early boarding and hopefully grab a decent seat in F (of which there are relatively few). The only "luggage" we had was a single, 21" roll-aboard. I certainly do not need help with that.

Part of the reason at this point in time is simply because Boston is inconsistent and constantly changing their policies. So rather than worry about what attendant is guarding the gate and what rules they may or may not choose to enforce, I just go with a Redcap. I also do it because carrying my bags up the stairs to the lounge is a hassle, I'm getting lazy. And I do it now because I know all the guys there and, contrary to the belief of some, I know that I'm not hurting/depriving someone else of Redcap service.

I actually started using Redcaps in Boston which, save on days when Mom is with me and her knee is bothering her and we get a Redcap in NY, is the only place where I use Redcaps after Kevin K & I had an interesting experience in Boston with a gate attendant.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Acela needs pre-assigned seats. It does not have to be every seat. It could be half the F car, and two of the four BC cars. I'd be willing to pay a service charge for the privilege. When I pay $300+ for travel for two, and purchase that travel weeks in advance, I don't want to have to bribe a baggage handler to get decent seat (and maybe still not get it). With assigned seats, the whole Red Cap bribery deal goes away.

Bill, I wouldn't argue against this at all. And perhaps after the eTicketing is done, this will be something that Amtrak finally does do. After all, they still have the software available to them and the displays in the Acela cars to indicate occupied seats. I for one loved the short period of time during which I was able to select my seat when booking.

Mind you, this wouldn't change my mind in Boston, I'd probably still use a Redcap to go out to the train just to avoid the hassles noted above.

 

[AlanB]

Nothing new. Nothing insightful. Nothing informative. Cue the yawn.

Same here. You still haven't proved a thing! You tell me that my observations are anecdotes, yet somehow your lopsided, one sided story from Seattle is supposed to be fact. I at least have more details about my use of the Redcap than you have for your story. So if mine is but an anecdote, your's doesn't even measure at all on the Richter scale of evidence.

All you have is your fantasy that people aren't being helped; but not a shred of evidence! Yet you run around accusing people of things that you cannot prove! And there is the real difference right there. You've made accusations that you cannot even hope to prove, and then decide to sit in judgement of others and tell them that their evidence is nothing but an anecdote.

You've made the charge, now back it up with real facts and not nonsense about 40 trips in 8 months and lopsided observations in Seattle that prove nothing. Prove that people aren't being helped or stop posting in this topic!

 

[AlanB]

I'll repeat myself again.

You've made the charge, now back it up with real facts and not nonsense about 40 trips in 8 months and lopsided observations in Seattle that prove nothing. Prove that people aren't being helped or stop posting in this topic!

 

[Ryan]

Things don't work that way here in America.

If you're going to try and claim that someone isn't allowed to do something, the burden of proof is on you to show that it's necessary.

The disconnect is at a very fundamental level. You claim that unless the activity is specifically permitted by Amtrak, it's against "the rules".

My claim is that unless it is expressly forbidden, Red Caps are allowed to serve whomever they please.

Since obviously, Red Caps serve people without bags all the time, the real world seems to agree with Alan and I.

You're entitled to distort these made up rules in your head all you like, but I wouldn't suggest trying to enforce them on anyone around you.

 

[Ryan]

Nope, you had it wrong the first time and merely repeating your claim it doesn't substantiate its efficacy.

That street goes both ways.

I'm still waiting for a citation of any type from you that indicates Amtrak thinks that Red Caps shouldn't be used in this manner.

Alan is still waiting for some proof that able bodied people using a Red Cap is causing people with baggage to not get the assistance that they need.

I suspect we'll be waiting for quite a long time...

they are acting with 100% certainty every time that they are in no way ever negatively impacting others in need. And if they can't provide this guarantee 100% of the time, then I am saying to put the interests of others ahead of their own self-interests.

That's a ridiculous bar that is impossible to achieve.

Provide some proof that it is negatively impacting others and we'll talk.

 

[Big Iron]

I think this debate is more about perceived elitism than perceived need. That first class passengers are using their monetary clout to get ahead of the line or are more deserving of preferental treatment. If most common carriers felt that way then there would be only one class of sevice.

Alan cites an example of where he was recognized by a red cap as a frequent first class traveller and was given an escort to the train. I admire the red cap for supporting Amtrak's need to create more revenue by providing excellent customer service. I admire Alan for supporting a transportation option that he values, partially because of the way he is treated by its employees.

The debate about who needs help and what type of help is boiling down to a black and white discussion, a zero sum game. If you don't need help and use it then you are denying someone that does. There is no way to prove in this court of public opinion which is true.

Red caps are best positioned to know who they need to serve and how they need to serve them. If Amtrak saw this as a problem then they would try to solve it.

 

[AlanB]

  If it's impossible to know for sure how much you're negatively impacting others, why not just err on the side of putting the needs of others ahead of your own self-interests, some of which are awfully hard to defend such as laziness? It's just not a major sacrifice to make. Not in my book anyway.     

Because, once again, I do know for sure that I'm not negatively impacting others in Boston. Not withstanding your refusal to believe me, I'm quite sure that I'm not impacting others when I ask for help in Boston.

You have decided otherwise and have made accusations about me and my character. In this country we believe in the standard that people are innocent until proven guilty. To date you have offered no proof of anything, only your wild accusations. You will either cease commenting in this topic or your will provide absolute proof, not your observations.

Let me be perfectly clear here so that there is no misunderstanding. You will NOT post again in this topic unless it is to offer absolute proof!

 

[Ispolkom]

  If it's impossible to know for sure how much you're negatively impacting others, why not just err on the side of putting the needs of others ahead of your own self-interests, some of which are awfully hard to defend such as laziness? It's just not a major sacrifice to make. Not in my book anyway.     

So I should never sit on the lower level of a Superliner, because that might harm some theoretical passenger with limited mobility? I should never book the family bedroom because that might inconvenience a possible family that would prefer to book that room? Heck, I shouldn't even book a bedroom because that might push the price up past what some imaginary couple can afford to pay?

Your rectitude seems excessively fastidious to me. In my experience redcaps (including those in Boston) are very good at setting priorities, and helping those in order of need.

 

[Railroad Bill]

If it's impossible to know for sure how much you're negatively impacting others, why not just err on the side of putting the needs of others ahead of your own self-interests, some of which are awfully hard to defend such as laziness? It's just not a major sacrifice to make. Not in my book anyway.

So I should never sit on the lower level of a Superliner, because that might harm some theoretical passenger with limited mobility? I should never book the family bedroom because that might inconvenience a possible family that would prefer to book that room? Heck, I shouldn't even book a bedroom because that might push the price up past what some imaginary couple can afford to pay?

Your rectitude seems excessively fastidious to me. In my experience redcaps (including those in Boston) are very good at setting priorities, and helping those in order of need.

Conductors will move you out of Lower Level if they determine the space is needed for mobility impaired passengers, so I don't think that's an issue. That's fair that your observations have shown that Red Caps are prioritizing correctly. My observations have shown me differently at times, hence my concerns. 

Since my wife and I always use LL Seating on the CL as we ride CLE to TOL and return, we have never been asked to move upstairs due to mobility problems of another passenger. Since buying those LL tickets online, there is no way for the computer to gauge whether one is handicapped or unable to climb the stairs.

Although I am able to climb the stairs, my wife has mobility problems with her ankle and it is much easier for her to sit downstairs for the short ride to TOL from CLE.

Yes, we do climb the stairs in TOL to get to our bedrooms (AGR borders dictate this moonlight move :lol: ).

Thus my question is: how will a conductor move someone with an LL ticket upstairs, if he/she is unable to determine whether the person sitting in LL has a handicap or disability?

If someone with a mobility problem needs an LL seat, they should have such a ticket and therefore are entitled to an LL seat. If Amtrak sells those tickets to anyone who buys one, then is there an ethical problem here?? Again, Amtrak provides a service (Red Cap or LL Seating-- and those who use the service must determine whether they are "With The Spirit"

Our experience in Chicago and Washington has been there are plenty of Redcaps available to serve the needs of those who want or need it and therefore, a problem does not exist. A generalization perhaps; but it would seem obvious from our observations on many trips we have taken through these stations.

Perhaps someone might do a PhD dissertation on this subject, but then again, it would fall into the category most often reserved for dissertations-- Trivial Pursuit

Mr. CW&S certainly is entitled to his opinion about any given matter, but name calling and unfounded accusations do not enhance the educational nature of the AU Group. May we all Rest In Peace

 

[jebr]

Again, Amtrak provides a service (Red Cap or LL Seating-- and those who use the service must determine whether they are "With The Spirit"

Here's my beef with this argument: no one is claiming that LL seating is unduly restricting anyone. They sell them online as an advantage if you want well-appointed restrooms within the car or accessible seating for passengers with mobility impairments, along with stating that they provide convenience. They don't restrict you from booking them because anyone may want that convenience. Thus, there's no spirit to break with sitting in the lower level unless, for some reason, you're sitting on the lower level despite not wanting "convenience" or not having a mobility impairment (and, if you don't meet either of those two criteria, I'm guessing you're already choosing to sit in the upper level.)

However, the red caps are advertised as baggage assistance online. They're not advertised as "cut-the-line" people. Thus, the spirit of the red caps is to provide assistance to passengers with baggage. Presumably, they're also being used for people with special needs (as Amtrak says that a staff member will accommodate them, and the red caps seem like the most logical way to do that.) There is nothing even remotely stating that their purpose is to cut the line, or even something that would suggest that Amtrak would want them to be used as such.

 

[white rabbitt]

I haven't seen any name-calling going on here. But as one poster pointed out earlier today about whether using help when you don't need it delays or denigrates service levels to those who do, "There is no way to prove in this court of public opinion which is true." I agree that it cannot be ruled out. And that's enough for me to have strong concerns about putting one's self ahead of others here. Insofar as Conductors moving a passenger so someone with mobility problems can take their seat in the LL, my thinking was more along the lines of the obvious. If I'm sitting in the LL with no other seats available and someone with crutches boards, I agree that our conscience should demand that we move out of consideration for that passenger. But if we refuse to do that, a Conductor wouldn't think twice about making it happen. As it should be.

ColdRain&Snow' some people just cant do the long walk,

i use red caps in chicago just to avoid the long walk into the station

my legs are not great so the red cap ride into the amtrak station from the train

helps me, i am not gonna walk if i dont have to

as for the metro lounge the perk of the lounge is u get to pre board that is a perk u get from the lounge

 

[white rabbitt]

I haven't seen any name-calling going on here. But as one poster pointed out earlier today about whether using help when you don't need it delays or denigrates service levels to those who do, "There is no way to prove in this court of public opinion which is true." I agree that it cannot be ruled out. And that's enough for me to have strong concerns about putting one's self ahead of others here. Insofar as Conductors moving a passenger so someone with mobility problems can take their seat in the LL, my thinking was more along the lines of the obvious. If I'm sitting in the LL with no other seats available and someone with crutches boards, I agree that our conscience should demand that we move out of consideration for that passenger. But if we refuse to do that, a Conductor wouldn't think twice about making it happen. As it should be.

ColdRain&Snow' some people just cant do the long walk,

i use red caps in chicago just to avoid the long walk into the station

my legs are not great so the red cap ride into the amtrak station from the train

helps me, i am not gonna walk if i dont have to

If you're having problems with your legs or they are not serving you at the standard of a normal, healthy, functioning adult, then that would certainly constitute a genuine need in my mind. You do need the help in this case, and you're asking for and getting it. I don't see a problem there.

dont know about ny or boston but in chicago the train is a half mile walk to the station so anyone takeing a red cap is justified dont matter if they are able bodied or not

 

[Big Iron]

I haven't seen any name-calling going on here. But as one poster pointed out earlier today about whether using help when you don't need it delays or denigrates service levels to those who do, "There is no way to prove in this court of public opinion which is true." I agree that it cannot be ruled out. And that's enough for me to have strong concerns about putting one's self ahead of others here. Insofar as Conductors moving a passenger so someone with mobility problems can take their seat in the LL, my thinking was more along the lines of the obvious. If I'm sitting in the LL with no other seats available and someone with crutches boards, I agree that our conscience should demand that we move out of consideration for that passenger. But if we refuse to do that, a Conductor wouldn't think twice about making it happen. As it should be.

ColdRain&Snow' some people just cant do the long walk,

i use red caps in chicago just to avoid the long walk into the station

my legs are not great so the red cap ride into the amtrak station from the train

helps me, i am not gonna walk if i dont have to

as for the metro lounge the perk of the lounge is u get to pre board that is a perk u get from the lounge

Wabbit, don't answer if you don't want to but as a user of red cap service have you ever not gotten the appropriate level of service because of a person, or persons, using a red cap to butt in line? Just curious, again, don't answer unless you want to :hi: If there are other viewers that needed red cap service has this ever happened to you?

 

[saxman]

I would like to hear stories of where actual passengers in need are being denied service because a Redcap was too busy with able bodied passengers who didn't really need the service. Apparently there are tons but I haven't read a single anecdote on here. In 6 pages There is not been one.

There is no way anyone can prove, aside from their own observations, that anyone has been left because a red cap helped someone that didn't need help.

There is no way anyone can prove, aside from their own observations, that there is a problem with passengers being left behind.

So anecdotes are the only way to "prove" each others claims. Nuf said.

 

[white rabbitt]

I haven't seen any name-calling going on here. But as one poster pointed out earlier today about whether using help when you don't need it delays or denigrates service levels to those who do, "There is no way to prove in this court of public opinion which is true." I agree that it cannot be ruled out. And that's enough for me to have strong concerns about putting one's self ahead of others here. Insofar as Conductors moving a passenger so someone with mobility problems can take their seat in the LL, my thinking was more along the lines of the obvious. If I'm sitting in the LL with no other seats available and someone with crutches boards, I agree that our conscience should demand that we move out of consideration for that passenger. But if we refuse to do that, a Conductor wouldn't think twice about making it happen. As it should be.

ColdRain&Snow' some people just cant do the long walk,

i use red caps in chicago just to avoid the long walk into the station

my legs are not great so the red cap ride into the amtrak station from the train

helps me, i am not gonna walk if i dont have to

as for the metro lounge the perk of the lounge is u get to pre board that is a perk u get from the lounge

Wabbit, don't answer if you don't want to but as a user of red cap service have you ever not gotten the appropriate level of service because of a person, or persons, using a red cap to butt in line? Just curious, again, don't answer unless you want to :hi: If there are other viewers that needed red cap service has this ever happened to you?

'no there are plenty of red caps in chicago and i we have picked up other seniors who flaged the red cap who stoped to get them also

 

[Ryan]

Not to assert the obvious, but the experiences of a very small number of people from AU

Those "small number of people" represent thousands of trips covering hundreds of thousands (probably millions of miles) of Amtrak travel. Heck, in this thread you've talked about how well travelled you are, yet can't produce anything.

Short of omniscience, there's simply no way to truly know the negative impact that this practice may be having on others in need

And therein lies the difference between you and I (and the whole reason that I felt compelled to join the conversation). Given that lack of knowledge, you're casting a heck of a lot of judgement on folks here based on nothing but a gut feeling. That ain't cool.

So then the question becomes whether or not your own self-interest should override its potential to negatively impact others who do need the help.

Given that the potential is virtually non-existant, I'm OK with it.

That said, I got to the train first and got a pair of seats the old fashioned way in PHL by standing in line for the half hour between when the track was posted and when we got let down there.

 

[MiRider]

YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL of anyone beside yourself.

DO NOT do things you believe are wrong and don't worry about what anyone else is doing unless it affects you directly.

No one at Amtrak is going to question people as to why they're using any kind of assistance, Red Cap or not.

You will never know why a person used a Red Cap unless they tell you and, at that point, what difference does make?

Until Amtrak implements and publicly posts policies that detail who may or may not ask for assistance or use Red Caps, this entire discussion is ridiculous.

reason for edit: aggravation

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

LINK

No where does it say for Pax who are impaired only .

I have 2 Blown knees and When I am on the train again Ill used them as needed .

LINK

this points out that AMtk staff are available at stations to help . It no where mentions red caps by name .

Red cap ..... Sky Cap

Hmm not to be pesky but If I was a lay person . Then I would assume they are the same Idea . ( not job or person !)

To help anyone who wants there bags ect taken care of ..

 

[fairviewroad]

First, let me start off by saying I have no particular horse in this race. I have never used a Redcap, and I really don't care one whit

how others use them. But somewhere 3 or 4 pages ago, amidst the back and forth on the proper role of Redcaps, I decided to...

you know...ask Amtrak. So I emailed them a question in what I thought was as neutral a tone as possible. Here was my question:

I have heard that at stations with Red Caps it is possible to ask the Red Cap to take you to the train early even if you do not have anyluggage or otherwise require assistance. Is this correct?

And here is the answer:

Dear fairviewroad,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Yes it is possible for a Redcap to take you to the train, Redcaps assist individuals in many ways.

We hope this information will assist you.

Sincerely,

[name redacted]

Amtrak Customer Service

Now, you can certainly quibble with the wording of my question...but as I said I tried to pose it neutrally. It's possible that you

could get a different answer if you asked it differently. But my take is that unambiguously it is within the role of the Red Caps

to take people to the train early even if they do not have luggage or otherwise need assistance. YMMV.

 

[MiRider]

First, let me start off by saying I have no particular horse in this race. I have never used a Redcap, and I really don't care one whit

how others use them. But somewhere 3 or 4 pages ago, amidst the back and forth on the proper role of Redcaps, I decided to...

you know...ask Amtrak. So I emailed them a question in what I thought was as neutral a tone as possible. Here was my question:

I have heard that at stations with Red Caps it is possible to ask the Red Cap to take you to the train early even if you do not have anyluggage or otherwise require assistance. Is this correct?

And here is the answer:

Dear fairviewroad,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Yes it is possible for a Redcap to take you to the train, Redcaps assist individuals in many ways.

We hope this information will assist you.

Sincerely,

[name redacted]

Amtrak Customer Service

Now, you can certainly quibble with the wording of my question...but as I said I tried to pose it neutrally. It's possible that you

could get a different answer if you asked it differently. But my take is that unambiguously it is within the role of the Red Caps

to take people to the train early even if they do not have luggage or otherwise need assistance. YMMV.

Awesome and thank you for doing that!

 

[Ryan]

Seconded.

I guess that settles that.

 

[pennyk]

Ditto.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

And here I had thought (and hoped) that the debate had died over the weekend. Hope it hasn't been resurrected. h34r: